One of my ferrets is an "alpha", I'm not sure what to do

[bedslug]

Hello, it's my first time here since I generally just lurk in forums/sites of all kinds when doing research or just browsing, but lately I'm at a complete loss and instead of continually harassing the only person I know who has ferrets I figured I'd ask a whole lot of people who have ferrets and likely much more experience than I do.

I have three ferrets, one of them I had a year or so before the others. He's my soul, really. He will never bite no matter what, no matter where - he will follow me at all times, climb into my lap the moment I sit, sleep on me all of the time, sit on my shoulder while I walk around - you name it. All he does to my face is give me kisses, he's a precious little angel and I'd do anything for him.

When I moved out to live on my own with him, I had no cage to keep him in overnight so he'd just sleep with me. At the time, he was still pretty young and I felt like I couldn't play with him the way he wanted or needed, so I made the decision to get him a friend.

It was supposed to just be one friend, but I ended up getting a pair. I remember how excited he was when he met them, and how good things were. One of the two was a little younger than the other, so naturally he was a bit nippier at first. So it seemed that the older brother (step brothers) was more docile.

Suddenly, puberty? Everything changed and the eldest of the two became hyper aggressive. To me and the other ferrets at first, now only to me. He attacks unprovoked at random, bites to the bone and really locks in and shreds - he tries to do as much damage as he possibly can. I tried all forms of training, no dice.

Ferretone? he would try to bite and drag away whatever limb I put it on. Time outs? couldn't care less. Bitter apple? its like its not even there. Scruffing? goes totally ballistic and is a risk even trying to get access to his neck for it. Firmly saying "no"? totally ignored.

When he bites, he does not let go, no matter what - so initially when it was really bad and I was at risk of serious permanent damage, I'd pressure his neck (not strangling the guy, just pressuring him down) until he'd loosen his jaw and I could get free. I only did that at most 1-2 times, and since then have just embraced being completely mauled and torn up in agony simply because I felt so guilty even slightly pressuring him in any way and I don't like to "discipline" my animals physically. I was just in a very tough spot where my entire hand was being torn, and he got through to the bone on more than one finger.

The most recent mauling was on my right hand, and in trying to get him away from it and to his neck he instead shredded my left thumb - 4 bites, all bleeding profusely and the thumb swelling and being unusable for a long period.

I spayed all 3 of them, because the breeder suggested it may be hormones - but it didn't deter him in the slightest. I've come to regret getting them, and wishing I had just stayed with the one all because of what this boy is like and how actively he attacks me.

It's been almost 3 years now of having the two of them, and the little one is fine - gets a bit nippy when he's super hyper or if he's by the face but overall totally safe and I'm not in danger being around him during free roam. I toilet trained them as well (granted it took months, whereas with my other boy it was like waving a magic wand and done). During which, I've always been in contact with the breeder, just trying to get some help but she is also at a loss and has recommended that I bring him back to her. At first it was with the idea of training, but quickly turned into a permanent rehoming because he's "not quite right".

The reason it's been so long though is because of my guilt, and determination as an animal lover? I see them sleeping together and it's like none of these problems exist, when he does let me touch him without risking nerve damage I can't help but think about what it would be like if he could just be like the others, if he could let me love him. I don't want him to miss out on that - on love, affection, or even just the freedom the others have because they don't have to go back in the cage after 4 hours or after brutally attacking me, they can just chill with me.

I think about taking him back, and I know that he would be going to a good home, where there are lots of other ferrets and very experienced owners - but then it's like, won't he feel abandoned? That he wasn't good enough? Or where his brother is? Or his friend? Will the others feel the same? Would I be doing more harm than good?

I have a slew of mental illnesses, and I haven't left my house in 10 years for anything other than doctors or hospital appointments. I'm home all the time, and animals were (and are) my coping mechanism for suicidal feelings, and general loneliness/isolation from society... I treat them better than myself, and they are always my priority.

Maybe thats why I'm struggling so much on "giving up" with him, or maybe thats why I'm not good enough for him, to help him. I can't be the alpha he needs me to be because this far in, I'm very much afraid of that damage. I don't know how to not show fear, or pain, to assert dominance when every second he's free roaming I'm hyperaware of where my limbs are at in vicinity to him. (I do play with him, but it's very guarded and cautious, the second I let my guard slip even slightly he takes advantage)

Anyway, I'm sorry for the monologue, if anyone here can give some advice that would be great - or you can just confirm that I'm a monster, either way.

TL;DR My ferrets an alpha biter force of nature and I'm a whiny baby

[unclejoe]

Hi. I would try some leather gloves just to reduce injury. Honestly if you found something that works without hurting, you should be consistent with it until he learns. You also haven't mentioned putting him in time out for 3-5 minutes at a time when he does bite. IK, you have to handle him to get him into the cage (TRY GLOVES), but allowing yourself to be savaged is getting you nowhere.

[bedslug]

Thanks for the response - I have tried time outs, as I used them when training my first ferret out of his food aggression when he was a kit - but to no avail, (I've even gotten three different carriers, not using the cage for it) he doesn't seem to respond to anything. I've tried all the same methods I've used with the others, and more - but while they learn, he doesn't. Any time a period has gone without incidents (mostly due to hyper vigillance) the second I let my guard down to think he's getting better its back to the med-kit and disinfectant for me.

I considered gloves, but the breeder advised against it and I read that gloves make things worse, either because they don't learn to not bite or because they get more aggressive toward a bigger hand?

[lyles]

Jun 15, 2021 17:10:42 GMT -5 bedslug said:

Thanks for the response - I have tried time outs, as I used them when training my first ferret out of his food aggression when he was a kit - but to no avail, (I've even gotten three different carriers, not using the cage for it) he doesn't seem to respond to anything. I've tried all the same methods I've used with the others, and more - but while they learn, he doesn't. Any time a period has gone without incidents (mostly due to hyper vigillance) the second I let my guard down to think he's getting better its back to the med-kit and disinfectant for me.

I considered gloves, but the breeder advised against it and I read that gloves make things worse, either because they don't learn to not bite or because they get more aggressive toward a bigger hand?

Does he bite anywhere or only on the forearms?

I have one exactly like that (see the thread) and nothing else worked until I started rubbing cayenne powder into the areas he would always try to bite at.  it's a pain as you have to make sure to keep applying it or it'll wear off and they'll know, but when he would try to go after it he would shake his head before he was able to bite.

Took a couple of weeks of applying it and now he will rarely try.  Only when he gets hyper excited while wrestling with his buddy will he try if I try playing with him at the same time, but I just pull my arm away when I see the sign of him rapidly licking before he has the chance.  Haven't had any problems since.

[bedslug]

Jun 15, 2021 17:36:01 GMT -5 lyles said:

Does he bite anywhere or only on the forearms?

I have one exactly like that (see the thread) and nothing else worked until I started rubbing cayenne powder into the areas he would always try to bite at.  it's a pain as you have to make sure to keep applying it or it'll wear off and they'll know, but when he would try to go after it he would shake his head before he was able to bite.

Took a couple of weeks of applying it and now he will rarely try.  Only when he gets hyper excited while wrestling with his buddy will he try if I try playing with him at the same time, but I just pull my arm away when I see the sign of him rapidly licking before he has the chance.  Haven't had any problems since.

Anywhere fleshy - hands, arms, feet, legs, anywhere that has flesh he can sink into he'll bite - if I walk past him he goes for feet, if I'm on my bed perfectly still he goes for feet/legs (while the others just mill around). I tried wearing socks instead and he just became more aggressive. I could try pepper, though I'm not sure how effective it'll be on my entire body. (never going outside or having anyone knowing you exist means not having to wear a lot of layers, too)

It's just hands that get the worst of it since of course any time I go near him to shoo him from another body part its chow time.

Something that strikes me as odd is that he shows no sign of aggression before he bites, and after I manage to free myself and get away he'll just eerily stay there, still, blank. If anything, he shows more interest in me than his brother - like he wants attention and rushes for it, but then when I try to treat him the same way as the others something quickly clicks in his brain and its a complete 180 in personality back to being rabid - I thought of taking him to the vet incase of something underlying being the issue (I have adhd, so I see weirdly similar signs in his shifting) but due to covid they aren't seeing just anyone and requested a video of him attacking me to be seen... (like, okay??).

[lyles]

Wear fuzzy slippers when in the home and rub the pepper on your legs and arms (not the hand cause you can get it on them or your eyes, ect).

During this time do not try picking him up, just ignore him. If he comes to you and it looks like he's going to bite, show him your arm where you applied the pepper, he should shake his head and go away. If he persists, just get up and move away for a bit, showing no interest in him. He should learn over time that he will not get his way.

You can also try positive reinforcement with bits of boiled chicken. When they are active and about, carry some pieces with you. If he comes near you and does not immediately go for the bite, give him a piece. If he tries to bite then give it to each of the others but not him. Ferrets tend to respond much better to positive reinforcement than negative.

[bedslug]

Jun 15, 2021 18:15:10 GMT -5 lyles said:

Wear fuzzy slippers when in the home and rub the pepper on your legs and arms (not the hand cause you can get it on them or your eyes, ect).

During this time do not try picking him up, just ignore him. If he comes to you and it looks like he's going to bite, show him your arm where you applied the pepper, he should shake his head and go away. If he persists, just get up and move away for a bit, showing no interest in him. He should learn over time that he will not get his way.

You can also try positive reinforcement with bits of boiled chicken. When they are active and about, carry some pieces with you. If he comes near you and does not immediately go for the bite, give him a piece. If he tries to bite then give it to each of the others but not him. Ferrets tend to respond much better to positive reinforcement than negative.

I'll try to carry around chicken, I'm vegetarian myself (but do feed them raw, though its not the type of stuff you want to be cooking being organs and bone and whatnot). I'll buy some chicken, cayenne powder (maybe some leather gloves).

When I try to move from him it excites him to chase me and be more aggressive though, he's very adamant - moving my feet away and saying no, he'll just stay ontop of them or leap to bite them because I'm taking them away. It seems lose lose whether I move or don't. (Also, I did try fuzzy slippers and he just saw them as something to hunt and sunk into them and wouldn't detach, I even removed the slipper and he remained attached to it and attacked it on the floor, but I guess rather the slipper than my foot)

I used to use different treats with my first boy, but the two siblings had 0 interest in treats for whatever reason so I kind of dropped out of using them for training. I'll try again but with the chicken, thanks!

[silentdook]

Rather than gloves or pepper, (which isn't going to build any trust if you think about it) get a sturdy soft toy, and put that near his mouth when his mouth gets near you. Do not let him get near you without the toy at hand. Praise him for biting the toy, and if he turns to your flesh, firmly state No! and walk away. Get a cat "fishing pole" toy and let him chase it, so you're still interacting with him, but at a safe distance.

Do not feel you have failed him if you can't get this to work out. It takes a lot to gain trust and train a bad biter, and it isn't a matter of being an alpha, it's figuring them out and working with them. The breeder ought to be a source of help, unless they didn't handle him properly to train him. Or, depending on his age, he may have adrenal issues, which can cause aggression.

[bedslug]

Jun 16, 2021 20:14:03 GMT -5 silentdook said:

Rather than gloves or pepper, (which isn't going to build any trust if you think about it) get a sturdy soft toy, and put that near his mouth when his mouth gets near you. Do not let him get near you without the toy at hand. Praise him for biting the toy, and if he turns to your flesh, firmly state No! and walk away. Get a cat "fishing pole" toy and let him chase it, so you're still interacting with him, but at a safe distance.

Do not feel you have failed him if you can't get this to work out. It takes a lot to gain trust and train a bad biter, and it isn't a matter of being an alpha, it's figuring them out and working with them. The breeder ought to be a source of help, unless they didn't handle him properly to train him. Or, depending on his age, he may have adrenal issues, which can cause aggression.

Something I feel I should clarify is that he shows signs of an ordinary affectionate ferret, and licks my hands when I have them near him or hold him most of the time - but then its like I see a switch go in his brain and he goes from 0 to 100 instantly, tame to feral just like that. It's what made me think there is an underlying issue because he isn't aggressive 24/7, he is in the moment. Those moments have no provocation or reason, and after I get him off me he just stands still and spaced out like he's not all there for 20 minutes or so - its eerie.

This is also why I kid myself into thinking he's getting better only to drop my guard and end up badly injured. It's like when someone with bipolar has an episode out of nowhere, or maybe that's just me projecting.

He does go ballistic for cat toys, anything that jingles or crinkles (though its more the noise, when I give him toys he has limited interest if I'm not actively rustling them). Fishing rod toys he goes nuts for, the others ignore them but he's like a cat on crack for them so I guess I'll do as you say and rely on those for interaction. It's a good idea to always have toys at hand to distract him, thankyou.

My only worry is, whenever I try to walk away after stating no, he chases me down to continue to bite and nip - I can't actually get away unless I put him in a time out, because even if I go onto a piece of furniture he'll repeatedly leap up and climb to get to me. (these are playful nips, its just that once he gets his teeth in it immediately switches to brutality, without fail)

I'll use the chicken and toys, and maybe leave the pepper to a last resort. Thank you again for any and all advice so far, because I know what its like to be given up on for having problems and I'm so completely heartbroken at the thought of doing it to him.

[lyles]

Jun 17, 2021 11:20:46 GMT -5 bedslug said:

Jun 16, 2021 20:14:03 GMT -5 silentdook said:

Rather than gloves or pepper, (which isn't going to build any trust if you think about it) get a sturdy soft toy, and put that near his mouth when his mouth gets near you. Do not let him get near you without the toy at hand. Praise him for biting the toy, and if he turns to your flesh, firmly state No! and walk away. Get a cat "fishing pole" toy and let him chase it, so you're still interacting with him, but at a safe distance.

Do not feel you have failed him if you can't get this to work out. It takes a lot to gain trust and train a bad biter, and it isn't a matter of being an alpha, it's figuring them out and working with them. The breeder ought to be a source of help, unless they didn't handle him properly to train him. Or, depending on his age, he may have adrenal issues, which can cause aggression.

Something I feel I should clarify is that he shows signs of an ordinary affectionate ferret, and licks my hands when I have them near him or hold him most of the time - but then its like I see a switch go in his brain and he goes from 0 to 100 instantly, tame to feral just like that. It's what made me think there is an underlying issue because he isn't aggressive 24/7, he is in the moment. Those moments have no provocation or reason, and after I get him off me he just stands still and spaced out like he's not all there for 20 minutes or so - its eerie.

This is also why I kid myself into thinking he's getting better only to drop my guard and end up badly injured. It's like when someone with bipolar has an episode out of nowhere, or maybe that's just me projecting.

He does go ballistic for cat toys, anything that jingles or crinkles (though its more the noise, when I give him toys he has limited interest if I'm not actively rustling them). Fishing rod toys he goes nuts for, the others ignore them but he's like a cat on crack for them so I guess I'll do as you say and rely on those for interaction. It's a good idea to always have toys at hand to distract him, thankyou.

My only worry is, whenever I try to walk away after stating no, he chases me down to continue to bite and nip - I can't actually get away unless I put him in a time out, because even if I go onto a piece of furniture he'll repeatedly leap up and climb to get to me. (these are playful nips, its just that once he gets his teeth in it immediately switches to brutality, without fail)

I'll use the chicken and toys, and maybe leave the pepper to a last resort. Thank you again for any and all advice so far, because I know what its like to be given up on for having problems and I'm so completely heartbroken at the thought of doing it to him.

One theory is that Marshall's might be mixing in polecats in an effort to lessen the inbreeding issue they've been having for a long time now.  Polecat hybrids are a lot more 'rough' to put it lightly.  Sean is about the same age and his behavior is similar, just thinking out loud.

[lumboo]

Is Marshalls where most people in the US get ferrets from? Or do you have lots of private breeders

I have heard so many bad things about Marshalls - mixing polecats and ferrets should be declared if they're doing it, because it would be a completely different temperament of pet wouldn't it?

I hope your boy calms down and keeps to his better nature soon. He currently sounds like my 8 year old daughter pushing boundaries. Its not fun and must be very stressful for you x

[Charlie]

How old is the ferret that causes this damage to you? You said that your first ferret you had for a year before getting these other 2. Your first ferret sounds like such a really sweet boy. How is the biting ferret with the other 2 ferrets? Does he show a lot of aggression towards the other 2 ferrets too like he does with you? I'm guessing your first ferret is your oldest and the biting ferret is the second oldest. It's possible that this ferret may be older then you were told and could be a case of adrenal disease. In some cases, adrenal disease can start very early in some ferrets after a year. Some aren't so lucky with poor genes.

[lyles]

Jun 18, 2021 15:51:26 GMT -5 lumboo said:

Is Marshalls where most people in the US get ferrets from? Or do you have lots of private breeders

I have heard so many bad things about Marshalls - mixing polecats and ferrets should be declared if they're doing it, because it would be a completely different temperament of pet wouldn't it?

I hope your boy calms down and keeps to his better nature soon. He currently sounds like my 8 year old daughter pushing boundaries. Its not fun and must be very stressful for you x

Marshalls is nearly the ONLY ferret farm in the US.  There are some private breeders in every state but they are small and very rare.  Like many large companies in the US, Marshalls pretty much can do whatever they want and have a security tighter than many federal buildings.  Drive too slowly down the highway Marshalls farm is on and you will see 2-3 vehicles start to follow you.  Stop and they will pull over and question you.  Seriously.

Sean is pretty good now, he acts like a sweetheart most of the time, I just have to watch for this one thing.  He will either put his paws up on my arm when I lower it gently, or he will wrap his arms around mine with a strong grip.  The latter means he is preparing to try the lick lick chomp, I always pull away before he has a chance and he'll give up easily.  Now I can relax around him without worrying being bit so he has made quite a bit improvement.

[unclejoe]

look up Path Valley and Triple F farms and see it they are still operating. They were they other 2 larger farms, tho nowhere near marshall. There also used to was Real Canadian. I knew of 1 private store in FL that sold Triple Fs, and one here that had RCs, but otherwise it's been all Marshall, 27 of 30 ferrets. We bought 1 RC at the pet store here (aquarium supply store, only mammal they had) He was 6 Marhsall's of energy in one non-stop fireball. I miss him a ton 3 years later

[bedslug]

Jun 18, 2021 19:46:11 GMT -5 Charlie said:

How old is the ferret that causes this damage to you? You said that your first ferret you had for a year before getting these other 2. Your first ferret sounds like such a really sweet boy. How is the biting ferret with the other 2 ferrets? Does he show a lot of aggression towards the other 2 ferrets too like he does with you? I'm guessing your first ferret is your oldest and the biting ferret is the second oldest. It's possible that this ferret may be older then you were told and could be a case of adrenal disease. In some cases, adrenal disease can start very early in some ferrets after a year. Some aren't so lucky with poor genes.

The two I got more recently were born in 2019, March and April - so they're both about 2 now, and my eldest is 3 since I got him the year prior at the same time. (The breeder always has litters around the same times) I do have their birth certificates somewhere too, but I know its April because my dog was also born in April so it's kind of a note that all my animals have the same birthday give or take a few days.

The biter doesn't bother with his younger brother, and they're usually sleeping together. During play, the biter is mostly milling around on his own or stalking me whilst my eldest and youngest play nicely together - then when they're done, the biter starts to try and bite my eldests back and chases him around trying to dominate him and my eldest is often squealing (but I know ferrets do get rough, and the whole no blood no foul).

This used to be much worse and is why I got them all desexed to begin with, before getting these two my eldest wasn't because he hadn't needed to be due to just being a softie - all I really had to do with him was train out some food aggression and after that he became more like a lapdog than a ferret.