|
Post by azaelia on Apr 7, 2017 13:35:31 GMT -5
ok, so our vet visit went well. Jasper does have an enlarged spleen but the lump on it has gone. i bet it'll be back tonight, it's always been there it's just typical it dissapears when i take him to a new vet. bg level is around 2.(something). the vet reviewed his records from the last place & said if he had lymphoma he certainly wouldn't looks a great as he does almost a year after diagnosis! he think it's probably heliobacter, that he's a carrier for it & thats why he has the odd flare up. he said they could investigate it but seeing as he has no symptoms of anything then maybe it's best just to monitor.
Ellie also went well, her bg level was similar to jaspers, both had been fasted for around 2.5 + hours. he suggested having her in to do a propper insulin test, something like fasting & testing, then testing again after eating. he also sugested we test her hormone levels as the fur on her tail is a little thin when it used to be so thik & lovely.
i understand what your saying about the implant. & i'll give it some consideration. i try to be as holistic as possible & messing with her hormones without an diagnosis doesn't sit too well with me. BUT if the test is hit & miss & i've also heard it can give false positives then i think it might be £180 wasted. I probably will go with the implant. i'd just like to do some research so i can make an informed desicion.
with regards to the low bg levels, i don't know. he seemed so knowledgable, he asked if anyone had an hormonal implant. he was happy they were raw fed. & i know i've said it about vets in the past (think back to the contagious lymphoma comment) but he seems good. so the fact thats he's not concerned about the bg levels & u guys are makes me wonder if somethings getting lost in translation?
ellie will definatly be tested for insulinoma. i'd like to get jasper the same test next week to as the practice is an hours drive away & any other week it means me booking time off work. i'll also (probably) get ellies implant done at the same time.
in other news Jasper was having some cage rage in the cat basket, when i wouldn't let him out into the waiting room full of dogs he turned around & pooped allllll over the bars! but HA he missed me! pmsl, atleast he doesn't have lymphoma! (he did stink the place out tho)
p.s is there anything that can be done for an enlarged spleen? or should i just monitor it?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 9:43:20 GMT -5
The test for adrenal is pretty pricey and isn't very accurate. This is why many prefer to simply prevent rather seeking out a definite result. The price of the test could easily purchase the preventative treatment. I think what you're doing is great. Looking into it and researching before making a solid decision is very wise. That makes you a very responsible ferret owner. ^^ In regards to the BG. You mentioned they had results under 3 The reading was pretty low. I would be concerned even if the vet was nice about it. "The reference range for resting blood glucose concentration in ferrets is 94–207 mg/dL (approx 5.22 - 11.5 mmol/L) and normal fasting blood glucose levels are 90–125 mg/dL (approx 5.0 - 7.0 mmol/L). Insulin levels can be run concurrently but will only be diagnostic if the patient is hypoglycemic at the time of sampling. If serum glucose levels are normal and a high clinical suspicion for insulinoma exists, a controlled fast can be performed for no more than 4 hours to better establish hypoglycemia but is not recommended by the author. If a controlled fast is performed, it is best to fast the ferret in the hospital in case a hypoglycemic crisis occurs. Because ferrets have a rapid GI transit time (3–4 hours), a shorter fast than in dogs and cats is diagnostic. A 4-hour fasting glucose concentration less than 60 mg/dL (approx 3.3 mmol/L) is consistent with a pancreatic islet cell tumor in a ferret." G. Fox, James, and Robert P. Marini. Biology And Diseases Of The Ferret. 3rd ed. Wiley-Blackwell, 2014. Print. If the result was under 3 mmol/L in general then it is highly suspected to be insulinoma and is concerning, but it sounds like your vet is a good one especially considering the fact he is checking everything out. They don't have to verbally express concern over something, especially when they map out a treatment and management plan. This is all due to being a vet, they need to be professional with how they do everything without putting any unnecessary concern or stress on the owners of their patients. This would explain why your vet mentioned having them in for a controlled fast + re-test. ^^ This way they can monitor more easily and be prepared to give treatment in the chance they have hypoglycemic episodes. Has your vet talked about putting Jasper and Ellie on pred or adjusting their pred? He may not until he re-tests, but it would be good to note and ask next time your in just to make sure everything is good in that area. Usually even borderline insulinoma should be put on pred at a lower dose. I'm also super glad to hear about the lymphoma part. Lymphoma is such a nasty nasty illness, actually so is insulinoma and adrenal disease, they're all quite nasty in general. Enlarged spleens are quite common in ferrets. A majority of the time they aren't something that should be of concern and are best to simply monitor. The spleen also tends to increase gradually and slightly in size with increasing age for ferrets. Conditions which would be serious enough to require removal of the spleen tend to be quite rare.
|
|
|
Post by katt on Apr 9, 2017 20:28:32 GMT -5
i understand what your saying about the implant. & i'll give it some consideration. i try to be as holistic as possible & messing with her hormones without an diagnosis doesn't sit too well with me. BUT if the test is hit & miss & i've also heard it can give false positives then i think it might be £180 wasted. I probably will go with the implant. i'd just like to do some research so i can make an informed desicion. The problem is, they have already messed with their hormones by neutering and spaying. The damage there is done - their hormones have already been messed with and now as a result, their little bodies are under unnatural hormonal control. The minute you alter a ferret, they lose the critical negative feedback that their testes and ovaries provide to the brain. The brain then sends unchecked signals to the adrenal glands forcing it to work in overdrive. Once they are altered, their adrenal glands are put under strain. Eventually this leads the glands to become diseased, leading to the symptoms of "adrenal disease." But whether or not the symptoms are there, in any altered ferret - the abnormal function is there. The Deslorelin implant is not messing with their hormones, it is trying to partially correct what has already been irreversibly messed with. If an altered ferret does not yet have the adrenal "disease," the implant will not harm them, and in fact will help to PREVENT the disease by controlling the abnormal hormonal signals that they ARE experiencing (just not yet to the point of showing symptoms). More and more experienced ferret owners and vets are realizing that Des should really be implanted as soon as a ferret is altered to help prevent adrenal disease. If an altered ferret is showing symptoms of the disease, the safest thing to do is to implant them. If they do have adrenal disease, then the implant is the best treatment that we have and can drastically improve their quality and length of life. Meanwhile the adrenal test (sometimes called the "Tennessee Panel") is very expensive and has an extremely high rate of false negatives. Meaning that all too often the test comes back and says no adrenal disease is present when it IS present - the test just missed it. IF the test is positive, you know you are dealing with adrenal. If the test is negative, there is still a very strong chance you are still dealing with adrenal. Meanwhile you think you are in the clear bc the test is negative, and the adrenal ferret continues on without appropriate treatment, allowing the disease to rage on unchecked, worsening and worsening until it is even more difficult to treat. I am all about minimizing unnecessary medications and treatments. In many cases less is more. But some things require treatment. And in the case of adrenal we have already interfered with nature and put their poor little bodies in an extremely unnatural and physiologically stressful state. Yes, altering is often necessary and unavoidable (better to alter than have unchecked irresponsible breeding, or jills dying of anemia etc), but we cannot deny that altering them damages their delicate hormonal systems. Des is the best tool that we have to try to help mitigate the damage and imbalance we humans created when we decided to alter them. It can make a world of difference in their health and well-being. <3 If you want to see the physiology of it better I would recommend reading this: holisticferretforum.com/health/adrenal-disease/
|
|
|
Post by azaelia on Apr 10, 2017 5:42:52 GMT -5
Thanks guys, so should I just implant all 3 of my guys?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2017 5:57:23 GMT -5
I believe implanting everyone would be a wise decision for a preventive. If you can afford to do so and wish to do so, then go for it. ^^
|
|
|
Post by azaelia on Apr 10, 2017 18:19:47 GMT -5
Thanks, I'll get them all done. Maybe one a month, but they'll get done. I've called the vet to book Ellie n Jasper in for this all day insulin test. It's more than a month away as the vet is an hour away so it means booking a day off work, my workplace needs more than a months notice for hols. Gives them chance to get the implants in anyway. Not done well this weekend. I've had my 18 year old cat to stay for the weekend while my parents house hunt. She, the ferrets & the dog all need to be kept seperate! It's not been easy lol. But this happened - She's a house cat and never eaten anything raw! She just got stuck into that meat!! I'm hoping to keep her when mum & dad move away, then that'll b the norm for her. Anyway no ones had any slither since Friday as I just haven't had the time. I did get them salmon food rather than the chicken. If it's possible I hate it more than they do! It stinks, they don't really like it. I'm not getting it again. Gonna get them beef tomorrow. Got some beef & pork infront of me ( well I did but Frank's stashed them) I'm going to cut them into slithers & freeze them tonight. I'll probably give them all the pork, then all the beef rather than mixing it up. I'm behind again on the weights - sorry. I'll get it done tomorrow. Off to find all that meat. . .
|
|
|
Post by katt on Apr 11, 2017 0:24:34 GMT -5
What a beautiful kitty. If I would rewind and implant my boys preventively I would have. Granted, Des wasn't widely available when I first got them. If I ever have surgically castrated ferrets again, I will be imlpanting them. The implant for PREVENTION is done yearly. The implant for TREATING adrenal disease typically needs to be done every 6-9 mo (usually 6, esp later in the disease) or you will see breakthrough symptoms - signs that the disease is not adequately controlled. These 2 different routines get confused very often. Annual to prevent, bi-annual to treat. Some vets haven't caught on yet and don't like implanting preventively, so talk with your vet and see if he is willing to do it. Hopefully he is...
|
|
|
Post by azaelia on Apr 11, 2017 19:29:21 GMT -5
Put them to bed with pork cheek (I think it was pork) slithers & the fish ground raw with slithers mixed In. Frank loves the slithers! I think I'm at the point of no return with him, we had a tug of war last night with a cheek. Ellie's not really interested in the slithers but has eaten the fish & had a few of the slithers that r hidden in the mince. Jasper is quite violently refusing all food! He wiggled like his life depends on it then runs away. He gagged a little while ago, I wonder if his tummy upset is coming back? The vet said it's helicobacter. From what I've read about it stress can trigger it & he was terrified of the cat over the weekend. Also the dogs been barking a lot the past 2 days as we've had a few people at The door. He doesn't show stress when the dog barks like Frank does but I know he's afraid of the dog. Also pre existing health problems like insulinoma can set it off. If I have to take him to the vet tomorrow, I'm going to take him to yet another new vet as I've found out the practice I used to go to a few years back has had a small animals expert come to work for them & in the news letter it talked about her operating on a ferrets teeth. I thought I'd check her out. She's only 10 mins away, I could do with a vet for emergencies that isn't an hour away like my new one. If he has to go I'll have another bg reading & probably put him on pred untill I can get this test done next month. I'm reluctant as I truly hate steroids but it needs doing I think.
I hope that makes sense, I'm on my phone & auto correct hates me lol
That little ferret is going to be the death of me!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2017 22:49:34 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by azaelia on Apr 13, 2017 16:11:24 GMT -5
Hey machan, I pm' d u because when I went to Facebook for a quick answer you said I should pm you. So I did It was a false alarm with Jasper, he seems ok. The store did have the food in stock I've put them on chicken again & they're all eating now. They've not had slithers for a few days as to be honest I keep forgetting to get them out of the freezer. This holiday is making my so lazy lol. I'll give them pork cheek mixed into the comercial raw for the next few days & then i have some beef slithers for them. I also have some beef commercial raw for them to try. I did get heart, liver & kidney for them. I'll cut it into slithers & freeze it. Should I save the organ meat until I ditch the commercial? I think it'll unbalance their diet won't it? Hopefully I'm not too far away from making the jump to slithers - Frank LOVES them!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2017 5:34:43 GMT -5
OH, I meant PM on Facebook to let us know if we should jump on the forum and check the thread. I should have clarified that, sorry about that! It's more that you would need to be careful with liver. Liver contains Vitamin A, which is fat soluble and in excessive amounts may cause toxicity. You can try the heart in slivers if you want. Those are fed as a muscle rather than an organ and should be fine. ^^
|
|
|
Post by azaelia on Apr 14, 2017 17:32:04 GMT -5
So I've spat my dummy out! No one is eating by themselves. Ellie n Frank will eat out of the bowl only if I put them in front of it. Jasper will.not.eat. he fights me every step of the way. He's been lethargic all day. He's struggled to stand & to walk. Ive got a few mouth fulls in him every hour of today. Im shattered.
I'm going to try to get him to the vets tomorrow, any vet, even if I haven't been there before & stamp my feet & argue & refuse to leave until they put him on pred! He obviously has a problem & I'm not going to stand for my vet fobbing me off any longer! I'm also going to see if I can stretch the finances to get a home by monitor too. (It's only a week till payday, things r getting pretty tight lol)
I'm so glad I'm doing this mentoring program. I'd have gone back to kibble by now!
Off to do some yoga until I calm down, I may be on my mat for some time...
Also - I've read that insulinoma & also helicobacter can cause ulcers, if that's the reason he's not eating is there anything that can soothe it? I have some metacam that was prescribed to Jasper nearly a year ago, would it have expired by now?
|
|
|
Post by azaelia on Apr 16, 2017 17:46:43 GMT -5
So the vet visit went better than expected at the time Jasper had hardly eaten in days. He was having my be a mouthful or 2 every hour. His bg was 4. Thats considerably better than what i expected! So I haven't got any steroids at this time for him. He is on antibiotics though. He's feeling much better! He's starting to eat without fighting again. Although out vet (the crappy 1, he's the only 1 we could see) is very concerned about how much weight he's lost, I'll get 2 that in a sec.
Ellie still isn't eating by herself, shell eat from the bowl but only with encouragement. I've been feeding her every 2 hours for the past 2 or 3 days.
Frank's doing ok. He's just starting to eat from the bowl by himself.
So now the weights...
1. Ferret's name: Jasper 2. Ferret's weight: 760g (-117g in 2 weeks) 3. Ferret has eaten "X" amount on average per meal: hardly anything for around 4 days. Getting better every day though 4. Stools on various proteins: despite his illness his poops are normal, usually they go really black & mucousey 5. Activity levels: not active at all, he's been very ill 6. Weekly menu: nutriment chicken ground raw
1. Ferret's name: ellie 2. Ferret's weight: 691g (-29g) 3. Ferret has eaten "X" amount on average per meal: she's briefly stopped eating. I think it was going from chicken to salmon food. She's getting better at eating again. The food is watered down to a loose porridge consistency 4. Stools on various proteins: poops are looking good 5. Activity levels: decreased 6. Weekly menu: nutriment chicken ground
1. Ferret's name: frank 2. Ferret's weight: 1.15kg (+15g) 3. Ferret has eaten "X" amount on average per meal: Frank's also stopped eating, he's started eating by himself out the bowl again today. 4. Stools on various proteins: poops are looking good 5. Activity levels: normal 6. Weekly menu: nutriment chicken ground
I'm having issues with photobucket again, I'll post the pics when I can
|
|
|
Post by katt on Apr 17, 2017 22:50:57 GMT -5
Yaaay! I am glad to hear that Jasper is doing so well! RE Jasper's dark poops: remind me - did he ever get on pred? If so, is he taking any carafate or pepcid in addition? Your goal is to move toward Frankenprey (meat, organs, and bones instead of commercial grinds), correct? How are the slivers going this week?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2017 23:37:12 GMT -5
I'm currently having some technical issues at the moment between my mobile and internet. I will try my best to get online but at the moment it doesn't seem to be in my favour. I do hope my spotty appearance isn't an inconvenience. Working on getting my modem and phone fixed up. Hopefully it should be done within the week. ;n;
|
|