Consequences of ~not~ implanting or castrating hob?

[caitmonster]

I did a search on the forum and only turned up a post from 2015, so I'm curious if anyone knows anything more on this topic. Rocky is 4 years old and intact. I had him implanted about a month into his first rut with Suprelorin, as required by his breeder. The implant seemingly lasted about 2 years, as this year has been the first time he's come back into season since then.

I asked his breeder (Scarlett Gray-Saling), since it wasn't specified in her contract, if he could go without being implanted. The reasons being, he's much less frantic than his first rut, and with daily evening walks and exercise in the yard, we don't need to rescue our sanity. Also, I really dislike the vet I had to go to for the implant--not our regular--he grumbled about me feeding Stella & Chewys [at the time--I can't imagine what he'd think about frankenprey] and suggested Totally Ferret instead, and put me on the defensive the whole time; additionally, I'm just nervous about sedation in general, which he uses to insert the implant.

Anyway, Scarlett said yes, as long as we're comfortable she's fine with him being left intact and un-implanted.

However, I happened to be chatting with his granddaddy's breeder--and I'm curious if anyone else is familiar with her; it's Sárközi Réka Darinka from Bajnok Ferretry in Hungary--and she said that being left intact can cause adrenal disease.

I've never heard this before. I do try to manage Rocky's artificial light levels with blackout curtains over his cage, but my understanding was that artificial light stimulating gonads that aren't there is one of the main causes for adrenal, and that intact hobs mainly only have the potential to contract testicular cancer. Any thoughts?

[Charlie]

Are you able to find another vet to do the implant? The vet I go to, doesn't sedate my ferret. She just numbs the area and then she injects the implant. He is occupied by eating his salmon oil and stays still for the implant. I was under the impression that ferrets can still get adrenal disease whether they are intact or not. I waited until my ferret was older before I neutered him. Now I wish I hadn't. But my sister has an intact female ferret that she implants yearly for 2 reasons, to chemically spay her and also to decrease the chances of her getting adrenal disease. I also implant mine to give him a better chance of not getting adrenal disease or to at least slow the disease down.

[unclejoe]

2 of my My ferret vets used gas to do the implant and one didn’t sedate. If you have to go back to that vet, just nod your head and say uh huh to suggestions. LOL. I neutered one ferret late, and he still got adrenal, but unfortunately that was at the time when implants weren’t available due to shipping/supply issues.
I would recommend it for neutered males.

[Corvidophile]

My vet neither numbs nor sedates, he just raw dogs it in. Which is perhaps stupid, as one time my ferret squirmed in such a way as to dislodge the implant right back out before the vet could apply the glue and the implant went down the sink.

[unclejoe]

One of my vets didn't fully inject a melatonin implant once, but those were only $20 at the vet. PVO sent me some ferratonin implants and i did them myself after that. Never missed once and no sedation. des implants are almost twice that size and 10x the cost (PVO got the ferratonin for $10 back then). It amazed me that I could stick a needle that size into a fert and he barely noticed because he was so distracted licking up some oil.  I'm a 5 gallon blood donor and the des needle (11 gauge) is 3x as big as a transfusion needle.  (16 gauge)

[caitmonster]

I would love to find another suitable vet for this, and I may have to... unfortunately the next closest one who specializes in ferrets is at least an hour away. This particular vet I went to is the kind that takes your animal into the back and doesn't let you see, or know, what's going on; additionally, when I was first brought into the exam room, the vet tech picked Rocky up and was started walking into the back with him without telling me anything--I had to ask what was going on to get any information. (Apparently they do a fecal test on all exotics as a matter of course; this is fine I suppose but I do not like that I wasn't informed about this ahead of time, nor was I even asked if anything was abnormal, which it wasn't. This is in comparison to my regular vet who does absolutely nothing without asking me first. FWIW, I'm a very chill person in real life; I just appreciate people who get my input before doing anything with my animals, haha. )

This vet is of the opinion that the needle gauge is so large, and the implant so expensive, that anything but full sedation is not possible.

Re: implanting to prevent adrenal; it seems this is done mainly as a preventative for ferrets who HAVE been neutered, rather than intact ones, correct? If Rocky stays intact his whole life, to the best of my knowledge, the only real concern is testicular cancer. And, from some of the older conversations I've been reading on here, most people believe that there may very well be a genetic factor for AD--but given Rocky's lines, I think I can rule that out fairly confidently in his case.

[unclejoe]

When I was in the ER last month, the same thing happened to me. After an ultrasound, I sat in the waiting room for almost 2 hours before they came to get me. Follow me, we need to get ready for a Scan. What kind of scan? A CT. What do I need a CT for? I'm not sure. I was just told to bring you back. Okaaaay... I already strongly suspected what the problem was and said so when I walked in. Once I signed on the dotted line it was difficult to get answers to direct questions until the dx was confirmed. My current vet is much more open and respects both my knowledge, experience and opinions regarding my ferts. And believe me, this forum in its prime is where I gained a great deal of knowledge.

Sorry I don't have any stats on AD in intact vs. altered ferts, but I'm sure the odds are greatly diminished if left intact. I have never heard it said before that remaining intact increases the odds of AD.

[Charlie]

I have to drive 2 hours and 15 min to get my ferret's DES implant. A 1 hour drive isn't that bad. lol Yeah, sorry, I don't like that they take your animal to the back and doesn't let you know what's going on. Not cool. I have been seeing my vet for the last 30 years and the only time I wasn't able to be with my animal was because of covid and people were not allowed in and had to wait out in the parking lot. That happened at my local vet as well as the vet I get the DES implant from but I have met that vet previous before covid started so I was ok with having to wait in the parking lot.

Rocky will have a better chance of not getting AD because he is intact but there's no guarantee. You could still implant to chemically neuter him and decrease his chances of getting AD even more. Do you only have Rocky right now or do you also have other ferrets? If he is less aggressive when he is in season then that's good. Maybe you may want to just implant him every other year then. Does Rocky get rat tail? My sister has noticed that she needs to implant yearly because her ferret will get rat tail when the implant wears off.

[Thérèse]

OK, I will give you my comments based on my memory of things I learned at a IFCA (international ferret congress of australia) health symposium back in about 2009. One of the presenters told us of an English guy who I think was called James something. This James did a study on the health etc. of ferrets way back in the 80s (in the UK) and then repeated the study again 5 or 10 years later. In the first study both adrenal disease and insulinoma were neglible health issues for ferrets, ie. he only came across one or 2 cases of either or both. In the 2nd study those 2 diseases had become the most common health problems for ferrets. The difference in the two studies was that in the first one nearly all the ferrets were kept by ferreters but in the 2nd one most of them were pets and consequently their care and lifestyles were very different because in the intervening years ferrets had become popular as pets they were now being kept indoors, fed pet food etc.

Some time later Bob Church, a Canadian? who lives in the US, did a worldwide study on ferrets and their wild relatives (polecats) and found a definite link between feeding processed food and insulinoma. I don't recall a definitive link to specific causes for adrenal disease but do know that the belief that early desexing was a big contributor originated somewhere. Other studies must have been done to the extent that addressing hormonal issues is the basis for most of the treatments for adrenal disease.

I think the causes are less clear because several factors can contribute (like unnatural light conditions) and because many have little experience with intact ferrets they don't see the effects of lighting so clearly (when it triggers a rut at the wrong time you see very obviously how light can matter to your ferret) and consequently adrenal disease initially was thought to be caused by desexing without thought for light conditions but then when some intact ferrets or late alters got it without people considering how much light their ferrets had been subjected to, the cause and effect of desexing became muddied.

I think early desexing is definitely a cause. If you can keep your guy intact and keep his lighting as natural as possible, that will be your best bet but until the issues are better understood there are no guarantees. Even way back in James initial study both adrenal and insulinoma did occur, they were just rarities, so if we can get the care factors right, they should again, hopefully become less prevalent.

Just my thoughts.

[Charlie]

May 19, 2022 17:24:03 GMT -5 Thérèse said:

OK, I will give you my comments based on my memory of things I learned at a IFCA (international ferret congress of australia) health symposium back in about 2009. One of the presenters told us of an English guy who I think was called James something. This James did a study on the health etc. of ferrets way back in the 80s (in the UK) and then repeated the study again 5 or 10 years later. In the first study both adrenal disease and insulinoma were neglible health issues for ferrets, ie. he only came across one or 2 cases of either or both. In the 2nd study those 2 diseases had become the most common health problems for ferrets. The difference in the two studies was that in the first one nearly all the ferrets were kept by ferreters but in the 2nd one most of them were pets and consequently their care and lifestyles were very different because in the intervening years ferrets had become popular as pets they were now being kept indoors, fed pet food etc.

Some time later Bob Church, a Canadian? who lives in the US, did a worldwide study on ferrets and their wild relatives (polecats) and found a definite link between feeding processed food and insulinoma. I don't recall a definitive link to specific causes for adrenal disease but do know that the belief that early desexing was a big contributor originated somewhere. Other studies must have been done to the extent that addressing hormonal issues is the basis for most of the treatments for adrenal disease.

I think the causes are less clear because several factors can contribute (like unnatural light conditions) and because many have little experience with intact ferrets they don't see the effects of lighting so clearly (when it triggers a rut at the wrong time you see very obviously how light can matter to your ferret) and consequently adrenal disease initially was thought to be caused by desexing without thought for light conditions but then when some intact ferrets or late alters got it without people considering how much light their ferrets had been subjected to, the cause and effect of desexing became muddied.

I think early desexing is definitely a cause. If you can keep your guy intact and keep his lighting as natural as possible, that will be your best bet but until the issues are better understood there are no guarantees. Even way back in James initial study both adrenal and insulinoma did occur, they were just rarities, so if we can get the care factors right, they should again, hopefully become less prevalent.

Just my thoughts.

This doesn't surprise me that the ferrets 10 years ago were less likely to get insulinoma and adrenal disease, especially in the UK and Europe.  They used them as working animals and not as pets.  But when you have ferret mills much like puppy mills, you have poor breeding practices and early desexing causing a whole host of problems down the road.  I'm so glad I did my research and came across this site to read more about ferrets and their cousins the polecats so I can do my best in trying to keep my ferret as healthy as possible and keeping him as a pet.

[caitmonster]

Thanks, Thérèse. That's been my understanding, given all the indeterminate factors. Thank you for passing on the details about those studies.

Charlie, yes he is our only child. He's never gotten rat tail, interestingly. In fact, his first implant lasted about two years with no indication of coming into season at all during that time. Other than being very very busy, and peeing wherever he pleases (which is the one difficult thing for me to deal with as a clean freak!), his personality doesn't change.

[Charlie]

May 22, 2022 10:32:09 GMT -5 caitmonster said:

Charlie, yes he is our only child. He's never gotten rat tail, interestingly. In fact, his first implant lasted about two years with no indication of coming into season at all during that time. Other than being very very busy, and peeing wherever he pleases (which is the one difficult thing for me to deal with as a clean freak!), his personality doesn't change.

You know Rocky best.  I thought Charlie was getting rat tail but he didn't, it may have looked like the fur under the tail was thinning but not enough to be rat tail.  That's great Rocky's implant lasted that long!  You will know if and when he would need another implant.  All you can do is look for the signs and then make that decision to implant again.