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Post by LindaM on Mar 7, 2017 15:06:26 GMT -5
Yes, beef tongue is very high in taurine, which makes it a suitable substitute if you are having trouble sourcing hearts, but it shouldn't replace hearts entirely I believe, as hearts also contain other nutrients. Though I think using it for the .5 heart meal would be just fine, it'll also help keep your ferrets used to eating tongue so you don't need to struggle introducing it if you're ever in a situation where you can't get hearts for a while.
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grimtas
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Post by grimtas on Mar 8, 2017 10:56:39 GMT -5
LindaM, Thank you for confirming on the beef tongue I thought I had read that here I just couldn't find it again and didn't have the time to search. Hearts do not seem to be a problem around here I have steady access to piles of chicken hearts and found pork heart in the local asian market so I should be ok on that front. In fact I think I have 6 lbs of heart (Mostly chicken) in the freezer already. Update on progress: It's Wednesday so weight day for the fuzzies this evening I'll post above photos and hanging pics and updated weights in the morning. Nothing spectacliar from yesterday, I don't think they are too keen on the rabbit but they will get there. Poops are getting better now they are eating bone instead of the eggshell in the soup. I don't think I added enough to the batches I was using 1/2 tsp per batch, but that seems to be resolved now. Had one bout of very loose poop from Mischief but it was between two normal poops so I'm not overly concerned there. All seem to be eating well and the bowls have 2-3oz of the 12 oz feedings remaining between meals. I hate the store bought hammocks I have in their cage, (They are behind the blanket hammock on the top level) They never use them for anything other then a stash spot. I generally leave the stash's alone for 24 hours but clean them out every morning. I did try to make them a feeding den but they decided they liked that better as a litter box so for now I removed it. Reading some FN cage mods on this forum I'm thinking I'm going to eliminate the bottom shelf and create a toilet area below the cage with a tube run between. This in my opinion will give them even more room for playing. Once I get settled on the home repairs I'll make the effort for the litter tray mod.
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Post by Sherry on Mar 8, 2017 11:03:02 GMT -5
Wow, you are doing REALLY well Since they seem to be taking to the chunks, why not try just those with a "topping" of a thinner soup, sort of like gravy on fries? The ages they are at, they should transition to full on bone in fairly quickly, so the faster you move them along, the better
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Post by LindaM on Mar 8, 2017 13:18:14 GMT -5
You're welcome. I'm glad to hear the fuzzies are doing so good. Like Sherry said, if they're eating the chunks now, you can start decreasing the soup to only a bit on top for encouragement, and see how they do with it. They might simply just gobble up th bowl of chunks like that already, putting you another step forward. Haha, I've never had mine stash anything in their hammocks, then again, mine don't eat in the cage, they eat in the kitchen since I let them free-roam. This of course does end up meaning that they stash meat in my bedroom under furniture like the dressing table and bedside tables, well, Athena stashes at least, and Loki will just eat from the existing stash instead of stashing anything himself. I did find him with a dried chunk of meat inside my husband's sock drawer once though, who the heck knows why he thought he had to eat it up in there. Stashing is pretty normal for them to do though, sometimes they like to put a little of something somewhere for later, and will likely hope amongst themselves that another doesn't get into their stash and eat the yummy they saved. I clean out stashes after 24 hours too. I've gotten into the habit of doing the organ meals as tiny slivers or puree to make sure it's eaten and doesn't end up in my bedroom. The other meats are fine to stash, they just air-dry naturally, and don't rot since we keep our home at a rather cool temperature at all times. Athena loves making jerky this way. Pity about the feeding den though... did you try to teach them what it was first by placing a bowl of food in it a few feedings? Oh and as a reminder about how long things are usually fine to be left out: Soups: 6-8 hours Grinds: 8-12 hours Chunks: 10-24 hours (depending on size eg. the bigger the chunks are, the longer they'll last) Bone-in Meats: 12-24 hours (again, depending on size) Whole Prey: up to 48 hours
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grimtas
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Post by grimtas on Mar 9, 2017 10:52:54 GMT -5
Sherry I have reduced their thick soup to 3oz per meal and make up the remaining 9oz with what is on the menu for the day. I intend to be eliminating the soup all together soon as you stated I'm using it to entice them to try the new proteins and/or eat the larger chunks or chopped bone-in. What I mean by the chopped bone-in is for chicken wings I cut the tips into 4-5 pieces, split the knuckles on the center section and cut into 4-5 pieces, and cut the drumette on a bias so they can get to the marrow. My next run as I've not run out of the chicken wing I'll try the smash technique I read on this board to slightly break up the bones and feed the next bone-in tonight as whole wing sections. I am pushing them hard and very proud of their progress thus far I was worried at one point that Mischief and Mayhem (My eldest) were going to give me more trouble the my little two. They have been coming around nicely now. LindaM as they don't sleep in the store bought hammocks I'm ok with Havoc stashing there at least I know where to look first The other three only stash (Sometimes) under the sofa during the initial feeding time. I feed them as soon as I'm awake in the morning or when I get home in the evenings. It's ~12 hours between their feedings and they are allowed to free room the entire house except bathrooms/bedrooms. They really enjoy running up and down the stairs for some reason. I start their feeding in the kitchen on a small serving tray (orange) that they all know now what that tray is for and usually stand on it while I'm making breakfast/dinner. I place their bowls down they have a sniff, maybe a nibble or two, sometimes runoff with a large piece to stash under the sofa then off to play. When it's time for them to return to their cage I place their bowls there and they mostly eat whenever they want in their cage. Thank you for the reminder on how long the food can remain out I've been following those rules closely. As for the feeding den, I did place their food dish inside when I first introduced it to the cage, however it was at the same time I added a rice digging den and more blankets to reduce the number of litter trays I had in the cage. They were being stubborn and messing where they shouldn't have. I reviewed the litter box boot camp and a few other threads which is where I learned about the additional blankets. I think the above was a little too much change all at once so they rebelled with the feeding den. I'll try it again later.
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grimtas
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Post by grimtas on Mar 9, 2017 11:05:52 GMT -5
Now for the fuzzie stats I promised. Mayhem: 2Lbs 14.5oz Mischief: 2Lbs 12oz Scamp: 2Lbs 8.3oz Havoc: 2Lbs 6oz There was a slight fluctuation from last week and I'm not so sure my weights are very accurate. They don't sit still long enough on my kitchen scale IMO to get good weights. Treats, egg, salmon oil are not currently working. I have some walking harnesses on order and I have a 50LB hanging scale (Need a new battery) that I'll try to weight them that way for more accuracy in the future. Now the pics: Mayhem: Mischief: Scamp:(I had to scruff for the photo he wouldn't stay still) Havoc: (I had to scruff for the photo he wouldn't stay still, and was too excited for the top photo so I caught him in attack mode) Last night's dinner did not go so well, it was heart night. I put out 12oz of just pureed heart and 6.8oz remained this morning so I don't think they were too keen on it yesterday. This morning to make sure they got their required heart I added an additional 6oz of pureed heart to 6oz of soup plus their second half of there weekly eggs to this mornings breakfast. Will see how it goes. I don't mind stepping back a step or two while I'm finalizing a weekly menu and using soup to make sure they are getting a good balance. I'm hoping to not be using soup any longer within the next two weeks or so but will continue to use it if they get stubborn. The Poops: This morning all four released what I would call newborn tar poops (Thought I got over that stuff long ago as my kids are all grown now) Black tarry poops my guess from the pure heart dinner last night and from reading should be normal for an organ meal.
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Post by LindaM on Mar 9, 2017 15:19:13 GMT -5
Haha, their little minds were probably all "Wait..wha.. what now daddy? What is all this for? Which is WHICH!? Too much change!!! I confuuuuusssed!" *protest poop* Once they actually learn what each thing is for initially, it gets easier to switch things up for them every once in a while. Sometimes that will excite them because it's all new and nice, and sometimes you'll get a grump who gets annoyed that you did that. I'd give the den a shot again later once things have settled down a bit, they might take to it better the second time. The fuzzbutts are looking lovely. And Mischief is freaking adorable... that face! As for the tarry poops, that'll be the heart, yes. Organ meals really make for nasty, runny, dark, tar-like poops (this is due to the higher blood content). Which is why in general people will try to do a bone-in meal after organ meals, to help firm up the poops again. And as for being done with needing to inspect poops and such since your kids are grown.. haha, you just got 4 new babies all over and your life just became their poop journal. In ferrets, poop is life. I've NEVER, EVER inspected and dissected poops as much in my life before. My mother, other than thinking we're a bit insane about it all, also believes it's great practice for when we finally decide to give her a grandchild.
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Post by Sherry on Mar 10, 2017 9:15:30 GMT -5
It sounds like you are doing really well And yes, those stools are from the heart meal. Great idea mixing the remainder into this morning's meal also!
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grimtas
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Post by grimtas on Mar 10, 2017 10:22:03 GMT -5
Not much to report this morning, the fuzzies energy levels are still very high, they are always happy to see me when I get home. The poops are back to normal after a few bone-in meals. I added fresh heart in the amount they left the night before I just want to make sure they get all the nutrients they need from each meal a partial bone-in to add back the organs/heart they didn't consume I didn't see much harm in that and it made sure IMO they are getting a good balance. They ate all the remaining heart that was mixed with the soup and some bone-in from yesterdays breakfast.
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Post by Sherry on Mar 11, 2017 7:45:21 GMT -5
I do something similar As long as they are getting balance overall they'll do just fine! I have also been known to give nothing but cut up wings 3 days in a row if they stop eating their bones for no good reason
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grimtas
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Post by grimtas on Mar 13, 2017 9:57:00 GMT -5
Mixed results over the weekend, I'm trying to completely remove the 3oz of soup from the fuzzies meals. So far great progress is being made with Bone-In and Muscle without the soup. The organ/heart meals they are still being resistant. I'll prove to be more stubborn I don't think they like beef too much so need to work on that. They love the frog legs, quail, chicken, rabbit thus far. I need to defrost and portion out the duck I have to get them started on that and get some pork and beef to add to the mix as well.
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Post by Sherry on Mar 13, 2017 10:22:27 GMT -5
You are doing so well And if you have to make an organ soup go ahead. I still puree organs since I know they will eat them better that way Could I get you to write up a menu using what you are right now? Just to get an idea of where it may need to be tweaked.
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grimtas
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Post by grimtas on Mar 13, 2017 12:35:58 GMT -5
Sherry , This is the menu they have been on the last week BOLD is the actual feeding.• Monday am: Chicken Wings / Frog Legs / Quail (Bone-In) (3Oz Soup, 9Oz Quail)(Leftovers 2.95Oz)• Monday pm: Chicken Wings / Frog Legs / Quail (Chicken Thigh / Lamb / Pork / Beef / Rabbit)(Bone-In / Muscle) (3Oz Soup, 3Oz, Quail, 6Oz Rabbit Ribs)(Leftovers 4Oz)• Tuesday am: Chicken Wings / Frog Legs / Quail (Bone-In), Two Eggs (3Oz Soup, 4Oz Rabbit Ribs, 5Oz Chicken wings, Two Eggs) (Leftovers 4.15Oz)• Tuesday pm: Chicken Thigh / Lamb / Pork / Beef / Rabbit (Muscle) (3Oz Soup, 3.5Oz Pork back, 5.5Oz Chicken Thigh)(Leftovers 3.3Oz)• Wednesday am: Chicken Wings / Frog Legs / Quail (Bone-In), 6 drops salmon oil (3Oz Soup, 9Oz Frog Legs, salmon oil) (no leftovers)• Wednesday pm: Chicken Heart (Heart) (12oz Pureed Chicken heart)(Leftovers 6.8Oz)• Thursday am: Chicken Wings / Frog Legs / Quail (Bone-In), Two Eggs (6Oz Soup, 6.8Oz Pureed Chicken heart, two eggs)(Leftovers 3.1Oz)• Thursday pm: Chicken Wings / Frog Legs / Quail (Chicken Thigh / Lamb / Pork / Beef / Rabbit) (Bone-In / Muscle) (3Oz Soup, 9Oz Chicken Wings)(Leftovers 2.85Oz)• Friday am: Chicken Wings / Frog Legs / Quail (Bone-In), 6 drops salmon oil (3Oz Soup, 9Oz Chicken wings, salmon oil)(Leftovers 3.6Oz)• Friday pm: ½ Beef Tongue + ¼ Liver (Chicken / Pork / Beef) + ¼ other organ (6Oz Sliced Beef tongue, 3Oz Sliced Pork kidney, 3Oz Chicken liver)(Leftovers 4.35Oz)• Saturday am: Chicken Wings / Frog Legs / Quail (Bone-In) (3Oz soup, 9Oz Quail)(Leftovers 3.1Oz)• Saturday pm: Chicken Thigh / Lamb / Pork / Beef / Rabbit (Muscle) (2Oz Chicken thigh, 6Oz Chicken gizzard-Rough chop, 4Oz Lamb)(Leftovers 1.85Oz)• Sunday am: Chicken Wings / Frog Legs / Quail (Bone-In) (2.4Oz Frog Legs, 2.7Oz Quail, 7.9Oz Chicken wings)(Leftovers 4.15Oz)• Sunday pm: ½ Liver (Chicken / Pork / Beef) + ½ other organ (6Oz Pureed Chicken liver, 6Oz Sliced Pork Kidney), (Leftovers 6.55Oz)
To add the quail is simply cut into small portions, chicken wings I process by separating all three sections (Tip bones are smashed with the back of the cleaver and cut in half, middle is cut between the two bones and smashed with the back of the cleaver then cut into thirds, drumette smashed with back of the cleaver and cut into thirds/fourths) Frog legs are cut into 1" sections from feet to hips at the hips I separate the legs and chop through the bone to make it easier for the little guys. Muscle meat is served in roughly 1" cubes or slices.
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Post by LindaM on Mar 13, 2017 13:32:23 GMT -5
It sounds like things have been going really well. So proud of you guys! As for organs, they're smellier than other meats, so some ferrets take a bit of getting used to them. Like Sherry said, if you gotta puree them into a soup, go ahead. I do my organ meals cut up as very tiny slivers or a puree too, simply because I want to know they are eating it, and not stashing it in our bedroom under the furniture, eww. I also had to tempt mine to eat them at first, using a bit of their old soup, salmon oil, crumble of FDR treat over it, or even a drizzle of raw egg. Loki was more stubborn than Athena, so I had to end up using all of those in rotation until it took. Beef is a pretty much hated protein in our house. While both of mine will eat it, they are never happy about it nor enthusiastic. And I still get those looks of "Mommy, you're a monster!" Unlike most other meats, beef tends to taste and smell stronger to them, and this can make some hesitant at first, or even just downright dislike it. Which is a pity, beef is a very easy, and even cheap protein to get a hold of by comparison to others. See if you can get them better used to the taste by mixing it in with other meals, either as a soup, or as really small slivers so that it's harder for them to pick the other meats they might like out from between them. Looking at your menu, what do you do with all your leftovers? Do you just trash? I recall you saying you gave the leftover heart again the next morning added to that morning's meal. Do you do the same with other meals then? Looking at the amounts of leftovers, I would say you can decrease the amount you are feeding some to not have too much waste, but it seems like they're still all over the charts with how much they're eating as you do 12oz a day feedings and some have leftovers either a lot or a bit and some don't even have.
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grimtas
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Post by grimtas on Mar 13, 2017 14:16:50 GMT -5
The leftovers I do a smell test if I think it smells off I toss it, if it smells OK I re-feed. If the bone-in turns too much to jerky I toss it, the organs I generally will toss(They are relatively cheap) and give them what I tossed fresh in the next meal to make sure they are getting what they need despite their stubbornness. I'm going to keep to the 12Oz per feeding for the next couple of weeks I think to make sure they are all getting plenty to eat. As spring has sprung and the excitement of not being on kibble for the last 3 weeks or so I think they are starting to settle down on what they are actually consuming. The week over week the last two weeks did not show much of any weight gain/loss in any of them so I think we are doing OK so far. I'm monitoring their weight weekly if anything drastically changes that will be an alert to any major issues of any one of them not eating properly. Monitoring their poops as well is educating me on what they need vs what's actually on the menu so I'm keeping a close eye there as well.
I know it's wasteful at the moment but I need to figure out what they need as well. The menu will be fine tuned to their intake over time to better reduce some of the waste.
A couple things I've learned about the different proteins this past week: Rabbit - They will eat it but not a favorite Chicken - They will eat it when nothing else is avail Quail - They go nuts over the stuff, absolutely love it Frog Legs - Kind of a favorite, not as much as the quail but more then the chicken wings Lamb - Hit/Miss Chicken Gizzards (Rough chop)- They ate this without too much turmoil Beef Tongue - Not Keen but will eat it with my persistence Chicken Liver (Puree) - Not Keen, I need to mix it with their normal soup Chicken Hearts (Fine Chop) - Not Keen, I need to mix it with their normal soup Pork Kidney (Fine slices) - Not Keen, I need to mix it with their normal soup Pork Hearts - Haven't tried this yet Duck - Haven't tried this yet Beef - Not Keen Pork - Havoc and Scamp will eat it Mischief and Mayhem will not Pork Uterus - Haven't tried this yet
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