Older Ferrets with New Younger Ferret

[topher8]

Hello,
Somewhat new ferret owner. Recently I've had two 3.5 year old male ferrets for several months now. They've been great except the one has really shown lack of energy. Every so often he gets excited about some things but then starts to speed bump or lay down after as if he's tired. Brought him to the vet, waiting on blood results for him. Ended up taking them to a pet store and somehow they started hitting it off with a younger ferret there. All of them dooking and the low energy ferret was perking up. Stupid me thought "Hey wow, maybe he just needs a younger or different playmate. They all seem to get along." We even put them in the cage at the pet store and they seemed fine, no aggression and bouncing around. So I caved in and bought the younger ferret....well I'm on day 5 now and its been nothing but a disaster to say the least. I'm assuming its all territorial but basically the low energy ferret ignores and even goes after the young ferret I bought. He's gripped him by the throat a couple times and made the younger ferret squeel. No blood, but still scary to watch. Just yesterday the normal older ferret (he seems like the alpha) seemed like he snapped and just pinned down the young ferret and shook him. It definitely wasn't a play move, it was like he had him pinned down and he was drinking his blood! Checked for scars/blood and none - but it was odd to see since he's normally the more relaxed one. It was like he just snapped and was sick of the younger guy and went for him. Weird thing is...the younger ferret squeels and runs but I never see him flare up his tail and minutes later he's bouncing around the ferret that just attacked him. Overall its like the younger ferret takes a beating but bounces back and doesn't seem to be scared of them. The older ferrets however obviously feel threatened and are not happy. Now when he bounces around them they don't even tolerate it, it's like they go right for the back of the neck, pin him down and just keep him there. I have the younger ferret in a smaller cage in a separate room now. Even weirder, a couple times the younger ferret has snuck into their cage (I leave it open when they run around) passed out in a hammock and one of the older ferrets goes and snuggles up with him....so I can't tell if they hate eachother or what? I've read persistance is the key with introducing a new little guy so I try to get them to interact at least once a day but will they eventually get along? They obviously have no problem sleeping in the same hammock but when running around the older guys seem to get upset real quick. Will they eventually just tolerate him? I know he's younger and way more energy, that's why I was shocked they got along at the pet store. But now it's like a totally different situation...I'm wondering how I should proceed with getting the older guys to get along with the younger newbie. Any advice would be appreciated!

[runningdog]

It’s normal for ferrets to grab each other’s scruffs and shake each other around in play. They wrestle a lot, throw each other down, do death-rolls while holding another’s neck or throat or ear; it can look and sound quite alarming to us wimpy humans but if there’s no fear-stink, no blood and no poop being dropped on the floor during the wrestle, then it’s no foul by ferret rules. If they’re willing to sleep together and share a food dish then they’re friendly. It can sound alarming, too, but there’s a difference between a play-squeal that says ‘ow, that was a bit hard!’ (like kids getting a bit too rough) and a real ‘you’re killing me!’ scream, which is accompanied by bloodshed, the skunk-stink of a terrified ferret letting off and probably also a fear-poop. Ferrets also have incredibly tough skins, particularly on their necks, and they can take a lot of rough-housing with each other without any damage. That’s why young ferrets need to be taught not to bite humans - their natural bite-strength is normal play-strength for other ferrets, they have to learn humans are fragile in comparison.

I have two young boys and two young girls in my group at the moment and all seven ferrets sleep in a heap, share food dishes and hammocks, but the old boys will gang up and mug a young hob (boy) sometimes; there’s a lot of squealing and wrestling and then after a bit they’ll wander off again or I’ll break it up and distract everyone and all’s fine again. The four youngsters do nothing but play non-stop when they’re out of their cage, wrestling and chasing each other while the three older ones do their own things more quietly. That doesn’t stop the youngsters occasionally bouncing on the big boys and getting chased, or the girls will even sneak up on the oldest one and nip his ears before running away, almost like kids playing knock-and-run. 

You’re right that it’s a territorial thing - in the pet shop your older ones weren’t on their own ground and at home they are, so now the young one’s intruding into their space. They obviously get on okay basically, if there’s no tail-fluffing, fear-pooping and the young one’s not hiding at the sight of the older ones, so give it time and try to keep your nerve. They’ll settle down in a while, gradually. 

In the meantime the older guys are in the position of being landed with a hyperactive toddler and they’re probably fed up of being pestered for play all the time. Try giving the young one a really good play session by himself with loads of tug-games, towel-wrestling and running about so he’s taken the edge off his energy before the older guys have to put up with him, but young ferrets are practically inexhaustible (they’re either flat out running or flat out sleeping) so he’ll have to learn his boundaries with the other two. That’s what they’re teaching him with the wrestling and pinning-down. It’s a good idea to give the older ones a bit of peace and quiet each day by taking the youngster off for a while, but try not to be scared by the noise and keep them apart too much. While you’re there to supervise and rescue the youngster if he annoys the old guys too much, let them play and wrestle and the youngster will find his level. 

The problem now is that you may find ferret maths kicks in. What your youngster needs is another youngster to play with...... careful, it’s a slippery slope!

[Sherry]

Did a BG test get done while at the vet? Insulinoma and/or adrenal are the major reason for the type of lethargy you are describing. BG is done in house (get your answer in 30 seconds or less), and adrenal panel isn't worth the money. Using a des implant or monthly lupron shots are the best indicator. They work it's adrenal. They don't change anything and they have done no harm.
With the young one, it does sound like rough ferret play. If they were cayially hurting him, he'd not come back nor curl up with them

[Heather]

It does sound like the baby is getting dusted because he's the baby. They are always the bottom of the business and the whole business will take turns at reminding him. If he's running away and hiding then there are problems but if he keeps coming back for more then he's ok with his treatment. Babies get dragged, hidey-holed and beaten. It's really a wonder they survive at all lol.
The other consideration is that the fellow you've noticed to be lethargic, is adrenal, as Sherry mentioned. This would account for his more hobbish treatment of the baby and being rougher with the discipline
ciao

[topher8]

Thank you for all the advice!
The whole situation is odd....just the other day I plopped the alpha ferret in the hammock with the youngster just to see what would happen (supervising intensely ofcourse) and the big boy started licking the youngster....this is the same ferret that earlier that same day he had him pinned to the ground with jaws locked! I totally get the energy thing, maybe he was just fed up with him and hunted him down to shut him up...Maybe I'm just new to the level of violence but it looks pretty intense. Scares me to death, the youngster makes a long drawn out whine and the older one normally is just frozen in position holding him down and jaws locked - sometimes even starts shaking. Also one time the OTHER older ferret even started to come over quickly as if he was about to join in the assault while the youngin was pinned down and squeeling. I quickly pushed him away and broke up the fight, had to pry his jaws off the poor guy. Then the little guy sprinted out of there. I did notice that the last time the alpha older ferret had a puffed up tail but not the youngster...it's like they are most afraid of him instead of the other way around. And when you say "wrestle" maybe I just haven't waited long enough but to me it looks like a deathblow - no tumbling or flipping - just locked in and pinned straight to the ground. Also I noticed no hissing, just the baby squeeling. Recently the alpha just hunted him down pinned him to the ground and held him there like he was just draining him of life while the youngster squeeled with mercy. Again, I'm new to it so I jumped up and broke them up quickly. I guess my question is...how far do I let them take it? How do I know when to stop them? It's agonizing to watch the poor baby just pinned to the ground and obviously I want to avoid bloodshed...maybe I'm just not waiting long enough? I've seen the older ferrets wrestle and it never looks this intense. I guess last time it was especially scary because the other older ferret looked like he was about to join in for the kill! And sometimes the youngster does run from them when he sees them but usually only after a fight and never a puffed up tail on sight or fear poops. Also both older ferrets seem to be more moody overall, generally less playful at the sight of the younger ferret - they usually go to a favorite spot and just curl up under there. I guess I just feel horrible trying to make their life more fun and it turning into a miserable experience for everyone...do I continue the attempt to get them to get along? I just hope the young guy doesn't get traumatized. He seems like he's alright, in fact when he's out and about he seems like the happiest little guy ever. But attack after attack I just hope he doesn't get depressed or lonely...sorry for the ramble. Just looking for answers to this painful experience and I hope they all eventually just get along.

[LindaM]

Puffed up tail doesn't simply denote fear, it also denotes things like excitement (in good ways and some less good ways). So I wouldn't quite look at it in the way that the older ones feared this youngster. I was playing with all my ferrets yesterday, running around and letting them chase me down, and Ares had such a sport he was dooking his butt off and his tail was triple sized from being puffed up.

Generally speaking, no blood, no pee, no poop, then no foul. They'll work it out. Does it scare the living jeebies out of you when you are new to it? YES! I remember crying the first time I saw it happened, I was in a whole tizzy of a panic over it. But it needs to be done, a newcomer must find their place in the hierarchy.. and the others will be telling him what his rank is. The newcomers don't always agree and they can scuffle it out quite a lot until agreement gets reached between them, at which stage they'll curl up and sleep together without a care for the new gray hairs on your head.

There are always risks in introductions, sometimes ferrets do not take to one another at all, and it ends up a nasty mess of "I hate you forever, I'll rip your face off", or a more mellow "just stay out of my way, I don't actually care that you're here but we aren't friends", sometimes it's like instant glue to each other, other times it takes a wee bit of time and even work, and they end up happily ever after in the end. But there is never a guarantee, just like us, they can decide how they feel about another ferret.

Also, try and keep introductions to a neutral area.. popping baby into a place specifically their territory may instigate harsher responses too. Granted.. when I got Athena, I'd pop her to sleep in Loki's cage while he was out of it and roaming in the day so she could get her smell all over his goodies and come to terms with her better, and for me it worked, but I can't say it will be a success for anyone else for sure.

As for the other issues with the older ferret and lethargy, definitely see about a BG (Blood Glucose) test, if they didn't perform that along with the blood work panel you are waiting on, to see if insulinoma is a concern as he's of the age it starts showing up usually. And as Sherry and Heather mentioned, Adrenal is the other bad culprit, so you'll have to talk to your vet about seeing if you can get the DES(Deslorelin/Suprelorin) implant done, or a trial of Lupron injections for a few months if the vet doesn't want to implant the ferret yet. Implanting tends to be your better cost-effective option in the long run.

[topher8]

Well...
I have to admit I don't know as much as you all, especially after today...I do have somewhat better news.
So I let them out today in nuetral territory and for the most part things were normal, I tried to play with them as separate parties and let them just do their thing. Then the alpha definitely creeped in on him and began to target him just like before. He eventually clamped him down just as I described and I watched the poor little guy screech in what looked like a heart wrenching death strike. I contained myself the best I could and watched very closely to his neck for blood or any sign of injury as the alpha continued to pin him. The alpha began dragging him to what looked like where he stashes his toys which made me even more scared, like he was treating the youngin like a carcas! I continued to watch very closely in what felt like an eternity of squeeling from the little guy and eventually after about the longest minute of my life he broke free! He started fighting back. They tossed and turned and then I saw the normal rolls I see in a "normal fight" rather than what looks like a deathblow. I continued to watch closely kind of staying out of it...no blood, no scars. The little guy kept fighting back and then kept losing while the alpha pinned and sometimes shook him. Again only the alpha had his tail poofed and the little guy didn't seem to hiss or poof his tail just squeel his lungs out. Eventually they tossed and turned and it kind of broke up by itself. The alpha laid to what looked like a victory pose and the little guy sprinted away. I picked him up, no damage that I saw, no blood, no poop or pee. In fact when I put the little guy back on the ground he then sprinted to where I laid my shoes and started playing with that instead as if nothing bad had happened....amazing! You are absolutely right, it is so painful to watch...everytime I thought I had to get ready to call emergency vet or plan my new ferrets funeral. But you guys were right...seems they just had to duke it out and then things just went back to normal play. Pretty crazy that is how they handle things...also scary to watch. But now I know, I feel way less panicked. In fact it happened two more times in an hour and the little guy put up a bigger fight but still lost. Again, sprinted away and ran around happy as a clam as if nothing happened....Phew! I'm clearly way too new to this because from my perspective it looks like they are killing him! I will continue to monitor the situation and now I know what to look for. I truly appreciate the wonderful advice and putting my fears to ease. I think moving forward will be much less stressful.
Thank you all!

[LindaM]

You are most welcome. You will get there, don't worry too much and try to enjoy the journey. Remember, we were all once where you are now, some of us more recently and some of us years ago, but we were all once there.

My four ferrets are quite bonded with one another and are seen sleeping piled with one another in sessions or one big pile rather than anyone ever by themselves... and they still drag each other all over the floor. Athena is our alpha... and she will beat you the heck up if you cross her, but that hasn't stopped either of the three boys from dragging her off a distance before she kicked the snot out of them. The boys will also cart each other off like that. Yesterday, Apollo instigated war on his brother Ares, the next moment Loki storms over and grabs Ares by the neck and drags him off back into the ferret room for no reason I could even think of.

Once you get used to it.. it's like "oh well, at it again". Though even now, I still check mine over afterwards, especially if it looked bad, and I have broken them up before too, like when Loki tried to drag Athena off by her eyebrow two weekends ago. It may all be play between them now, but damages can still occur during such play. But the dominance scuffle is one that absolutely must occur, and works best if one doesn't keep interrupting that one when it's not dire.

The wee ones get beaten up quite a bit, they are also persistent which means they get beaten up more, but somehow they magically survive quite some punishments. That's not to say it doesn't go south sometimes, you just always need to be prepared to step in when it actually gets ugly, hence the no blood, no pee, no poop, then it's okay rule.

Let us know how your fuzzies progresses and if they end up friends with one another.

[Heather]

Oh, the beating of the baby ferret....the mental anguish of the ferrant....so totally get it. I found myself in a position of having to get a baby ferret. Sounds stupid. I'd never bought a ferret, I was the go to person for aggressive ferrets with the shelter/rescue I was working with. I had never dealt with anything younger than about 9 months. I got a senior ferret come in, he went into shelter shock and somehow I managed to get him to come around by putting him in with a wee sprite. He was her shadow. An odd relationship because she really didn't seem to care that much for him, he worshipped her. She passed on, within days I knew I was going to loose him. You would think with a dozen ferrets to choose from he'd have no problems finding a friend. Nope. None of them. The shelter I worked with had no one. So I called another shelter. Yes, she had ferrets but I had to ADV test all of my guys and get the results before Meeteef could come choose a friend. I didn't have that kind of time. I was already syringe feeding him and he was locking his jaws refusing food. A friend who was working at a pet store, called me and said they'd got a shipment of baby ferrets, so young they still had their stitches. She was on that night, we'd put Meeteef in with them and see if he would make friends. I drove down that night. There was a whole cage of little sable baby ferrets.....about half a dozen. We put Meeteef in with them. They all bounced around inviting him to play.....my heart sank as I watched him practice ignore, and go curl up in the back of the cage away from the little hooligans. As I watched the little ones became tired and formed a little fertpile in a ferret cube, my Meeteef off alone in his corner. Eventually, this little ball of fluff broke away from his friends and curled up with Meeteef. Meeteef got up and moved to another place, this little fuzzball followed. As we watched Meeteef started to groom the wee troublemaker. I bought him. As he was so young and Meeteef and he were bonding, I put them up in the playpen. The rest of the business showed interest but Meeteef would fend them off. Within a couple of days the business was climbing into the pen doing intros with the baby. The baby, within a couple of days figured out how to climb out of the pen (no special thanks to the rest of my crew). My intro to his first escape was a blood curdling scream and there went the baby, dragged down the hallway to be stashed under my bed. The sprite who had stashed him cleaned his ears, he screamed, she screamed and eventually he escaped. I don't know how many times he got his sorry butt stashed. He'd lie there and take it, scream when it was expected bounce away, bite someone's butt or jump on someone and once again get his sorry butt handed to him. The discipline was sometimes horrible to watch and even worse to listen to, though I did discover it wasn't always him screaming....sometimes it was my deafies who were doing the shrieking even though they were administering the beating. Eventually, he grew up to be the largest and the strongest, earning the title of alpha. Even once I had to run 2 or 3 groups he moved easily between these groups never having to see the inside of a cage. Ferrets play hard and fast. The babies are only babies for a few weeks, by the time they're 4 months old they're expected to fit into the business and take their lumps. Babies always start out as the bottom.....they then work their way deposing various members until they challenge the strongest. It's the ferret way. We insist on keeping them as kits in groups, no matter how it works, they have their hierarchies. No, it's not how it's supposed to be but because of how we keep them it is how it works out.
ciao

[topher8]

Thank you again for all the advice. Since I've backed off on their challenges I think things are at least looking better. The alpha ferret seems to at least show interest in him now. He still chases him down and drags him around. Again...I think I'm just too new to it - it's heart breaking to watch and listen to. Either way I saw them napping together in my cage hours later after the fight so I know at least they don't want to kill eachother yet. Another weird thing - so the young guy found a tub stopper he likes to drag around the bathroom. The alpha never ever showed interest in this thing. Now since the young guy is playing with it the alpha is all over it. Even to the point of while the little guy is playing with it he just runs over and steals it from him. I'm guessing again it's a territorial thing? And that's way better than listening to the little guy scream his lungs out. Just kind of funny how they establish dominance, feels like its kids on a playground kind of environment. I have another issue with my other older guy but I will make a separate post on the topic to keep things clean. But overall this problem seems at least more tolerable. Thank you for the advice or else I'm pretty sure I would have gone into a panic attack!

[Sherry]

What one ferret has must be the absolute best thing ever and has to be stolen lol

[topher8]

I guess so! Hahaha

[topher8]

The fights have definitely gone down a peg, much less aggressiveness and way more dominance/play fighting. The baby still seems to provoke the play and when he loses he runs for his life. He eventually gets all amped up again and instigates another battle, so I guess that's just how it goes. They sleep together now, no fights that looked painful, and they definitely seem more friendly.

[Sherry]

Sounds like he's been accepted

[topher8]

The older guys definitely lay down the law sometimes. But normally it's when the little one instigates play and maybe they just want no part in it. I'm guessing that's normal. Like the alpha sometimes will look completely serious and start following him around like he means business. But they have their brawl and the little one will sometimes run for the hills but seems completely fine and maybe 30 minutes later walk back up to his attacker as if nothing happened...so I'm guessing that means all is good.