Can raw food be fed to a ferret that has insulinoma?

[dee]

Hi All!

My Sampson was just diagnosed with insulinoma.  Needless to say, I am very upset considering I researched for the best kibble to give him and 2 years ago started him on FDR.  I guess, my efforts weren't good enough in buying the best kibble or he wasn't eating the FDR long enough.  I blame myself for not putting him on raw because of my own hang-up.  So, I want to put him on raw now along with my other little ones because I don't want them to get it.  But I just don't know how to start.  I know there are different options such as Frankenprey & Commercially frozen raw. But that's about it. I'm very confused.  What is the difference between the two? What do I start them off with? and how do I progress?  


Anyway, I am considering surgery for him without a doubt.  With that being said, has anyone had their ferret go through this?  And if so, please comment.  

Thanks!

[raven]

Yes a raw diet is great at any time. Illness is very common in ferrets even when raw feeding it can still happen however feeding raw greatly increases quality of life.

Commercially frozen raw is basically frozen or freeze dried raw meat sold in stores generally by a brand and is pretty much apart of frankenpray. The 2 groups of raw feeding are Frankenprey and Whole Prey. Frankenprey is basically separately buying all the organs, bones, muscles separately from rabbits, pigs, cows, lambs, chickens etc. and then bringing them together to make a balanced meal. And Whole Prey is feeding the whole animal with all organs, bones, muscles etc in the animal such as whole rabbit, quail, rat. I'm a little tender hearted so I have an easier time going with frankenprey.

Starting with soup makes the transition easier. Switching to raw especially with an older ferret might seem like a lot at first but it's not so bad and totally worth it.


Here are some helpful links to get you started.

Intro to Raw:
holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/17480/intro-raw-newbies-read

Sizing Meats:
holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/4341/standardized-sizing-etc-meats

Smashing Bone:
holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/18359/smashing-bone-beginner-ferrets


It's also helpful to read through other peoples threads transitioning their ferrets to raw:
holisticferret60.proboards.com/board/55/archives

This is my thread from when I first switched my ferrets from kibble to raw:
holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/24440/ravens-switching-thread-katt-mermaidsirena

Currently neither of my ferrets have any illnesses so I won't be much help there.

[dee]

Thank you so much Raven! My little guy is having surgery as we speak.

[unclejoe]

Sorry for the dx, but I wouldn't automatically jump into the surgery. It might be a temporary fix. Our Abita has been on prednisolone at a low dose for 2 years, and she will soon be 7. Surgery is very risky for ferrets unless you have a very experienced vet. By its nature, insulinoma like diabetes affects microscopic areas of the pancreas, and it is spread throughout the organ. Removing a portion of the pancreas does not guarantee that the disease is gone.
Feeding raw is one of the best things you could do, but having fed FDR in the past, it won't be a cure either. But with that and pred therapy you can prolong her quality of life longer.
How old is Samson?  I took in a couple ferrets that were exactly 2 years old with vet records.  They were both fed Purina cat chow.  One was dxed with insulinoma a couple weeks after I got him.  The other  8 months later.  Neither made it to 3 yo, but they both transitioned to soupies in a couple days.  I was new then, and did what I knew.  I didn't know there was a difference between prednisone tablets and prenisolone liquid.  Work with what you have, and don't blame yourself.  I have known of private bred raw fed ferrets that got one or more of the Big # or just died unexpectedly at a young age.  In the wild they average 2-3 years.  Enjoy them while you have them.  We're here for you.

[Heather]

Insulinoma is rarely treated by surgery anymore. The vets have all but admitted they can't get all the nodules (tumours) that are causing the problem. The ferret often lives no longer and usually has to be treated anywhere from a few months to a year later...the added risk of surgery makes things even less positive.
Raw feeding isn't a cure, but it does help control as it keeps the BG much more stable. Pred (pediapred)is the common method of treatment. Most live long and happy lives with just this as treatment.
ciao

[Sherry]

I find my raw fed insulinoma ferrets tend to need a lower dose of pred, and stay stable much longer. Average I've found(without surgery) is 2 years on initial dose before having to increase it.

[dee]

Hi All,

Just an update on Sampson.  After surgery, he was put on .3 mL of pred. every morning for a week.  When my vet, Dr. Hoeffer, rechecked him for a fasted BG, he scored a 77 which prompted her to put him on an every other day schedule for 2 weeks.  Today is a week that he's been on that schedule and he's doing fantastic.  He's got another week to go  before she wants to recheck him and if he has another good BG, she's going to stop the pred.  Like I said, he is doing fantastic.  He's got his spunk back. He's playing and jumping around with his pals.  I know this is not going to last forever but at least I prolong it for awhile but we'll see. 

[dee]

Apr 9, 2019 15:19:30 GMT -5 unclejoe said:

Sorry for the dx, but I wouldn't automatically jump into the surgery. It might be a temporary fix. Our Abita has been on prednisolone at a low dose for 2 years, and she will soon be 7. Surgery is very risky for ferrets unless you have a very experienced vet. By its nature, insulinoma like diabetes affects microscopic areas of the pancreas, and it is spread throughout the organ. Removing a portion of the pancreas does not guarantee that the disease is gone.
Feeding raw is one of the best things you could do, but having fed FDR in the past, it won't be a cure either. But with that and pred therapy you can prolong her quality of life longer.
How old is Samson?  I took in a couple ferrets that were exactly 2 years old with vet records.  They were both fed Purina cat chow.  One was dxed with insulinoma a couple weeks after I got him.  The other  8 months later.  Neither made it to 3 yo, but they both transitioned to soupies in a couple days.  I was new then, and did what I knew.  I didn't know there was a difference between prednisone tablets and prenisolone liquid.  Work with what you have, and don't blame yourself.  I have known of private bred raw fed ferrets that got one or more of the Big # or just died unexpectedly at a young age.  In the wild they average 2-3 years.  Enjoy them while you have them.  We're here for you.

Thanks.  To answer you question, Sampson is turning 5 y/o in June. I jumped at surgery because the dx hit me hard and, I felt angry at myself that I hesitated to put him on raw. Also, I really didn't want him taking pred. 2x/day.  Even through he enjoys it, I know what its doing to his body. If he stays on pred. every other day, I'm good with that.  The Dr. removed 1.5 cm of his pancreas, which I figure the less surface area for the insolinoma to attack.  All and all I want to feed all my little ones raw but I don't want to feed them an unbalanced raw diet being that I'm new to this.  

[dee]

Apr 11, 2019 6:06:41 GMT -5 Sherry said:

I find my raw fed insulinoma ferrets tend to need a lower dose of pred, and stay stable much longer. Average I've found(without surgery) is 2 years on initial dose before having to increase it.

That's terrific Sherry! That actually is my goal, too. To switch over to predominately raw.  I always questioned if it would have an effect on the dosage of pred. Now I have my answer.  But, I still have to feed them kibble when I'm away.  Is that going to be a problem?  I'm apprehensive about feeding raw because I do not want their diet to be unbalanced. How do I fix that?   The mentoring program is debunked and I need someone to help me though the transition.  I have so many questions for instance, Can I put a scrambled raw egg in there kibble/FDR mush?  I read that its  one per ferret.  Well, I have 5.  I guess, I would have to feed them separately, which is nearly impossible. Also, I've heard when buying meat from a grocery store, it has to be put in the freezer for 2 weeks to kill any bacteria.  Is that true? 

If anyone else has suggestions, please chime in.

Thanks!

[abbeytheferret6]

Also, I've heard when buying meat from a grocery store, it has to be put in the freezer for 2 weeks to kill any bacteria. Is that true?

That is for wild game (I have a neighbor who gives me a squirrel every now and then).


When serving pork do watch out for added solutions or really any meat. I was going to get some pork chops for mine but it said something like 14 percent solution---I instead got something that was completely natural (hopefully). 




Naturally Occurring Moisture Content of Meat and Poultry

Meat and poultry are composed of naturally occurring water, muscle, connective tissue, fat, and bone. People eat meat for the muscle. The muscle is approximately 75% water (although different cuts may have more or less water) and 20% protein, with the remaining 5% representing a combination of fat, carbohydrate, and minerals. The percentage of naturally occurring water in meat varies with the type of muscle, the kind of meat, the season of the year, and the pH of the meat. Fat in meat is found both between muscles and within muscles. In both locations, fat contributes to overall flavor and juiciness in meats.



Water Content of Meat and Poultry

The amount of naturally occurring water, or moisture, present in meat and poultry may surprise consumers (see chart). An eye of round roast is 73% water before cooking. The same roast after roasting contains 65% water. A whole broiler-fryer contains 66% water before cooking and 60% afterwards. Leaner meat and poultry contain more protein and less fat. Since water is a component of protein (but not fat), a leaner cut will contain slightly more water on a per weight basis.



Leaner Beef Contains More Water

Hotline callers sometimes comment that today's beef contains more water and also doesn't taste the same as in the past. One reason for this is that today's animals are bred to be leaner. Meat from these animals is naturally leaner and contains more water. The fat in meat contributes to flavor, so a leaner cut will taste different than a fattier cut. Some of these leaner cuts are enhanced with a flavor solution.


Enhanced Meat and Poultry Products

Many grocery stores are now offering meat and poultry products that have flavoring solutions added to them. For example, pork chops may be packaged with a solution of water, salt, and sodium phosphate (a solution that can add flavor and moisture to leaner meats). These new products also provide convenience by saving steps in preparation, such as "Teriyaki Beef in Teriyaki Sauce." To prevent confusion, the presence of flavor solutions must be stated on the front of the package.



Enhanced or value-added meat and poultry products are raw products that contain flavor solutions added through marinating, needle injecting, soaking, etc. The presence and amount of the solution will be featured as part of the product name, for example, "Chicken Thighs Flavored with up to 10% of a Solution" or "Beef Steak Marinated with 6% of a Flavor Solution." The ingredients of the flavor solution must be prominently identified on the label. Typically, this information will be on the principal display panel or the information panel.



The labeling term "marinated" can only be used with specific amounts of solution. "Marinated" meats can contain no more than 10% solution; boneless poultry, no more than 8% solution; and bone-in poultry, no more than 3% solution.

In the case of enhanced products, the solutions that are added to the meat or poultry, or into which the meat or poultry are placed for flavoring, seasoning, and tenderizing, are intended to be part of the product. The solutions are required by regulations and policies to be identified as part of the product names of the enhanced products, and whether the solution is incorporated into the product or is free-flowing, it is considered part of the product.



Natural Products

All raw single ingredient meat and poultry qualify as "natural." However, certain products labeled as natural may also contain a flavoring solution provided the solution contains ingredients that are minimally processed and not artificial; e.g., natural flavoring. The amount of solution added to products bearing natural claims is not limited. All products claiming to be natural should be accompanied by a brief statement which explains what is meant by the term "natural."
www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsis/topics/food-safety-education/get-answers/food-safety-fact-sheets/meat-preparation/water-in-meat-and-poultry/CT_Index

[Sherry]

May 1, 2019 7:22:57 GMT -5 dee said:

Apr 11, 2019 6:06:41 GMT -5 Sherry said:

I find my raw fed insulinoma ferrets tend to need a lower dose of pred, and stay stable much longer. Average I've found(without surgery) is 2 years on initial dose before having to increase it.

That's terrific Sherry! That actually is my goal, too. To switch over to predominately raw.  I always questioned if it would have an effect on the dosage of pred. Now I have my answer.  But, I still have to feed them kibble when I'm away.  Is that going to be a problem?  I'm apprehensive about feeding raw because I do not want their diet to be unbalanced. How do I fix that?   The mentoring program is debunked and I need someone to help me though the transition.  I have so many questions for instance, Can I put a scrambled raw egg in there kibble/FDR mush?  I read that its  one per ferret.  Well, I have 5.  I guess, I would have to feed them separately, which is nearly impossible. Also, I've heard when buying meat from a grocery store, it has to be put in the freezer for 2 weeks to kill any bacteria.  Is that true? 
If anyone else has suggestions, please chime in.

Thanks!

Why would you need to kibble feed when you aren't home? I haven't had kibble in the house in years. 
From what I'm reading, you also feed FDR? Is there a reason you don't give two rehydrated meals a day, and just leave the FDR dry in the cage for in between snacking?
It is one egg per ferret per week.
And no, grocery store meat does NOT have to be frozen first. You are thinking of wild game/fish. That is for 3 weeks in a deep freeze to kill off any potential parasites/parasite eggs.

[dee]

May 3, 2019 5:53:07 GMT -5 Sherry said:

May 1, 2019 7:22:57 GMT -5 dee said:

That's terrific Sherry! That actually is my goal, too. To switch over to predominately raw.  I always questioned if it would have an effect on the dosage of pred. Now I have my answer.  But, I still have to feed them kibble when I'm away.  Is that going to be a problem?  I'm apprehensive about feeding raw because I do not want their diet to be unbalanced. How do I fix that?   The mentoring program is debunked and I need someone to help me though the transition.  I have so many questions for instance, Can I put a scrambled raw egg in there kibble/FDR mush?  I read that its  one per ferret.  Well, I have 5.  I guess, I would have to feed them separately, which is nearly impossible. Also, I've heard when buying meat from a grocery store, it has to be put in the freezer for 2 weeks to kill any bacteria.  Is that true? 
If anyone else has suggestions, please chime in.

Thanks!

Why would you need to kibble feed when you aren't home? I haven't had kibble in the house in years. 
From what I'm reading, you also feed FDR? Is there a reason you don't give two rehydrated meals a day, and just leave the FDR dry in the cage for in between snacking?
It is one egg per ferret per week.
And no, grocery store meat does NOT have to be frozen first. You are thinking of wild game/fish. That is for 3 weeks in a deep freeze to kill off any potential parasites/parasite eggs.

The reason for leaving kibble when I'm not at home is because of Sampson (insulinoma). I don't want him to have a hypoglycemic episode while I'm not there. He does eat the FDR dry but I leave the kibble as an extra food source in case he doesn't eat enough of it. As far as, feeding rehydrated FDR, I give them 2 to 3 meals of it along with a little bit of rehydrated kibble for gravy purposes.  They don't like it by itself. 

[Sherry]

I've also had a couple of ferrets with insulinoma. I just made sure they had enough raw in the cage to snack on. That is why their bg's held so much more stable.

[dee]

May 5, 2019 8:09:12 GMT -5 Sherry said:

I've also had a couple of ferrets with insulinoma. I just made sure they had enough raw in the cage to snack on. That is why their bg's held so much more stable.

How long can you leave raw in their cage for?  I know I read on this site of how long meat can stay out for but not sure where I saw it.  Also, can I give them boiled chicken and the water that it's boiled in?  I was thinking of buying chicken broth from the store but don't know if that's any good.

I also took two giant steps. I fed them an egg and I rehydrated their FDR w/o kibble as a gravy. They loved the egg and they ate the FDR as if there was kibble in it. Oh, and I bought raw chicken from the store.  I need a meat grinder though.

Thanks!

[Sherry]

I leave soup out up to about 8 hrs, grinds up to 12, same with smaller chunks. Large pieces up to 24 hrs, and whole prey up to 48.