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Post by timberdarkhorse on Mar 27, 2020 4:28:27 GMT -5
Hello! I've been seeing a lot of people concerned with raw meat affecting human health but don't really see that brought up as an issue here? Cleanliness when preparing the meat seems pretty self explanatory to me, but what about when feeding? Like, how long do you usually have to leave food out for the ferrets to eat as much as they need? Will the meat being stashed cause bacteria issues for you? And if so, how do you prevent it? Because if raw meat can potentially contaminate their environment (based off what others seem concerned of), and it also has to be left out a certain amount of time, how can you ensure everything will remain safe? If it has to be left out for a long period of time, I wouldn't want to place them in a specific feeding area, locked away, you know?
I'm a bit overwhelmed with all this information so I'm gonna add some other raw diet questions here so I don't annoy people with multiple threads ;o; They don't have to be answered, I'm mainly concerned with the main question right now.
I've heard outsiders talking about issues with bones causing choking or causing blockages. I'm a bit confused as to what counts as bone-in meat as well... What's the safest and best bones you can give and which are no-gos? How small should you chop them?
Is pork safe?
Are any of the supplements (raw egg and salmon oil, mainly) needed for a balanced diet?
Should you adjust your meal planning around your ferrets poop ever and if so, is there a good guide for that?
Is red meat required or is it bad for them?
How much, roughly, does frakenprey raw feeding cost? Answers varied but when I did a rough estimate it was quite expensive...
Thank you for reading!
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Post by caitmonster on Mar 27, 2020 10:25:38 GMT -5
Here's a reply from katt that I found which explains it nicely: "Meat is good for them a LOT longer than you think. Typically food is good for: Soup: 8-10hrs Grinds: 10-12hrs Chunks and bone-in meats: 12-24hrs Whole prey: 24-48hrs Keep in mind that in the wild they catch their prey OR stumble across some carrion (which has been out who knows how long), drag their prize through the wilds (dirt, moldy leaves, other animal feces/urine, etc) and into their burrows where they urinate/defecate on it to discourage other animals from stealing it, then leave it stashed for a varied amount of time. Ferrets are VERY well equipped to handle the bacteria content of raw meats. They have extremely acidic stomach acid that kills most things, and then they have an extremely short digestive tract which allows food to pass through quickly, preventing any remaining bacteria from having enough time to latch on and reproduce to cause infection. Raw meat is what they are biologically built to thrive off of."
I feed chunks and bone-in, so I leave stuff out during the day and in his cage at night at standard room temperature. You get really good at telling by smell what's still good and what isn't. If you're immunocompromised I'm sure you have to be extra careful with handling it, but with standard hygiene I haven't had any issues.
Stashing can be an issue with raw, though, but honestly most of the time the pieces will just dry up. The solution is to provide feeding dens/caching boxes, either plastic or cardboard--depending on whether you want to clean it or just toss it--where they can eat and stash to their heart's content.
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Pork is safe, especially when feeding human-grade meat. The only concern re:feeding raw is with wild game; in those cases you have to freeze for a couple weeks.
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Whole raw egg is beneficial due to the nutrients and fat it contains. They also help prevent hairballs since the egg proteins bind with hair and help it to pass through the digestive system. Salmon and other fish oil also have good fats, particularly Omega 3s. You can feed 1/2 to 1 teaspoon over the course of week (too much at one time leads to smelly/loose poo.)
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See the basic frankenprey menu for planning around poop consistency. Generally bone-in meals follow organ meals so there aren't too many loose bowel movements in a row.
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It's good to have one source of red meat (beef or lamb) in the meal plan each week for the B vitamins.
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It's tricky to give an estimate of feeding frankenprey because it's dependent on the cost of living in each area (since you are buying from whatever groceries are around you). You can order online, of course, but that will increase the price exponentially due to shipping. I would say I spend about $40 a month, buying for one 3-4lb male ferret who eats about 3 pounds a week. I hope that's helpful!
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Post by timberdarkhorse on Mar 27, 2020 13:29:26 GMT -5
caitmonster Thank you for your replies :0 So usually meat being in your ferret's cage won't affect you, correct? Not sure how much you need to be conscious of with raw meat for humans. I imagine the chances being low to get anything serious from it just being in their cage but I wanted to make sure. The feeding den sounds like a good idea though, I looked it up and saw an option I liked too, I'll probably try that! Oh, and that does help! Meats such as legs, thighs, and wings work, right? Would breasts work too? I forget if they have good bones... I think I'm just confused with the concept because I don't make myself much meat with bones or anything of the sort. How do you ensure a good balance between meat and bone though? Like necks don't seem meaty enough to fit the criteria but it is listed... Do you have to add other meat with it at times? How much is usually the average amount ferrets eat in a week, in your experience? Since 3 pounds a week is more than I expected, ahh. All the rest of the answers are helpful too, thank you!
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Post by caitmonster on Mar 27, 2020 14:41:00 GMT -5
You're very welcome! No, raw meat in the cage, or anywhere else, won't affect you, as long as you're not licking your fingers after serving up a nice dish of raw chicken. Just wash your hands after serving--I like to have a dedicated pair of salad tongs for grabbing wayward bits of meat and putting them back where they belong, lol. You can get bone-in breasts, yes. And there actually is a decent bit of meat on necks. I used to feed turkey necks myself but found them to be too much of a pain to chop up and hammer. The only bone-in portions you really need to add extra muscle meat to are feet (duck or chicken, you can often find them at Asian markets). As for amount per week, copying from the HFF website: "On AVERAGE adult females will eat 1-3oz per day, and adult males will eat 2-4oz per day." Going from an average of 2.5 oz a day, that's slightly over a pound per week. Those averages are going to vary seasonally as well as by age, though: young ferrets are bottomless pits, and all ferrets eat more as winter approaches and less in summer. Rocky is less than 2 years old and super active, so he's eating around 6 oz a day at the moment (which translates to 2.5 lb a week, my bad). My tiny little 1 lb female maybe ate 2 oz a day at the most, just to give perspective.
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Post by timberdarkhorse on Mar 27, 2020 16:29:00 GMT -5
caitmonster Ohh, that's great. I was actually planning on getting tongs for it too! Is there a good way to find the best markets and such? I'm remote rural so finding good businesses is a bit harder than usual and I'm not sure if there's a trick for it? And ahh, sorry for reasking but, how much should you chop bone pieces? I imagine not too small so they don't swallow a whole piece... But I'm not sure what counts as too small, oops. And ah, big variation, I see. They should like cuties though, aww! How do you ensure they're each getting the proper needed amounts of everything when it varies so much? Sorry for asking so many questions! I'm an endless stream of them apparently lol.
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Post by caitmonster on Mar 27, 2020 17:15:17 GMT -5
Oh sorry, I missed your question about chopping. And no worries about needing to ask questions, that's what we're here for. In general, you don't need to chop bones into smaller pieces; they're perfectly capable of breaking bones themselves. (In fact I came across a neat little study that measured ferrets' jaw strength; supposedly they can generate up to 10 pounds force! I converted from N which is Newtons. The article is here: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1518073)However, ferrets that have been on kibble need to build up jaw strength, so you may have to pound larger, denser bones like legs and necks with a hammer. I have a metal mallet that I use on a cement block, outside--can't pound hard enough on the kitchen counters. Gizzards are good for building up jaw muscle, plus they're the rubbery texture ferrets just love. I'm assuming you are or will be transitioning from kibble? That's something I haven't done myself since Rocky had been given raw by his breeder before I got him. Honestly, you can try just giving them a chicken wing to start, and see if they like it. If they turn up their nose repeatedly, you may have to go with the recommended route of soup > slivers and chunks > full-sized bone in portions.
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I would say either check a phone book or do a Google search to find groceries, ethnic markets, and butchers around you. Call them and see what they keep in stock. They may even be able to order things for you, it's always worth asking.
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As for the amount to feed, ferrets are basically self-regulating on frankenprey, since they have to chew and so that slows them down. You can give them as much as they'll eat. Start with the averages per day for your ferret's sex and weight and adjust from there, based on whether they eat everything in one go, or leave a substantial amount behind every time. Sometimes they will nibble at first and stash the rest, or prefer to eat overnight, so just keep an eye on what goes away in a 24 hour period.
If you don't have a scale, or have trouble imaging how much a certain amount of ounces actually is--I know I do--you can find 4 ounce Tupperware containers at stores or online; they're often labeled "snack size." I use one for each meal, myself.
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Post by timberdarkhorse on Mar 27, 2020 18:01:00 GMT -5
caitmonsterI’m glad you’re not bothered by my questions because whoopsie daisies I ask a lot— Wow, such little noodles can pack a big munch... but that’s super helpful! I actually have multiple spare cinder blocks so I imagine I could use those to make a mallet surface? I actually don’t own ferrets, but if all goes right money and health wise, I’m hoping I can get some sooner rather than later. I’m currently fixing up a spare room that would be able to host them, but also would work as a regular guest and display room incase I don’t get any for quite awhile longer. And I know this is for raw diet questions, but while you’re here, two quick questions: I have a critter nation I plan on using but I’ve heard some ferrets will climb them? How big of an issue is this usually? And would wood stove pellets work for litter? Since it seems cheap and fitting but I don’t fully trust it... I would assume any ferrets I’d get would likely be on kibble though, so thanks for the tip! Oh, man, I feel so stupid for never having thought of calling as an option. I’m a bit of a disaster over phone calls, if that’s any compensation. But I’m thinking of going to the “city” one of these days after quarantine’s over and checking out all the stores I can find to check prices and stock. But now with that suggestion in mind, once I have ferrets lined up I’ll definitely try that. I’ve heard some people have made good relationships with their butchers so maybe I’ll get lucky lol. Ah, yes, I’d heard that’s the best method. It seems like one of the easiest parts now that you phrase it like that.. I luckily do have a scale but the Tupperware idea for storage is nice! Do you use Tupperwares for all your meat or do you use bags and other methods too?
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Post by caitmonster on Mar 27, 2020 20:07:25 GMT -5
Yes to the cinder blocks, and you really only need one (I only do one piece at a time), unless you want to lay everything out at once and go to town on it all. I have the Ferret Nation not the Critter, but I will tell you this: Rocky can stand on the second level shelf, grab onto the inside of the door if it's half open, and haul himself up and on top of the cage. So I'd imagine ferrets can scale Critter Nations like it's nothing. Hopefully someone who's had one will chime in. I think the solution is to zip-tie plexiglass or some other board around the bottom couple inches of the outside. FWIW, I've worked as a librarian for 5 years and I still have anxiety about calling people, so a lot of times I write out notes ahead of time. I use the tiny Tupperwares for meal portions. Some people do use baggies; it's up to you. Packages of meat and organs as I buy them from the store are kept in plastic ziplock bags in the freezer, then defrosted whenever I do meal prep, once a week.
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Post by timberdarkhorse on Mar 28, 2020 8:36:13 GMT -5
caitmonster Ah, man, I'm hoping any I get won't be into climbing but I'll have to look into the plexiglass solution just in case. I have the critter nation leftover from my rats and I don't want to have to rebuy a whole new one or anything yet. I'm so bad with filling silence and phrasing stuff properly when calling, but the calling thing is definitely a good idea so I'll have to hope for the besttt. I was worried with Tupperware taking up too much space but I didn't really want to do bags for all of it either, so your method sounds the best. I'm going to need a whole new freezer for this for sure, lol. You can only refreeze meat once, right? I think any meat I'd get would dethaw on the way home if I bought frozen but I guess I could use a cooler as to not ruin the meat?
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Post by caitmonster on Mar 28, 2020 9:46:26 GMT -5
I only have the kind of fridge that has the freezer section on top, and Rocky's food only takes up half of it. I'm fairly close to the stores, though, so I make trips to buy his food once or twice a month (or else roll it into my own grocery shopping). A cooler is handy, but unless it's 70-80+ degrees F outside and the food is going to be sitting in a hot car for an extended period of time, I actually don't bother with it. Especially if you have all the frozen stuff bagged together pretty tightly, it might only warm up a little bit on the way home. Again, though, I'm not far from the grocery, so YMMV. And it's safe to refreeze defrosted meat. I defrost a package, get out the amount I need for the week, and refreeze. Sometimes I do split up larger portions/packages, like whole rabbits and larger organs, since it does take a while to get through those and I want to keep them as fresh as possible. You might find some posts about taurine, which is a very very important nutrient found primarily in heart meat and also tongue, supposedly being degraded by defrosting/refreezing. This was found not to be the case, BUT since it is water-soluble, it can run off into any liquid that melts out from a piece of meat. So if you have a big red puddle of thaw-off leaking out, pour that into the container as well, it's got all good stuff in it.
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Post by timberdarkhorse on Mar 28, 2020 12:50:04 GMT -5
caitmonster I have the freezer on the bottom and it's quite big but my freezer is already pretty full most of the time, so I def think another freezer would do good. And ahh, they'd likely have to stay out for up to three hours (if my local grocery store doesn't end up having what I need, which I doubt it will every time) and I wouldn't want it to dethaw in the car or anything. But I'll have to test it to see how the meat would do. Oh! I knew about taurine but not about the liquid thing with it, I likely would have ended up making the mistake of pouring any liquids away, so thank you very much for telling me! I have another question I just thought of when it comes to using salmon oil; would feeding both fish and salmon oil in a week cause issue with them having too much omega 3s or anything else? Actually, I don't hear much about details on feeding fish in general... Are there any limits and which fish are the best for them? Can you give fish bones ever? And I've heard some stuff about feeding certain meats that are high in specific nutrients can cause an issue if fed too much of? I don't remember the exact details but I think I heard something about Vitamin A? Is there anything that clarifies what those would be?
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Post by caitmonster on Mar 28, 2020 14:15:14 GMT -5
If you're following the recommended maximum dosage of 1 teaspoon of fish oil per week, then overdose of Omega 3s isn't an issue, no. You can give a mix if you want; most people like the Grizzly brand that can be found in some pet stores and online. You can also use fish oil capsules, just prick a hole in one and squeeze it out.
Fish itself is fine to feed; I haven't ever fed whole fish but I'd imagine raw fish bones are safe just as animal ones. Due to concerns about mercury, and the fact that it can make them smell "fishy" if they have a lot, from what I've seen it's recommended to limit it to a meal per week or so. Some ferrets like it, some don't.
Vitamin A toxicity can happen with too much liver. That's why you might see warnings against feeding treats that have liver, because it will throw off the nutritional balance of the diet. I'm drawing a blank in regards to other organs, but again, if you're following the required percentages per week, it's not a problem anyway.
Another nutritional boundary to be aware of is to limit immature animal proteins (like chicks & pinky mice) to snacks; since these animals aren't fully developed, they lack important nutrients. Cornish hens are technically immature as well, since they are slaughtered young, and so should be fed no more than 3 times a week.
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Post by timberdarkhorse on Mar 28, 2020 15:25:15 GMT -5
caitmonster All of that is super helpful, ahh, thank you ! I think I'm pretty much out of questions for right now, though one last one would be if they can have lobster or something of that sort? But fr, you a saint, bro...
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Post by caitmonster on Mar 28, 2020 18:22:41 GMT -5
You're welcome! Don't know that anyone's ever asked about lobster. Guess you could try it and see!
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Post by timberdarkhorse on Mar 28, 2020 18:27:00 GMT -5
caitmonster Hmm, now that I think about it, it's probably not a good idea since lobsters have a lot of toxins that get worse when they die, I believe. I know that's why people have to cook them alive so I'm not sure if freezing would kill it off either... Yeahhh, I'll just stick to fish for now. But thank you again for your help! Trying to figure out the answers to stuff can be so overwhelming, so I appreciate it!
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