I'm going to attempt this on the bf's phone cause mine may or may not come in til Monday.
You have run out of heart, how much taurine supplement should your ferrets get? (be specific) I believe the recommended dose is 500mg, or 1/2g, per day. Taurine supplement is a synthetic version and is not ideal for long term use.
How can you tell if your ferret is getting too much or too little bone? 😜 Look at da poops! Generally they should be formed and moist, if not dark and gooey (organs). Dry, hard or chalky stools means too much bone, constipation can be the result. Very loose or watery stools are a sign of too little bone, a prolapse anus can be the result.
What counts as a "different protein source?" Anything other than chicken (cgh also), rabbit or.... I forget.
Organs should consist of approximately how much liver, and how much "other" organ? 5% of each although I did read that, in the event another organ is unable to be obtained, 10% liver is ok for short term.
Is it a good idea to mix muscle meat, bone in and organs all in one meal. Explain why Not unless it's in balanced grinds as ferrets can have favorites and may choose to not eat a particular bit. This is particularly essential when you have multiple ferrets.
Short and sweet this time. Working on an unfamiliar phone without all my bells and whistles stinks. I was going to post our rundown for the week tomorrow but....it's on my phone 😢 I've started a handwritten journalish type thing for now.
In other news, I've withdrawn the hand ✋ And replaced it with a spoon 😜 Moxie has gone almost all day without eating however, once I hold the spoon for her to actually *try* what I'm offering, she comes to the plate to eat. She is eating the majority of her meal by herself. She's even started 'asking' for food when I'm prepping meals (constantly bobbing her head at me to show her what I'm doing). As of yet, both of them are unimpressed with the whole slivers I offer, even from my hand. Usually I can mix a few pieces into the chopped mess and they'll get eaten once they get going. Too big and they get left to the side.
Post by Aftershock on Jan 30, 2017 12:57:11 GMT -5
1. Great job! Keep in mind that the 500mg should be halved and given twice a day for best results. 2. ^-^ yesssssss. 3. Different protein sources are animals that are genetically different from each other. So CGH in the US still counts as chicken (since it's just a juvenile chicken ), but other fowl like duck, quail, turkey, or goose are all different proteins. 4. Correct! *high five* 5. Also correct!
Keep it up! Remember Moxie kept trying to avoid the bone in pieces, but with time, began to eat them! You are doing great!
What with the drama over losing my phone, I forgot to do the weekly menu and weights. Would you still like them or can I start again on Sunday? I've been using last week's menu but changing it up a little.
Moxie still avoids bone pieces, and doesn't want to put much effort into the quail parts. She has started to figure out chewing when she encounters one in the mash, though. She's just very stubborn. Tomorrow I will probably attempt to get her and Bella to chew on a piece of chicken neck instead of just chopping and mixing it in.
because you've been so awesome, you can start again on Sunday and just update me next week. Let's up the piece size and make those floofs work for some food! how big are the slivers you are giving now?
This morning's Quail. I started with wings, spine and legs. Bella ate a wing, half the spine but had no real interest in the leg. There's a bit of meat on there and I think it trips her up. If there's mostly bone, she chomps right down. But squishy meat stumps her. I initially cut the quail into 1/2 in pieces, she went to stash them but not eat them. I chopped it a bit finer (this photo) and even though she did eat some, she didn't gorge herself. I'm hoping a few more days of this and she'll get the picture.
Moxie is stubborn as always. I chopped an oz very fine for her and she ate maybe 10g. I fed her on a different plate in the upper part of the cage cause Bella pushes her out of the way to get to the spoon 😂😂 Mox ate for about 30 sec. I'll take it for now. I weighed the plate before I left so I could tell if either of them ate. Tonight's meal is chicken thigh (boneless) and ground beef. I'll keep the slivers of chicken a little on the larger size.
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE! Go Moxie, GOOOO! I would vote that if she takes those same pieces great this morning too, that you can up the size again! You and her have done such a great job!!!!!!!! I'm just SO proud of you! Bahahahahahahahaha, Bella, 'Moooooom, sthappppppp, just let me stash it!'
Food Log for 1/29 - 2/4..... Next up, weekly weights 😜
* First 2 days based on memory and notes *1/29 AM - Meh. Forgot to write it down. PM - Organs (chick liver, pork kidney, chick heart) 45g Bella, 71g Moxie
*1/30 AM - Quail. Moxie ate maybe 10g, chewed half a wing. Bella ate a wing, part of a leg, some spine AND 50g chopped.
PM - Chicken thigh & Ground Beef (no bone) Bella ate 83g, Moxie ate 18g, Moxie really needed encouragement tonight but, once she got going, she ate by herself.
1/31 am - Chicken thigh (boneless) based on another slightly mucous poop this morning, I've left out the bones. Start: 438g End: 357g Combined: 81g eaten. Moxie was just as interested in breakfast as Bella was. She ate at least an oz with little encouragement. Bella wasn't as impressed as normal but did consume a fair amount. Looking at her poop again, though there is a bit of mucous, it was an ok size. Will monitor today.
Both Bella and Moxie came back to the plate within the hour and almost cleaned it up.
Poops cleared up. They are back to normal size with no stringy mucous. Bone in as normal tomorrow.
PM - Beef! I sliced up 30g of beef muscle, half into small slivers, half into bobby pin size pieces (cause they always swallow the slivers whole) and added 90g ground beef + 20g water (still won't eat if it's not 'moist'. I avoid making it soupy, though). Bella, of course, has been begging for 30 min already, dives right in! Yay! She likes warm beef! Not cold beef, though. She ate 43g in about 5 minutes. I did see a few slivers make it down as well as a couple bobby pins get chewed in half. I need to make an effort to do this with every meal. Moxie ate an hour or so later. She had a taste from the spoon, then ate from the plate without further prompting. She consumed 25g in 5 min 😄 When she came to a bobby pin size piece, she swallowed it whole! Even Bella chewed it in half before leaving the other half. Moxie straight up didn't even try to chew! 😂😂 If she poops a long, thin poo tomorrow, I'm taking a picture.
Both girls had a bath/water therapy tonight before dinner. Moxie's getting more comfortable in the water, she wasn't frozen this time. Bella is like a fish. She really seems to enjoy herself. I'm going to try and get her in the water 2 or 3 times a week, along with walking her more. She definitely doesn't like walking near as much. I usually pick her up and carry her a fair distance from the house because she usually turns and runs home. 😂😂 So I make her run home a couple times and we call it good.
2/1 AM - Chicken neck & thigh Neither were very interested. Moxie had a few bites and Bella finally ate 50g once I added a bit more water. Stubborn floofs.
2/2 AM - Quail, chopped, neither ate much of the parts. Bella ate a fair amount, Moxie had maybe 3 bites. I'm not weighing before and afters because I realized I'm focusing very hard on numbers and it's adding to my stress over Moxie. If she tries a few bites, I'm happy.
PM -Holy cow, see a previous post for the full detail AND video!
2/3 AM - Quail, Bella ate a wing and some leg. I'm having a hard time getting her to eat more of the leg. She really refuses to sink her teeth into meat. Moxie ate most of the wing but still hasn't finished off the last 'bite'. I tried silly-stringing the quail but they definitely didn't like it. I had the morning off so at around 12 I added whisked egg to it. They both ate a fair amount of egg and a few quail slices (nothing with bone made it into Moxie). No more was eaten by dinner.
PM - Organs (chick liver, heart, pork kidney) The bf did dinner as I had to work. He said Moxie was starving by dinner and went back to the plate three different times! There was 7.5 to 8 ozs served, next morning there was 1.5oz. She loves her organs (pudding)!
2/4 AM - Quail (again), I love this bird. It's bones are small and the size of the parts is just right for their mouths. Bella did better on the leg, she at least ate some of the meat. I've been preslicing the upper leg meat so she'd have something to bite on to. Meat and bone together confuse her but I'm hoping with getting them to tolerate larger pieces of meat, it'll come together. Moxie ate 3/4 wing and maybe 3 bites of the smaller slivers of meat. I didn't try handfeeding her. It seems she really needs to run around a bit before she'll contemplate food. And I better have it ready when she's looking or she'll go to bed 😐 Tomorrow I'm going to try to offer a part to her every time she wakes up.
PM - 1oz ground Turkey, 1.5 Beef tongue, 1.5 Chicken thigh, a few proteins at once and it seemed to confuse Moxie 😂 The tongue and thigh were stringed, some slightly larger than others. Bella ate a little right off, Moxie dipped. An hour or so later, after a nap, Moxie finally tried a bit, though I had to spoon feed her some of the turkey to get her to start licking. She ate at least a oz of strings while trying to pick up turkey. She finally swallowed one of the thicker ones, it looked like it might have been rather uncomfortable, and she wasn't keen on continuing to eat.
1. Ferret's name: Moxie 2. Ferret's weight: 930 ⬇ 3. Ferret has eaten "X" amount on average per meal: 1/2 - 2oz (organs) 4. Stools on various proteins: still dark, like her fur dark. Mostly blobbish, has shape but not soft serve swirled. 5. Activity levels: Excellent. She's a go getter. Still shows us where our flaws are in ferret proofing. 6. Weekly Menu: Same as Bella
1. Ferret's name: Bella 2. Ferret's weight: 1590 ⬆ 3. Ferret has eaten "X" amount on average per meal: 2 - 3oz per meal 4. Stools on various proteins: Pretty good. Hers are usually more varied in color. Sometimes formed. 5. Activity levels: OK. She doesn't go-go-go but she gets up and plays with Moxie. She's awake more than Moxie, just doesn't play like her. 6. Weekly Menu
Sat AM - Chicken neck & thigh 3:1 PM - Chicken thigh & Pork (ground) 3:1
Sun AM - Quail PM - 4oz chicken heart, 2oz liver (chicken), 2oz sweetbreads (pork)
I am not 100% sure about the ground pork. It came from the Asian store and doesn't have a notice about the saline solution and it was very dry. I will offer some alone first and if they refuse, I guess I'll see if the cat will eat it. 😕
I have brains I'd like to try as an organ. I have to defrost and portion them but I've read elsewhere that because they are rich they should be used sparingly. Should I try them at 2ozs once a week or cut it with some kidney?
Keep it up! You are doing great! Just remember, Moxie can and will eat on her own. Ferrets get their days where they are just off and don't eat as much, and they also don't eat as much of their least favorites. It's when that one off day turns into two that it becomes a worry. With how observant you are with these girls, I'm not worried in the least of you catching something when it first rears its head. I am glad you were able to step back and be like 'I shouldn't weigh things for the moment because it is giving me anxiety'. I felt the same when my three went from 6oz to 3oz. I was very much freaking out, but as long as they are active, drinking/eating, pooping, and look like a tube sock while dangling, I don't worry. You are SO close, to be honest, it is very important you push them right now. They may act like they don't care for the strings, but the important thing is that they are eating them. Keep pushing bigger meat sizes! Think of it like a snowball, we made the snowball, and now it has started down a hill on its own. You don't want to slow it down, right? Brain is a great addition, and you CAN do 1/2 brain, if they take to it well. Too much makes for nasty poops, but you could put it in your mix (So, 1/2 liver 1/4 kidney 1/4 brain) and it would be great! I would like to mention something that I didn't earlier; you CAN feed the 10% of organs as ONLY liver if other organs cannot be found, but it is BEST to feed as many other organs as possible. Also, what do you know of day old chicks? What about probiotics?
And I totally hear you about the bigger pieces. Moxie seems to have tried to backtrack a bit so far this week. She approaches the plate but then looks at me because she's looking for the spoon. I still use it to get a few licks in but I haven't been feeding her from it. Both of them seem to still prefer to try to swallow it instead of chew it in half. It has definitely slowed Bella down. They still balk at too big of pieces, will pick them up, deposit them in a corner, and come back to the plate. I wonder if it's because they have options? Should I try leaving only too big of pieces for a day and see if they figure it out? I'm afraid Moxie will choose starvation. She has lost weight and just seems so tiny now. I'll grab body shots tomorrow. She still looks tubeish but some of it is just fur. Bone in is still an issue. Aside from a little quail wing, she still tries to spit out bones in mush. Should I be concerned about her calcium intake? Ahh, the life of a raw feeding ferrent, the questions never cease 😂
I know that day old chicks make a great snack but shouldn't be relied upon as a main source of nutrition. That goes for any baby animal (aside from feeding in frankenprey form (ie lamb, veal, etc)) because they don't contain enough calcium or other nutrients.
Probiotics are beneficial gut bacteria. Out bodies naturally try to achieve balance and our stomach has both good and bad bacteria. Stress, antibiotics, improper diet or a change in diet can all wipe out beneficial bacteria which allows bad bacteria to proliferate. Adding probiotics with every meal can help "save space" for the naturally occurring good bacteria to regrow since bad bacteria tends to multiply quickly. I do not know if human probiotics have the same impact on animals, or if animal probiotics can be used across species. It's my understanding that our bodies contain different, if not differently proportioned, bacteria. There are also prebiotics, which, in humans, are undigestible carbohydrates that good bacteria feed on. It can help the naturally occurring good bacteria get a leg up. Since they are carbohydrates, even indigestable ones, I'm not sure they would benefit a carnivore. It does make me curious about their gut flora and what exactly feeds their good bacteria. 💩
Post by Aftershock on Feb 10, 2017 12:24:37 GMT -5
Hee hee, well thank you! You're pretty amazing yourself! Oooooooo, Moxie is definitely pushing her limits this is completely normal! Great job on not giving in! You may have to do this several times by the time we are done. (Ferrets are toddlers in fur coats, I swear!) I wouldn't worry too much on them placing the food in the corner, this seems to be the process yours specifically go through. (Oh! A new thing! I'm going to put it into a corner! *a week or two later* Oh! Look! Food!) They probably just need to get used to it. If you are super concerned about their calcium, you can sprinkle some bone meal on their bone in meals, but watch poops carefully! We don't want Bella to get stopped up again! As for Moxie dropping weight, please do not be concerned She has only dropped a tiny bit, and honestly, many females I know of are only around a pound. Remember, she's turning into a lean, keen, war dancing machine! Muscle is more compact looking vs fat. Great job on the day old chicks! I personally don't know how I feel about veal bones as it is still a baby animal, so you would think the nutrients would still be incomplete vs an adult cow. Like, Cornish Game Hen falls into this catagory in the US. CGH is a young chicken, which is why the bones are so flexible. It has been brought up that ferrets that are allergic to chicken and not CGH could be more of what the two were fed. Chickens are fed a certian feed until they become a specific age, and CGH seems to fall before that mature age rage where the feed is switched. Probiotics for ferrets; I personally think it is best to use live probiotics such as goat kefir (1-2 teaspoons) or plain greek yogurt. With ferrets, it can be needed if they are given antibiotics and have a hard time regaining that gut flora the antibiotics killed off.