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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2011 5:46:14 GMT -5
For a long time I have wanted a new hob from a breeder, to use DES on once it becomes available early next year. Right now I have committed to adopt from a particular breeder who has 2 litters. For the sake of this discussion, please assume I will be buying from this breeder and not looking for a different breeder. I LOVE the kits from both of the available litters, but they each have certain advantages and disadvantages. Litter 1 is points / siamese ferrets, and they are about 11 weeks old. Video here: Litter 2 is dark sables with 1 or 2 black sables in there, 7 weeks old. Video here: www.youtube.com/watuch?v=ysxvX2V2gQg If I pick from litter 1, I will want one of the largest hobs with the best structure for potential showing, and one that will most likely end up a Fine Point in pattern. If I pick from litter 2, I will want one of the 2 "black" hobs. After talking to the breeder, I have come up with the following pros and cons of choosing Litter 1 vs. Litter 2: Litter 1 (Siamese/Point) Pros: This isn't the first litter for the parents, so we know what the kits will turn out like. They will likely grow to be 4 to 6 pounds. They will be large and long with nice long legs, well-suited for running and jumping etc. The kits also are very coordinated and agile. We also know they will have excellent temperament due to their parents' history of temperament and the breeder's work with them. Structure-wise they should be very strong. Their history of health is also very well-documented with no major causes for concern. They appear to be the best bet health-wise. Since they are fine points / siamese, and this is an uncommon pattern at shows, this might give them a certain advantage in a show due to less competition. Plus the unusual factor is nice. Litter 1 (Siamese/Point) Cons: They are all Point (aka Siamese) pattern, which has fallen out of favor these days in the show circuit. They also appear to have perhaps longer heads than Litter 2, which could hurt them in conformation. Their color and pattern are not in vogue right now, they are kind of a more old-fashioned style of ferret, not up to date with the looks that the East Coast breeders are producing these days. Litter 2 (black sable) Pros: The 2 black boys from this litter may very well keep their color and stay really dark with little or no mask. Their head shape seems good so far, though it's hard to tell this young. They have a very cute looking face and head on them that most people seem to prefer. The dark sables and black ferrets overall are doing well these days in shows and seem to be what is popular right now. The temperament of their mother and father is good, so they should have good temperament, but we are less confident about that, since this is the first breeding between this sire and dam. Litter 2 (black sable) Cons: The little black hobs are both a bit smaller than the rest in their litter. On top of that, the whole litter in general is likely to be smaller than Litter 1. These ferrets might only be 3 to 4 lbs, more in the normal range of a large Marshall ferret. There are some concerns about genetic health issues with black ferrets, not enough research exists to know if they are true but it has been mentioned. The parents have good health histories but they are not as well-documented so it's harder to guarantee how healthy the kits should be. The kits also appear to have a more squat stocky build compared to Litter 1, perhaps more of the bulldog ferret body style. It is also a little early to tell how their temperament will be, it SHOULD be good but we are unsure at this point. This is all I can think of, I hope I'm not forgetting anything! I would appreciate it if you would watch the videos (even just a few seconds of them), tell me what you think, and what you would advise, help me make the best choice. I want this ferret to be an ambassador to my friends and family who only know Marshall ferrets, to show them what a truly outstanding ferret from a reputable breeder is like. For this reason it shouldn't be mediocre. It should be a happy, intelligent, healthy, well-socialized, well-tempered, energetic, playful, athletic, strong capable specimen of what a truly healthy and well-treated ferret can be. A ferret never subjected to cruelty or unnecessary surgery or neglect. A ferret that can really change what people thought about ferrets! I'd really appreciate if you could give me your opinion and advice in this matter to help me make the right choice! PLEASE tell me what you think. I especially would like to hear from people who bought from breeders before, or who are breeders themselves! Help me make the best choice! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2011 7:31:10 GMT -5
OMG - you're getting a nanjferret ---- I'm soooo freaking jealous!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D I fell in love one of her ferrets at Spring Nats - he was the BEST!!! My recommendation is to consider getting one from EACH of the litters if you can handle it financially and if kits are still available (long term cost is always more important than up front cost)  Actually, I'm serious here. Sometimes breeder ferrets do not integrate with early alters as easily as we would like because they can be BIG and ENERGETIC. If your current ferrets are 3 or older and have lost that "adolescent insanity", they may find the youngster to be a real pain-in-the-butt. I will add more later - gotta run. -jennifer |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2011 7:48:07 GMT -5
My current ferrets are about 5 and 6 months old. They still play and wrestle with each other every day. If I got one of each, I would be up to 4 ferrets. I'm already pushing it by getting a 3rd because I sometimes need to go out of town, and the person who would usually ferret-sit for me doesn't want to accommodate more than 2, but I can convince him to sit for a 3rd. I think 4, and he would just say no. OMG - you're getting a nanjferret ---- I'm soooo freaking jealous!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D I fell in love one of her ferrets at Spring Nats - he was the BEST!!! Can you tell me who it was you fell in love with, and why? Details please!!  |
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Post by Sherry on Jun 23, 2011 11:21:18 GMT -5
If you are more interested in showing, then the black sables would likely be your best bet at bringing home a ribbon.
On the other hand, if long term health temperment, and size are the major concerns, then one of the 1st litter, since they are so well documented.
Just going by appearance, I think they are ALL adorable ;D
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Post by crazylady on Jun 23, 2011 13:33:55 GMT -5
Hi as sherry has stated the black sables are the in colour at the moment BUT you also have to take into consideration colour is not everything that makes for a show winner the eyes ( on one of them I saw were close together ) and the heads are not as broad as the first litter so you could loose points on head shape too then you have to take into account these are babies and babies don't always retain there dark colour you only see the true colour once they have gone through there first adult shed in the spring so would they gain top marks for colour ? the choice has to be yours take care bye for now
Bev aka crazy lady
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2011 13:44:53 GMT -5
Gonna vote for litter 1 Siamese/Point.
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Post by katt on Jun 23, 2011 14:11:57 GMT -5
Well you already have my vote, but to be official I will post it here... BLACK FERRETS. I am not a fan of point sables, and I am not a fan of he sire of that litter either. Litter 1 (Siamese/Point) Pros: This isn't the first litter for the parents, so we know what the kits will turn out like. They will likely grow to be 4 to 6 pounds. They will be large and long with nice long legs, well-suited for running and jumping etc. The kits also are very coordinated and agile. These kits are older than the black kits, so that is a bit of an unfair comparison. Also being bigger means more muscle mass and more ease in reaching things. So again, IMO unfair comparison at this point in time. Also, do you think a 6 lb baby versus Tiny Fiona will be fair? ;D I see little issue with keeping breeder kits with farm kits, but with such a dramatic size difference the big ferret might not know it's own strength. Perhaps someone with more experience will chime in there... We also know they will have excellent temperament due to their parents' history of temperament and the breeder's work with them. Obviously there will be occasional exceptions and "bad eggs" so to speak, but really most ferrets in good health, raised properly and bred right should have good temperaments. Assuming the parents of the black babies have even temperaments it is very likely the kits will too. The breeder would not breed the parents if she thought it would produce bad tempered babies. Structure-wise they should be very strong. Their history of health is also very well-documented with no major causes for concern. They appear to be the best bet health-wise.Definite pros. But how do you know they are the "best" health wise? You said the black litter's parents have a good health history too even if it can't be tracked back as far. Also, there has been no sign of bad health for the black litter correct? Then I would say they seem to be evenly matched in regards to health. Maybe not structure, but health. Since they are fine points / siamese, and this is an uncommon pattern at shows, this might give them a certain advantage in a show due to less competition. Plus the unusual factor is nice. I would think they do less well, but then that is because if I was judging I would pick a dark baby over a point assuming good conformation and such. Points are among my least favorite patterns. 
Litter 1 (Siamese/Point) Cons: They are all Point (aka Siamese) pattern, which has fallen out of favor these days in the show circuit. They also appear to have perhaps longer heads than Litter 2, which could hurt them in conformation. Their color and pattern are not in vogue right now, they are kind of a more old-fashioned style of ferret, not up to date with the looks that the East Coast breeders are producing these days. You completely contradict yourself here.   I find the head of the sire to be off-putting and don't like it. It is not really the "standard" from what I have seen, and thus I imagine you would lose points in a show for it. But my knowledge of shows is pretty limited so who knows? Litter 2 (black sable) Pros: The 2 black boys from this litter may very well keep their color and stay really dark with little or no mask. Even if they do lighten up, they will still be quite striking. Their head shape seems good so far, though it's hard to tell this young. The parents have nice heads. They have a very cute looking face and head on them that most people seem to prefer. The dark sables and black ferrets overall are doing well these days in shows and seem to be what is popular right now.Yup. Also, how can you say no to a little black nose?  The temperament of their mother and father is good, so they should have good temperament, but we are less confident about that, since this is the first breeding between this sire and dam. Like I said above, I think you will find their temperaments are fine. Yes this is the pair's first litter and there is always a chance for some odd genetic combo, but the breeder would not breed a pair she though would not have nice babies, and they are being raised in a healthy environment. They are WAY less prone to having mental issues like many farm ferrets have., and they will be properly handled and fed etc. This will make a big difference in the positive for whichever kit you pick.
Litter 2 (black sable) Cons:
The little black hobs are both a bit smaller than the rest in their litter. So? They will still more likely than not be bigger than the farm kits. And while I LOVE big ferrets and really want one..this should not be the key picking factor. On top of that, the whole litter in general is likely to be smaller than Litter 1. These ferrets might only be 3 to 4 lbs, more in the normal range of a large Marshall ferret. There are some concerns about genetic health issues with black ferrets, not enough research exists to know if they are true but it has been mentioned.I have never heard this. Everything I have been told says that typically darker ferrets (sables and blacks) and albinos, are LESS prone to genetic issues. ...However, the mother is a BRM and they are closer to the "silver" spectrum (technically BRMs are silvers) which is riskier for genetic issues I believe. The parents have good health histories but they are not as well-documented so it's harder to guarantee how healthy the kits should be. How far back can they track? A few generations? They might not be as well documented, but this does not mean they will be less healthy. As long as they are good a few generations back then your chances are pretty doggone good for healthy babies baring some weird recessive mutation that has never shown up until now. Though you would probably be seeing that in the kits by now...
The kits also appear to have a more squat stocky build compared to Litter 1, perhaps more of the bulldog ferret body style. A good bulky ferret with muscles and a solid frame.
It is also a little early to tell how their temperament will be, it SHOULD be good but we are unsure at this point. see above again
I want this ferret to be an ambassador to my friends and family who only know Marshall ferrets, to show them what a truly outstanding ferret from a reputable breeder is like. For this reason it shouldn't be mediocre. It should be a happy, intelligent, healthy, well-socialized, well-tempered, energetic, playful, athletic, strong capable specimen of what a truly healthy and well-treated ferret can be. A ferret never subjected to cruelty or unnecessary surgery or neglect. A ferret that can really change what people thought about ferrets! A valiant quest! 
I'd really appreciate if you could give me your opinion and advice in this matter to help me make the right choice! PLEASE tell me what you think. I especially would like to hear from people who bought from breeders before, or who are breeders themselves! Help me make the best choice!Well that is my highly opinionated opinion! ;D ;D Obviously I am no breeder, so my ferret-genetics knowledge is lacking, but I am sure you will be happy with either choice. Pick a black one!  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2011 14:46:36 GMT -5
Tough choice. Litter 1 seems more solid, healthy and will be bigger/stronger- even if they may lack the 'vouge' look for shows, they have great facial structure and are all around winners IMO (i've never been to a show so I dont know exactally what the judges go for). As far as litter 2, we all know vouge looks are just that- vouge/hot/it-- they are fad/momentary. I think points are classically beautiful, they may not be the biggest thing atm but they are timeless. Also, it seems the breeder knows more about the parents and the out come of their coupling. For me, the only reason to buy any animal from a breeder (which ive only ever gotten dogs from breeders, ive never gotten a ferret from a breeder) rather than going to a shelter is because you have the advantage of the families medical history and an idea what (if any) issues to expect. It doesnt seem like there is much info on the second litter's family history, its the first litter between those two ferrets so you're really walking into a dark hall, blind folded much like if you adopted or bought from the pet store- what is the advantage in that?
If it was me, I would go with the points
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Post by Heather on Jun 23, 2011 14:49:52 GMT -5
What cute little fuzzes. Absolutely adorable. I think one of the things you should be taking into consideration is, what do you want out of this ferret? Do you want just a show fuzz? There are certain attributes that "you" feel you need in a ferret, what are they? Showing to me is a secondary consideration. The first consideration is having a wonderful, healthy, happy companion. Not all show animals are great companion animals, even if they're the best in the country. Not all show animals are the healthiest. Sometimes, a good show candidate requires a certain personality type. I don't know if that is the way with ferrets, it certainly is the way with dogs and even cats. The other thing to consider is what is "in" in the show ring now, is out a few years down the road. I've seen this gamble done many, many times....Breeders do it all the time, they will "with-hold" a kit. It simply means that they're keeping that kit with the plans to show and breed it. How many times do you see that "show" kit come into the market at 6 months to a year. Many times. What you see now isn't necessarily what you will get later, especially in the colour dept. Breeding and showing is a gamble. What looks the best and shows great promise at 6 weeks, is not worth keeping at 6 months. So, what you need to do is a best bet. What does your breeder say to do? Is there a little hob that would work with you and your present little ones? If she will give her opinion as to what hob would make a good show candidate and a good companion, then take her opinion. If you want a show ferret and a best friend, then she might not choose the best "show" ferret. There are personality meshes too. Those little ones are not going to be happy to sit behind a baby gate....they're going concerns. They're going to be a handful. An intact fuzz has a much more "forceful" personality. She knows her lines best and is probably the best to determine what the probable outcome will be. Ask her. Your success is her success, and she doesn't want a ferret return so she will probably be honest with you. Sit down and play with the little ones...which one do you like...which one talks to you. Good luck with your choices ciao |
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Post by katt on Jun 23, 2011 15:08:18 GMT -5
What cute little fuzzes. Absolutely adorable. I think one of the things you should be taking into consideration is, what do you want out of this ferret? Do you want just a show fuzz? There are certain attributes that "you" feel you need in a ferret, what are they? Showing to me is a secondary consideration. The first consideration is having a wonderful, healthy, happy companion. Not all show animals are great companion animals, even if they're the best in the country. Not all show animals are the healthiest. Sometimes, a good show candidate requires a certain personality type. I don't know if that is the way with ferrets, it certainly is the way with dogs and even cats. The other thing to consider is what is "in" in the show ring now, is out a few years down the road. I've seen this gamble done many, many times....Breeders do it all the time, they will "with-hold" a kit. It simply means that they're keeping that kit with the plans to show and breed it. How many times do you see that "show" kit come into the market at 6 months to a year. Many times. What you see now isn't necessarily what you will get later, especially in the colour dept. Breeding and showing is a gamble. What looks the best and shows great promise at 6 weeks, is not worth keeping at 6 months. So, what you need to do is a best bet. What does your breeder say to do? Is there a little hob that would work with you and your present little ones? If she will give her opinion as to what hob would make a good show candidate and a good companion, then take her opinion. If you want a show ferret and a best friend, then she might not choose the best "show" ferret. There are personality meshes too. Those little ones are not going to be happy to sit behind a baby gate....they're going concerns. They're going to be a handful. An intact fuzz has a much more "forceful" personality. She knows her lines best and is probably the best to determine what the probable outcome will be. Ask her. Your success is her success, and she doesn't want a ferret return so she will probably be honest with you. Sit down and play with the little ones...which one do you like...which one talks to you. Good luck with your choices ciao Very well put! I could not agree more. (I'd still pick a black one though.. hehehe) |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2011 15:10:26 GMT -5
You completely contradict yourself here. ... It's not a contradiction, being points is both an advantage and a disadvantage, depending on which ribbon you're competing for. When it comes to winning a ribbon in your specialty class, you would only be competing against other points. Since points are rare, you'll have less competition and be more likely to take home a ribbon. However, if you're trying to win a championship, you'll be competing against other colors and patterns. There are certain factors the ferrets are judged on, and one of them is "Judge's Impression". This more subjective factor is one place where there is room for preference of one pattern or color vs. another. The fact is that judges will tend to favor the color and/or pattern that is popular at the time. This is where being a point can be a disadvantage in the arena. This is what I've been told by people who actually participated in shows, and you can also read the exhibitor guidebook for more information: www.ferret.org/pdfs/ExhibitorGuidebook.pdf |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2011 15:56:35 GMT -5
Heather, I would sit down and play with them but I can't, they are about 1100 miles away  I wasn't able to find available kits within driving distance so I'm planning to have one shipped to me by airplane. But Nancy (the breeder) is going to set up a webcam so she can interactively show me the individuals. That's the best I can do I guess. |
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Post by crazylady on Jun 23, 2011 16:00:09 GMT -5
Hi I would say forget putting the show part of it first ( yes I am a international judge lol ) shows are few and far between what is more important is how your baby reacts at home and how he is physically yes I breed all colours I breed for longevity and bone structure lots of the blacks have black self in there make up ( an unknown quantity ) yes there coat looks stunning but there skulls are small as are the eyes I have judged the blacks in over a doz countries since they came onto the scene and they are easily recognisable ( even if odd owners try to place them in the ordinary sable class !) at one time silver was the in colour for now it is black at the end of the day your baby may not turn out to be a winner of many ribbons or he may does it matter ? go with your heart if you adore the blacks go for a black if you adore the points go for a point this is a for life decision shows only last so long ( a couple of broken teeth see to that ) a ferret is for life good luck on your decision only my two penny's worth take care bye for now
Bev aka crazy lady
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Post by joclyn on Jun 23, 2011 16:05:44 GMT -5
color and pattern don't matter as much as health and personality.
even with good personality traits, the particular personality of the newbie may or may not mesh with the personalities of the existing business. there's always the possibility that there will be an issue and you'll have 2 groups - either for a short time of transition or on a permanant basis.
color & pattern are only important if you really, really, really have a preference for something in particular.
when it comes to showing the speciality classes cover the colorations as well as patterns (either from within the color class and there are also a couple that are specific for pattern regardless of base color), so, ANY color and/or pattern has the potential to do well at a show IF it fits the standard set by the afa. fitting the standard will change at different times of the year as where they are with a shed will have a direct affect on how they fit the standard. age, i think affects things, too, since changes to color can come later in life.
title classes are very specific with how things are ranked and color/pattern isn't an issue there at all - it's body structure, muscle tone and over-all health and wellness that are the important things for title class judging.
you can easily have a ferret with fabulous genes and fantastic bone structure that isn't cared for as best as is possible and will lose points to due that improper care (no muscle tone, under or overweight, bad teeth).
i look at the history of the breeder - the genetics for health & longevity and personality - and not just the current litters & their parents, either. i go back a few generations and even back 5 or 6 if it's possible...
color comes second for me. yes, i do have my preferences! health & well-being and how long they are going to be in my life are more important than looks...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2011 16:32:14 GMT -5
Thanks for all the great advice. So, the breeder I'm working with knows about standards and how ferrets are judged, and signs of health, etc. I can only do so well myself, as I am not experienced in this field. Let's assume that since the ferrets are far away, I'm willing to rely somewhat on the breeder's judgement to help me make the decision, given my criteria. Let's say that I place my priorities like this: Disposition, health, structure and conformance. Does that sound OK? I personally do not have a strong preference for color. I do prefer the dark or black sables to a certain degree, but not enough to pick them for that reason alone. If I did, I wouldn't have this dilemma, I would have already picked one  As for disposition, the breeder thinks they should all have a good disposition, but the dark ones are too young right now to tell for sure. The points, I think she said she feels confident already that their dispositions are good (at least, the hobs are - she has a jill in the point litter that is a spitfire!) She has offered to let me wait a couple weeks longer to get a better idea of the disposition of the younger litter, so I think we're good there for now. As for health, the dark litter is likely to be health too, but I guess we just have more documentation for points. I'm willing to assume they are equal in the health arena. That leaves structure, I THINK that's where I need the most help. Should I just tell the breeder, hey, pick me whoever has the best shaped head, best bone structure, and best overall conformance? Should that be good? Or would you suggest any specific things to ask her for? I really appreciate all the helpful ideas. I think the webcam session will be very helpful too. Maybe I can get a tiny peek into their personalities and dispositions? |
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