Post by katt on Apr 26, 2017 20:45:31 GMT -5
Yes, I'm leaving they're food out all the time atm. Although we entering summer now so I'll start picking it up between meals when I'm home soon.
Why? Personally I would just leave it available all the time - ESPECIALLY with an insu fuzz. Meat is good for them a LOT longer than you think. Typically food is good for:
Soup: 8-10hrs
Grinds: 10-12hrs
Chunks and bone-in meats: 12-24hrs
Whole prey: 24-48hrs
Keep in mind that in the wild they catch their prey OR stumble across some carrion (which has been out who knows how long), drag their prize through the wilds (dirt, moldy leaves, other animal feces/urine, etc) and into their burrows where they urinate/defecate on it to discourage other animals from stealing it, then leave it stashed for a varied amount of time. Ferrets are VERY well equipped to handle the bacteria content of raw meats. They have extremely acidic stomach acid that kills most things, and then they have an extremely short digestive tract which allows food to pass through quickly, preventing any remaining bacteria from having enough time to latch on and reproduce to cause infection. Raw meat is what they are biologically built to thrive off of.
Also, much like how YOU know not to eat that weird smelling leftover casserole in the fridge, they typically know when meat has become too spoiled for them to handle and will not eat it.
Ellie is on pred, .1mg a day I think (I'll check when I get home) it's quarter of a tablet anyway. It's good to hear it can affect her coat, i won't worry as much about that now. When I took her in to the vet he said all her nodes were inflamed. The ones on her neck do feel like fatty lumps, I have no idea what swollen lymphnodes feel like but these are around the size of a penny and squishy. I really hope it's fat. She's always been a petite lady & now she's quite chunky. She looks a little like a pit bellied pig lol fingers crossed it's fat.
If your vet said her LN were inflamed that is probably what they are. It sure would be nice if it turns out to just be fat though. And the pot-bellied look is very likely due to the pred - look up Cushings Syndrome. Iatrogenic (medically caused) Cushings Syndrome is what occurs as a side effect of taking chronic gluococorticoids (pred).
The coarse hair may not be due *directly* to the pred, but pred can cause hair/fur thinning, and skin atrophy (which contributes to easy bruising, increased stretch marks, weak skin, etc). Additionally, any sort of illness can affect fur/hair condition - while you are doing an excellent job of keeping her medical conditions well treated, we know Ellie isn't in prime health. With all of that in the big picture, I am not overly concerned or surprised about her fur being more coarse. Individual genetics can have a lot to do with hair texture too. As long as she is on an appropriately balanced diet, and her medical conditions are all being well monitored, and she isn't showing any other new or concerning symptoms, I wouldn't stress over her fur. A little salmon oil supplement certainly won't hurt (and might help a little) though. As will proper hydration, which she is getting on raw.
The only bloodwork Ellie has had is for bg. We were going to send away a blood sample but her bg was so low we were convinced we found the cause.
If she hasn't shown symptoms of anything other than her insu, I normally wouldn't worry too much. But with her swollen LN, it may be worth looking further. Big concerns would be of course, infection or cancer (esp lymphoma in these guys). It would be worth at least asking your vet what he thinks about a blood panel and X-Ray if she isn't getting better and you can afford it. I would see what your vet thinks, and take it from there.
Jasper also hasn't had many tests, we've not long found a decent test. In July last year he had a tummy scan when he was sick with his tummy bug. I don't remember what the results were but there was nothing diagnostic in them. I still plan on having everyone implanted I'm going to talk to my vet at out appointment about it. I think I'd also like to put him on a dose of pred for a week or 2 to see if he improves with that. I'd rather not go down the route of anethetising him at the moment because he still seems quite weak. It's interesting to hear about go problems being linked to adrenal.
Pred can help to break the cycle if he has a lot of inflammation, esp if IBD is at all suspected. Did he ever go on a run of antibiotics when his "tummy bug" was diagnosed? The usual trifecta (called "triple therapy") for most GI bugs in ferrets (that are suspected to be bacterial or have secondary bacterial overgrowth) is amoxicillin, metronidazole (flagyl), and carafate for at least 14 days - sometimes longer. That is typically the treatment for H. pylori also - though it can be difficult to eradicate and may require longer treatment.
When you ask if he's been tested for 'H. pylori' I've not heard of that, what is It?
You mentioned they think he might be a carrier for H. pylori so I was just curious if they decided that clinically or tested him. I'd be pretty surprised if he had been tested though bc usually it requires a biopsy - at least in humans. I'm not aware of any blood or fecal test for it. It is a very common bug in ferrets though, especially mill ferrets. My vet has a theory (and I have to say I agree with her) that MANY ferrets who are labeled as "IBD" probably actually have a form of recurrent gastritis caused by a chronic infection with H. pylori, that gets better when treated with antibiotics as the bacteria population is knocked down a notch. Then the immune system can keep it in check for a little while, until some sort of stress occurs (illness, stress, changes at home, new food - you name it, they are ferrets after all lol) and the H. pylori overgrows again.
I'm not sure of the heart content in nutriment, I'll find out. I know they also do beef, turkey & probably lamb. I've got some beef in the freezer but I want them to be eating reliably before I make any more changes. 2 days a week I'm out the house for 7 hours so those days have been a major concern for me. I'll sleep better at night when I know they'll eat during the day.
I agree completely on making sure they will eat before making any new changes. I just wanted to have a general idea of what you had available.
Jasper also ate his breakfast, the ferrets practically qued up at the bowl this morning! I'll continue putting a little salmon oil in for a few more meals & I'll watch out for poops. He was quicker to get up this morning so I'm wondering if some of his lethargy was due to not eating enough.
Woooot! (dance) Keep it up! It sounds like he is catching on.
****
Could you tell me what the qualifications mentors need please so when I discuss this with my vet he knows your qualified. I think they see too many google warriors who don't really know what they're talking about.
We don't have specific requirements for mentors to enter the mentor training program per se, so much as we look for individuals who are quick to learn, do careful research, have a really good grasp on the diet requirements, and active members on the forum, are generally polite and helpful, and seem like they would fit in well with the team. Once we accept a mentor into our training program though, we do extensive work on training them. Before any mentor starts their first switch, their own ferrets must be on a properly balanced raw diet, and they must read a long list of "homework" assignments. The "homework" consists of a list of various resources on ferrets and raw feeding. We understand that different sources are of different quality, so we select quite a few different resources to ensure they have a broad understanding before they ever start their first switch. Then they must complete their first switch as a mentor teamed up with a senior mentor who has been mentoring for a while (and has completed the training program). They must also complete several mandatory assignments including familiarizing themselves with all of the information on our website (http://holisticferretforum.com/), completing at least one "difficult switch" (either a very large group, or working with ferrets with significant medical problems - preferably one of each type of switch). They must also be actively mentoring as a mentor-in-training ("MIT") for a minimum of one year, and must complete a certain number of switches from start to finish. All of the MITs are mentored themselves by our experienced admin throughout the training process.
Our diet framework is designed to roughly mimic the balance that they would get in the wild eating whole prey items with some carrion. It is based of off decades of raw feeding experience from the wider raw feeding community (which has involved a lot of trial and error), and hundreds upon thousands of collective hours of research, including published peer reviewed journal articles (whenever possible, funding for research on raw diets is limited, meaning we take what data we can, but we are ALWAYS searching for more, newer, and better data) on polecat, ferret, and feline dietary, developmental, and metabolic needs, as well as health problems. Other resources that have been used to compile data over the years include several veterinary texts that various admin have been able to access (Ferrets, Rabbits, And Rodents - Clinical Medicine and Surgery 3e.; Ferret Husbandry and Medicine 2e., and more), publications by Bob Church and Dr. Cathy Johnson-Delaney, etc etc. We always strive to keep an open mind to new incoming data that might change how we think about any given issue, and we very frequently adjust our recommendations when we do encounter better information, in order to keep as up to date and as accurate as possible. We are often somewhat hampered by the fact that unfortunately, research on raw diet is limited, and we are battling against the pet-world version of BigPharma - aka the kibble industry. But we are constantly on the lookout for more, better info.
The same goes for all of our discussions on ferret health issues. We spend a LOT of time researching ferret health, available treatments, etc, in addition to having the benefit of having access to a HUGE online ferret community with a vast abundance of anecdotal experiences. On our admin and mentoring team alone, we *collectively* have well over a hundred years' worth of ferret experience, with well over 100 ferrets. For example, Heather alone has over 40 years' experience in rescuing ferrets with significant medical issues, and feeding raw diets to cats, dogs, and ferrets, as well as in the last several years building up her own ferretry working under a mentor for breeding.
To give you my own "credentials" for whatever they are worth lol.... I have my Bachelor of Science degree in Biology, and I am a 4th year medical student (for humans, not animals lol) - I will be graduating in 30 days, at which point I will officially be a doctor. However, I will then still be in training within my specialty (Family Medicine) for another 3 years - so a doctor, but not yet fully licensed to practice independently for a few more years. I thus have a strong background in science, and extensive (and ever continuing!) education and training in physiology, disease processes, and medicine in general. I am NOT a vet, and I will always refer to a vet to get appropriate care and treatment (as will ALL of our mentors). My training in human medicine does not make me an expert on animal medicine by ANY means. BUT a LOT of the basic physiology and disease processes still cross-apply. I also worked in a vet clinic for a year - I was only the receptionist, but given I had a strong interest in medicine and in exotic animal healthcare, I paid close attention to the goings-on about the clinic and spent a lot of time chatting with the vets about various cases, which was a great learning experience. I have also, thanks to moving a lot for school and my boys' health issues, worked with several different vets with my boys' issues, and spent extensive time talking with each vet, taking note of each vet's different perspectives on various issues. Additionally, I have spent the past 7.5 years extensively researching/reading about ferrets, their health problems, and their dietary needs. I am fortunate to have incredible university access to online scientific and medical journals and I regularly scrounge for new published articles. I have a huge stockpile of articles I have read and saved over the years. I also spend a lot of time silently "google warrior-ing" so to speak to read what is out there on the internet to stay on top of what is out there in terms of what other groups are recommending (for the better or worse), if any new data/info is starting to circulate, what resources are out there (good and bad), etc as WELL as to collect as much anecdotal experience as possible to add to the Big-Picture.
Why? Personally I would just leave it available all the time - ESPECIALLY with an insu fuzz. Meat is good for them a LOT longer than you think. Typically food is good for:
Soup: 8-10hrs
Grinds: 10-12hrs
Chunks and bone-in meats: 12-24hrs
Whole prey: 24-48hrs
Keep in mind that in the wild they catch their prey OR stumble across some carrion (which has been out who knows how long), drag their prize through the wilds (dirt, moldy leaves, other animal feces/urine, etc) and into their burrows where they urinate/defecate on it to discourage other animals from stealing it, then leave it stashed for a varied amount of time. Ferrets are VERY well equipped to handle the bacteria content of raw meats. They have extremely acidic stomach acid that kills most things, and then they have an extremely short digestive tract which allows food to pass through quickly, preventing any remaining bacteria from having enough time to latch on and reproduce to cause infection. Raw meat is what they are biologically built to thrive off of.
Also, much like how YOU know not to eat that weird smelling leftover casserole in the fridge, they typically know when meat has become too spoiled for them to handle and will not eat it.
Ellie is on pred, .1mg a day I think (I'll check when I get home) it's quarter of a tablet anyway. It's good to hear it can affect her coat, i won't worry as much about that now. When I took her in to the vet he said all her nodes were inflamed. The ones on her neck do feel like fatty lumps, I have no idea what swollen lymphnodes feel like but these are around the size of a penny and squishy. I really hope it's fat. She's always been a petite lady & now she's quite chunky. She looks a little like a pit bellied pig lol fingers crossed it's fat.
If your vet said her LN were inflamed that is probably what they are. It sure would be nice if it turns out to just be fat though. And the pot-bellied look is very likely due to the pred - look up Cushings Syndrome. Iatrogenic (medically caused) Cushings Syndrome is what occurs as a side effect of taking chronic gluococorticoids (pred).
The coarse hair may not be due *directly* to the pred, but pred can cause hair/fur thinning, and skin atrophy (which contributes to easy bruising, increased stretch marks, weak skin, etc). Additionally, any sort of illness can affect fur/hair condition - while you are doing an excellent job of keeping her medical conditions well treated, we know Ellie isn't in prime health. With all of that in the big picture, I am not overly concerned or surprised about her fur being more coarse. Individual genetics can have a lot to do with hair texture too. As long as she is on an appropriately balanced diet, and her medical conditions are all being well monitored, and she isn't showing any other new or concerning symptoms, I wouldn't stress over her fur. A little salmon oil supplement certainly won't hurt (and might help a little) though. As will proper hydration, which she is getting on raw.
The only bloodwork Ellie has had is for bg. We were going to send away a blood sample but her bg was so low we were convinced we found the cause.
If she hasn't shown symptoms of anything other than her insu, I normally wouldn't worry too much. But with her swollen LN, it may be worth looking further. Big concerns would be of course, infection or cancer (esp lymphoma in these guys). It would be worth at least asking your vet what he thinks about a blood panel and X-Ray if she isn't getting better and you can afford it. I would see what your vet thinks, and take it from there.
Jasper also hasn't had many tests, we've not long found a decent test. In July last year he had a tummy scan when he was sick with his tummy bug. I don't remember what the results were but there was nothing diagnostic in them. I still plan on having everyone implanted I'm going to talk to my vet at out appointment about it. I think I'd also like to put him on a dose of pred for a week or 2 to see if he improves with that. I'd rather not go down the route of anethetising him at the moment because he still seems quite weak. It's interesting to hear about go problems being linked to adrenal.
Pred can help to break the cycle if he has a lot of inflammation, esp if IBD is at all suspected. Did he ever go on a run of antibiotics when his "tummy bug" was diagnosed? The usual trifecta (called "triple therapy") for most GI bugs in ferrets (that are suspected to be bacterial or have secondary bacterial overgrowth) is amoxicillin, metronidazole (flagyl), and carafate for at least 14 days - sometimes longer. That is typically the treatment for H. pylori also - though it can be difficult to eradicate and may require longer treatment.
When you ask if he's been tested for 'H. pylori' I've not heard of that, what is It?
You mentioned they think he might be a carrier for H. pylori so I was just curious if they decided that clinically or tested him. I'd be pretty surprised if he had been tested though bc usually it requires a biopsy - at least in humans. I'm not aware of any blood or fecal test for it. It is a very common bug in ferrets though, especially mill ferrets. My vet has a theory (and I have to say I agree with her) that MANY ferrets who are labeled as "IBD" probably actually have a form of recurrent gastritis caused by a chronic infection with H. pylori, that gets better when treated with antibiotics as the bacteria population is knocked down a notch. Then the immune system can keep it in check for a little while, until some sort of stress occurs (illness, stress, changes at home, new food - you name it, they are ferrets after all lol) and the H. pylori overgrows again.
I'm not sure of the heart content in nutriment, I'll find out. I know they also do beef, turkey & probably lamb. I've got some beef in the freezer but I want them to be eating reliably before I make any more changes. 2 days a week I'm out the house for 7 hours so those days have been a major concern for me. I'll sleep better at night when I know they'll eat during the day.
I agree completely on making sure they will eat before making any new changes. I just wanted to have a general idea of what you had available.
Jasper also ate his breakfast, the ferrets practically qued up at the bowl this morning! I'll continue putting a little salmon oil in for a few more meals & I'll watch out for poops. He was quicker to get up this morning so I'm wondering if some of his lethargy was due to not eating enough.
Woooot! (dance) Keep it up! It sounds like he is catching on.
****
Could you tell me what the qualifications mentors need please so when I discuss this with my vet he knows your qualified. I think they see too many google warriors who don't really know what they're talking about.
We don't have specific requirements for mentors to enter the mentor training program per se, so much as we look for individuals who are quick to learn, do careful research, have a really good grasp on the diet requirements, and active members on the forum, are generally polite and helpful, and seem like they would fit in well with the team. Once we accept a mentor into our training program though, we do extensive work on training them. Before any mentor starts their first switch, their own ferrets must be on a properly balanced raw diet, and they must read a long list of "homework" assignments. The "homework" consists of a list of various resources on ferrets and raw feeding. We understand that different sources are of different quality, so we select quite a few different resources to ensure they have a broad understanding before they ever start their first switch. Then they must complete their first switch as a mentor teamed up with a senior mentor who has been mentoring for a while (and has completed the training program). They must also complete several mandatory assignments including familiarizing themselves with all of the information on our website (http://holisticferretforum.com/), completing at least one "difficult switch" (either a very large group, or working with ferrets with significant medical problems - preferably one of each type of switch). They must also be actively mentoring as a mentor-in-training ("MIT") for a minimum of one year, and must complete a certain number of switches from start to finish. All of the MITs are mentored themselves by our experienced admin throughout the training process.
Our diet framework is designed to roughly mimic the balance that they would get in the wild eating whole prey items with some carrion. It is based of off decades of raw feeding experience from the wider raw feeding community (which has involved a lot of trial and error), and hundreds upon thousands of collective hours of research, including published peer reviewed journal articles (whenever possible, funding for research on raw diets is limited, meaning we take what data we can, but we are ALWAYS searching for more, newer, and better data) on polecat, ferret, and feline dietary, developmental, and metabolic needs, as well as health problems. Other resources that have been used to compile data over the years include several veterinary texts that various admin have been able to access (Ferrets, Rabbits, And Rodents - Clinical Medicine and Surgery 3e.; Ferret Husbandry and Medicine 2e., and more), publications by Bob Church and Dr. Cathy Johnson-Delaney, etc etc. We always strive to keep an open mind to new incoming data that might change how we think about any given issue, and we very frequently adjust our recommendations when we do encounter better information, in order to keep as up to date and as accurate as possible. We are often somewhat hampered by the fact that unfortunately, research on raw diet is limited, and we are battling against the pet-world version of BigPharma - aka the kibble industry. But we are constantly on the lookout for more, better info.
The same goes for all of our discussions on ferret health issues. We spend a LOT of time researching ferret health, available treatments, etc, in addition to having the benefit of having access to a HUGE online ferret community with a vast abundance of anecdotal experiences. On our admin and mentoring team alone, we *collectively* have well over a hundred years' worth of ferret experience, with well over 100 ferrets. For example, Heather alone has over 40 years' experience in rescuing ferrets with significant medical issues, and feeding raw diets to cats, dogs, and ferrets, as well as in the last several years building up her own ferretry working under a mentor for breeding.
To give you my own "credentials" for whatever they are worth lol.... I have my Bachelor of Science degree in Biology, and I am a 4th year medical student (for humans, not animals lol) - I will be graduating in 30 days, at which point I will officially be a doctor. However, I will then still be in training within my specialty (Family Medicine) for another 3 years - so a doctor, but not yet fully licensed to practice independently for a few more years. I thus have a strong background in science, and extensive (and ever continuing!) education and training in physiology, disease processes, and medicine in general. I am NOT a vet, and I will always refer to a vet to get appropriate care and treatment (as will ALL of our mentors). My training in human medicine does not make me an expert on animal medicine by ANY means. BUT a LOT of the basic physiology and disease processes still cross-apply. I also worked in a vet clinic for a year - I was only the receptionist, but given I had a strong interest in medicine and in exotic animal healthcare, I paid close attention to the goings-on about the clinic and spent a lot of time chatting with the vets about various cases, which was a great learning experience. I have also, thanks to moving a lot for school and my boys' health issues, worked with several different vets with my boys' issues, and spent extensive time talking with each vet, taking note of each vet's different perspectives on various issues. Additionally, I have spent the past 7.5 years extensively researching/reading about ferrets, their health problems, and their dietary needs. I am fortunate to have incredible university access to online scientific and medical journals and I regularly scrounge for new published articles. I have a huge stockpile of articles I have read and saved over the years. I also spend a lot of time silently "google warrior-ing" so to speak to read what is out there on the internet to stay on top of what is out there in terms of what other groups are recommending (for the better or worse), if any new data/info is starting to circulate, what resources are out there (good and bad), etc as WELL as to collect as much anecdotal experience as possible to add to the Big-Picture.