Vanessa's Switching Thread/Sherry

[Heather]

Name: Vanessa

HF Forum Username: Vanessa

1. Where did you first learn about natural diets for ferrets? I first thought about it when researching the best food to switch my ferrets to. I am already a big advocate of raw food for dogs and so it seems even more logical to feed ferrets this way when I discovered they are strict carnivores.

2. Please describe the type of diet you would like assistance in switching your ferret(s) to. I would like to switch my ferrets to a locally produced BARF diet. I would also like to include chicken necks and potentially other raw meats a few times per week.

3. Why are you interested in switching your ferrets to a natural diet? I know the benefits of feeding a biologically appropriate diet for animals and feel that a BARF diet would decrease the diseases and potentially prolong the life of my ferrets.

4. Do you understand that switching your ferret to a natural diet can be a lengthy, arduous process? Its not an overnight switch. It can be a commitment of several weeks or even months. Your HF Mentor will be more then happy to assist you in switchng your ferret(s) to a natural diet, but you need to be equally as commited. If you aren't willing to tough out a potentially lengthy switching process, or if you have major life changes approaching (baby on the way, moving, starting school, getting married/divorced, etc) then it might be a better idea to wait on switching your ferret's diet until you have more time. Are you willing to make the commitment? YES!

5. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names? Ages? Genders? Do they have any health problems? Are they overweight? Underweight?
2 ferrets:
Thelma:11 months, female, no health problems, healthy weight
Louise: approx. 8 months, female, no health problems, healthy weight

6. What diet do you currently feed your ferrets? (Please include all treats, supplements, etc) I feed Wellness Core cat food, ferretone, and am attempting to feed Tollden Farms meat and botanical dinners

7. Have you ever tried to switch your ferrets to a natural diet in the past? If yes, what happened? Currently trying

8. What additional information about yourself or your ferrets would you like to share? I adopted these two ferrets one week ago from someone who did not want them and who did not take good care of them.

9. How often during the week do you have access to a computer? A few times per week

10. Please post a picture of each of your ferrets (if possible).

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Hi and welcome to the mentoring program. In a little while your mentor (sherry) will introduce herself and you can get started on a new adventure in natural ferret care and diets. Please remember to post regularly (daily or as per arranged with your mentor) so that your mentor can assist you move along safely in this adventure. If you experience computer difficulties or are going to be away, please notify your mentor and most of all relax and have fun . Your mentor is here to help you on this journey.
ciao

[Sherry]

Hello there! I'm Sherrylynne, and I'll be your mentor for their switch
First, a little about me. I'm 51, and have my own housecleaning business here in Calgary Alberta. I have 4 cats, ranging in age from 6yrs, to 17(only one would eat raw, unfortunately ). I also have 9 ferrets. Boris and Vincent came first, two brothers, a sable and albino. Then Sinnead. I got her when she was 2. She's now 5, and adrenal. She's on lupron, and I've decided against surgery for her.
After that came my first deaf ferret, Lucrezia. A marked DEW. Then two foster ferrets, whom we fell in love with and adopted- Zeus and Athena, both two years old at that time. Also both adrenal, and on lupron.
After that, a little abused ferret we called Willow. She was the worst fear biter I've had, although now she's becoming a sweetie . Then, Emily. 1 month younger than Willow, and those two have bonded strongly. She's the only one Willow wasn't terrified of.Suki is the last one, I swear! She was a little 8 month old darling the pet store was having a hard time selling, so were getting ready to send her back!
While transitioning the first four, Boris was my hold out. EVERYTHING I gave him was poison, in his mind . Worst little drama queen I've seen yet . Twisting to get away, gagging, retching- he did all of it! Then one day- he ate it! Every single piece on the plate ! Those four haven't looked back. Although Boris would still be a kibble head if I let him.
The next two for transitioning were the fosters. Until we adopted them, I could only supplement with raw. So in order not to cause unnecessary tummy upsets(mixing kibble and raw too closely can cause some problems- more about that later), I'd give them raw one day, and kibble on a different day. So, by the time we adopted, they had no problem with 100% raw diet.
With Willow, I brought her home, and she flatly refused to eat the totally ferret kibble, so I went back to the pet store and got her a small bag of the crap they were feeding them there, and brought it home. I tried to give her some, but she just upset the dish. So- I tried her with some chicken breast. She ate it up! Hasn't had kibble since . Emily came to us as a raw fed ferret, so no issues there. Suki was another kibble head, but caging her in the daytime with Miss Emily showed her how to eat raw.
That's me and mine in a nutshell

The reason I started looking a raw feeding was something my vet said to me. I was, at the time, giving them small pieces of fruit for treats. She told me that was VERY bad for them, and in fact, some studies have started to link early feeding of sugars with insulinoma later in life. So- I started thinking. Kibbles are full of carbs. It's all those grains/veg/fruits in them. Those are converted to sugars by the body. To me then, sugar= potential insulinoma.
So, I started checking out various diets. I had no idea what an obligate carnivore was at the time. I found out! Not much wonder there was soooo much poop in the box! I may as well have been tossing my money in there. They can't process anything that's not meat based! So I feed meat
Their fur is softer, their energy levels are amazing- no mad rushes then crashing. Even my three year old's teeth are amazing. No plaque whatsoever Healing is faster, and if they do get ill, they have more reserves to rely on than when they were just kibble fed!
And there is a LOT LESS POOP!!!! Yay!
I'm looking forward to helping your little ones get on a much healthier diet, and having fun while we're at it ;D

[vhoey39750]

Hi Sherry! Thank you for the help. I cant wait to start getting more feedback on this whole process.

To start, I am 26 years old, live in Toronto and own a dog walking business. I am not only new to switching my ferrets to raw but a new ferret owner. I only got my two 3 weeks ago. I had wanted ferrets for the last 7 years but the timing was never right. Mainly, the people I lived with wouldn't allow me to have them.

I have already started switching Thelma and Louise to a commercial barf food. It's 95% meat and 5% kelp, herbs/ greens and fish oil. Im hoping to start feeding a home made version as I've found its not that hard to do and cheaper! I think I'll need some help with that because I jumped the gun a little bit and bought a whole chicken from an asian market last monday. Needless to say, its still in my fridge because they didnt know what to make of the pieces I cut off it.

Currently my ferrets have made good progress. I have been able to move beyond turning the food into a soup to get them to eat it. They are now eating the ground food without added water and actually prefer it to the kibble I still have available to them. One of my ferrets was harder to switch. Louise was harder to get to eat the meat and meat soup than Thelma. She finally started liking the soup version but wasnt too interested in the solid ground food. I am not sure if it was timing or preference but when I switched from the beef variety to the chicken she started to eat it with a preference to it over kibble. What do u think? Also, what should be my first step in getting them to eat the pieces off my chicken carcass?

Thanks so much! I am really excited about getting help with this process.

[Sherry]

First- let me say congratulations on getting them to eat the full ground already . KThat's pretty darned impressive
As for why they prefer the chicken to the beef? Beef is much stronger tasting. They are accustomed to bland with kibble, so since chicken is also bland, it's generally preferred as a starter food.
Not to worry, we can likely get them eating beef further along
Now, to get them used to meats, take some of the chicken, cut it into slivers and try them with those. Make the bits just a wee bit larger than they are now eating with the grind. If they accept that, great! If not, you can start mixing them into their chicken grind slowly. Maybe 10% slivers to 90% grind.
And you can also get them eating the beef grind by doing the exact same thing.
You may want to cut up the chicken into smaller portions, and refreeze it by the way. That way, it doesn't go to waste.

[vhoey39750]

Thanks Sherry. Those are some great ideas for getting them to eat different animals and bigger chunks. I have portioned out the meat as well. Should i hold out on trying them to eat bone and just focus on the meat part of the chicken carcass or should I do both at the same time. They are eatting the ground bone now and it large enough that they have to chew it but still bite sized. Just not sure if they are ready for knawing.

Also, the chicken I bought was an 'old chicken'. I bought it because I figured it would be a good way to introduce them to pieces of meat without being wastefull. The whole chicken cost $1. I'm not sure if this would be good long term tho. Because the chicken is old it has a little less meat on the bones compared to a younger chicken. I know that can be supplemented but maybe the bones and cartilidge arent as nutritious?? What are your thoughts on feeding the old chickens long term?

[Sherry]

The ideal is to feed as much of a variety of ages as possible. And ferrets have high calcium needs- so the old birds will likely have as much, if not more, than a fryer for example.
As for eating bone, if they'll chew on it already, that's great. But I'd be surprised if they actually have the jaw strength required to crunch bones just yet. But if they'll take them, by all means let them.
Right now, they know raw is food, but to be honest- ferrets are very lazy eaters ;D If they don't have to chew larger pieces, or crunch bone- they won't! That's why you normally start them small and work up, so they don't become overwhelmed with the size they are faced with. That and the fact they can turn stubborn REALLY fast ;D .
As for feeding the older birds long term, they certainly have a place in the carnivore's diet. After all- it's the old and sick that would be brought down first in the wild.
I find it really helps to keep in mind what, and HOW, these creatures would feed on in the wild, like with their cousins the black footed ferret, and the polecats.
While, no- a ferret could not bring down something like a cow or deer, they would most certainly help themselves to a wolf's kill Also- when you are feeding the mince to them, start adding in a bit of stuff like pure pumpkin or squash(cooked) to replace the nondigestibles like fur, etc. It helps their digestive system function better.
Sorry- just checked. What you are buying at present has some veggie matter already in it, so that's ok
If you DO wind up getting just meat/bone/organ commercial raw, then look at doing that.

[vhoey39750]

Hi Sherry, so I tried your suggestion of adding small chunks of meat to the ground. My one ferret ate them. Also, found her knawing on a tendon on the chicken leg I had left in the cage last night. I think it was outta hunger because they had eatten all the food i had put in the cage earlier that day. I'm pretty excited about that. What is concerning me is that ive noticed some of the poop is abnormal. I think its from louise who is more difficult to switch. The reason i believe this is because the poop only started going weird once she started eating the raw last week. Also, ill know thelma went in the litterbox when ill find the abnormal poop on my floor and process of elimination! Anyhow, its softer than normal, sometimes like diarreah, its been green once or twice... She didn't have this issue with kibble.

Also, tonight, neither of them would eat the ground, they both just wanted kibble. Whats with that?!!

Should I be worried about any of these things?

Vanessa

[Sherry]

They are going to get "abnormal" stools from any diet switch, including raw. So that's not that unusual. And raw fed stools are much wetter, softer, and smaller than kibble fed. After all- there's virtually no bulk to it. No fillers, veg., grains, nothing.
For the small chunks, try to cut them just a wee bit larger than the size of the grind they are getting. They don't know how to chew yet, after all ;D Yes, it's a learning process for them as well! Make the bits about the size of the end of your pinkie nail. Just mix in a few right now, and increase daily, or every other day, as you decrease the grind at the same time.
For the sake of argument- you give them an ounce each of grind. Add in maybe 1/2 tsp sliver sized bits of meat. Decrease the grind by 1/2 tsp. so they are getting the same amount, but are also getting a bit more texture. It's not enough for them to rebel against it, but it's there. Next day, add a tsp of slivers, decrease the grind by 1 tsp, etc.
As for them wanting the kibble- it's because they are familiar with that, and they aren't yet with the raw.
Are you removing the kibble entirely now, or putting it back in sometimes for them? Since they DO know that raw is food, I'd leave the kibble in for about 10 hours so you can be sure they are getting enough nutrition, but leave them with raw for the rest of it. You may wind up doing some hand feeding to make sure they eat right now, but that's ok. It makes for some quality bonding time
When you put the kibble back in is up to you, either overnight, or during the daytime. Just make sure it's removed for at least 4-5 hours before offering the raw. They will sometimes get an upset tummy if one is fed too closely after the other. And having a bit of an appetite certainly doesn't hurt when trying to get them to eat it.

[vhoey39750]

Hi Sherry, so I tried your suggestion of adding small chunks of meat to the ground. My one ferret ate them. Also, found her knawing on a tendon on the chicken leg I had left in the cage last night. I think it was outta hunger because they had eatten all the food i had put in the cage earlier that day. I'm pretty excited about that. What is concerning me is that ive noticed some of the poop is abnormal. I think its from louise who is more difficult to switch. The reason i believe this is because the poop only started going weird once she started eating the raw last week. Also, ill know thelma went in the litterbox when ill find the abnormal poop on my floor and process of elimination! Anyhow, its softer than normal, sometimes like diarreah, its been green once or twice... She didn't have this issue with kibble.

Also, tonight, neither of them would eat the ground, they both just wanted kibble. Whats with that?!!

Should I be worried about any of these things?

Vanessa

[Sherry]

Ok, this is interesting. I wrote a reply to this about an hour ago, and it suddenly shows up as a new post with no reply???
Anyway- I'd not worry about the poops. It happens with any diet switch, even raw. They are also going to be slightly stressed by it. Ferrets stress over anything, good OR bad. Which will also cause funky poops. And raw fed ferrets will have smaller, wetter, softer stools than kibble fed. No bulk in it. You can always add about 1/2 tsp pure pumpkin per ferret to their meals. What we are doing here is trying to replicate what they would get with straight whole prey. Fur and all. That's where the veg. matter comes in. It replaces the nondigestibles.
As for adding the slivers of meat, they shouldn't be large enough for them to have to chew just yet, since they still don't know how. Make the bits about the size of the end of your pinky nail, and only mix in about 1/2 tsp of them to their commercial grind.
As for the kibble, I'd only give it to them for about 10 hours of the day. Leave them with raw for the rest, although you may wind up hand feeding them to make sure they are getting enough to eat of it. makes for some quality bonding time, too
The reason they want the kibble is because not only are they familiar with it, but carbs are also very addictive. It's how they break down to sugars in the body.

[vhoey39750]

Hi Sherry! Your message was posted. The funny thing was that mine was posted twice. Dunno whats up with that! Anyways, good news. I tried out the things you suggested. I removed the kibble during the day. I had tried that before but felt louise, the picky one, wasnt eatting enough. (thats despite her having gained a little weight since I started the switch) Today, unlike before, removing the kibble made her eat the raw more than ever before! They went through more meat today than ive seen before. Yay!!

I also tried chopping the chicken meat into the slivers like you said. Thelma was happy to chomp away on them, even the few pieces i made to be a bit bigger so I could see if she could chew them. I had a feeling she would be able to do it and she did! Louise on the other hand couldnt handle the bigger slivers but was fine with the really little ones. Louise is a few months younger and more delicate looking. Shes also about a pound less than Thelma at about 2 pounds. Is this the reason why she cant keep up with Thelma? Or maybe Thelma is just a little stronger than the average newbie? Also, should I continue having the two different sizes of chicken slivers or should I just go with the smaller ones while I wait for louise to catch up to thelma?

Also, in other news which I just haaveee to share (i'm so excited!) Thelma returned to the cage solely to use the litterbox during playtime!! I was sooo excited that shes learning to go there even when outta the cage!! It has been such an ordeal trying to teach them to use their litterbox while in the cage and in particular when out. Anyway, just had to mention it. Hooray!!

Thanks again for all your help! I feel like you must put a lot of time and effort into this website. Know that it is really appreciated

[Sherry]

Thanks To the litterbox question- I'm really surprised she returned to the cage. Most don't. Which is why we all keep a number of boxes/potty papers around the house ;D
If you are having trouble teaching them to potty in the box in the cage, follow this protocol- works every time if you stick with it:
holisticferret60.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=training&action=display&thread=108
And for Louise not "being up to" the larger slivers- I see you've got a little diva on your hands ;D Here's a picture of my little 500 gram girl with her favourite meal:

Don't forget(and don't let them fool you!), even a little tiny delicate girl is more than capable of opening up and eating from something the size of a rabbit ;D
It's just that our little house angels are so convinced they are incapable of doing that(and after all- we do cater to it), that they become intimidated by larger pieces. So- we go slowly. But before we are done here, you will be able to hang a chicken wing in it's entirety, and have both of them tearing pieces from it at the same time

[vhoey39750]

Hi Sherry! So you said that few ferrets return to their cage to go potty. I have a lotta experience training dogs and just tailored some of the concepts in potty training to my ferrets. Do you think it is impossible to train them to return to their cage? Do you think that Thelma returning was a fluke?

What i have been doing to train them is not letting them outta the cage until after they go potty. Once they go, I immediately let them out to reward them with playtime. If i know they only went #1 or didnt go at all I watch them like a hawk, waiting for them to try to go. Then I interrupt them and rush them to their litterbox and dont let them out of the cage till i see them go. I think that Thelma has started to connect going to the bathroom with attaining freedom.

Regarding the raw progress, they are both eatting the slivers and some small chunks. I also added some chicken ribs which they ate a bit of. I ended up doing about half commercial raw and half chicken carcass. Should I continue with this for a few more days or increase the size or amount of the chunks?

[vhoey39750]

Hi Sherry! So you said that few ferrets return to their cage to go potty. I have a lotta experience training dogs and just tailored some of the concepts in potty training to my ferrets. Do you think it is impossible to train them to return to their cage? Do you think that Thelma returning was a fluke?

What i have been doing to train them is not letting them outta the cage until after they go potty. Once they go, I immediately let them out to reward them with playtime. If i know they only went #1 or didnt go at all I watch them like a hawk, waiting for them to try to go. Then I interrupt them and rush them to their litterbox and dont let them out of the cage till i see them go. I think that Thelma has started to connect going to the bathroom with attaining freedom.

Regarding the raw progress, they are both eatting the slivers and some small chunks. I also added some chicken ribs which they ate a bit of. I ended up doing about half commercial raw and half chicken carcass. Should I continue with this for a few more days or increase the size or amount of the chunks?

[Sherry]

With ferrets, they are very much like a toddler. It's all "play, play, play, play- GOTTA GO NOW!!!!!" and they really don't usually have time to make it back to the box in the cage. So, no- I don't think the same thing applies to ferrets as it does to dogs.
That said- I have had one ferret(out of 9 ) run to get to his box/paper in time. And from upstairs to down, no less ;D Once. Only that one time. Mine will all go(or pretend to go ) before they come out of cage. But once they are out, it's an entirely different story. Mine are all 100% in the cage. Out of cage? It varies between about 30% to 100%. I've only got a couple who will consistently use the paper or box. You can certainly try, but please don't get frustrated if they don't/can't live up to it
As for the raw transition, if they'll take a bit more of the slivers/chunks with every meal, do so. If they start to rebel, take it back a notch. You can only push them as far as they are willing to go, or they'll quit eating for you. That's the problem with most ferrets. The little beggars are quite willing to starve themselves if they thing that something better will come along, or if they simply don't recognize what you are feeding as food