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Post by Aftershock on Nov 13, 2016 0:40:41 GMT -5
I really wouldn't recommend mixing meals that much. That is very unbalanced, and much harder to calculate the balance in the long run. I would only recommend doing mixes with organs, muscle, and bone in a grind, as you can easily calculate the amounts for the week. I don't recommend mixing that many proteins at once in case the ferret becomes allergic (chicken allergies are very common and pop up out of nowhere) to one protein, then it is hard to narrow it down to one. Are you trying to set up a frankenprey menu, or thinking of going into wholeprey?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 0:47:10 GMT -5
Sounds like great progress for Shaman. I'm super happy to hear that he's eating full chunks now, I highly doubt he'll fall back to the soup with his current progress going so smoothly. I have a little concerns with the batches prepared in regards to balancing them throughout the week. It would also be wise to feed separate proteins rather than all in one meal. You mention that you aim to organise them more, that's good. For a little challenge, how about you create a menu and post it here. The menu can be based on what you have and feed currently or can be what you may wish to feed in the future. This will give the mentors a better understanding on where you are currently and if you need any help with balancing a menu.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 15:28:06 GMT -5
I don't really understand the concern with the balance of Shaman's meals to be honest. He is eating the appropriate prey model ratios of bone/muscle meat/liver/other excreting organs (as he has through this entire transition), instead of balancing it out through the course of a week I am balancing it on a daily level (which is then still balanced across the week, month, year, etc.). Maybe that wasn't clear, but everything is being weighed out and balanced as always. This is how I fed raw to my dogs during their transitions. We now have a weekly schedule for balancing muscle meat and RMBs, however I still feed my dogs daily portions of organs. Following a weekly schedule with one or two heavier "organ days" usually upsets their stomachs. Regardless, I do the math and apply the raw feeding ratios in any meal plan to ensure it is balanced. The ratios are still being fed regardless of whether the diet is balanced each individual day or across the week. It would technically be more convenient for ME to start freezing individual muscles meats, bone-in meats and organs by weight for a weekly menu rather than freezing things combined into balanced daily meals. This is why I am considering moving to a weekly menu once Shaman is a little more experienced with raw. But the next logical step in my opinion for Shaman from soup was adding small chunks of muscle meat, organs and RMBs and then working up to whole RMBs, whole organs and larger pieces of muscle meat. Right now that's exactly what we're doing. Shaman is doing very well on these balanced daily portions and his diarrhea has stopped. His feces looks good again and he is digesting bone with no problems. We have been on chicken since we started soup with no issues and the pork and beef kidney are also not causing any issues. We really haven't hit any speed bumps with Shaman's transition yet. When we do move to a weekly menu I will post it here. We will eventually be offering whole prey, however I intend to feed a mix of whole prey and prey model raw. Right now I could source about 5-6 different proteins for whole prey feeding, however I like the idea of offering both. That way if availability of whole prey ever changes, I can fall back on prey model (or what some people call frankenprey) without any difficulties. EDIT: Edited to add below - Here's a picture of Shaman's food (8 oz - about 2 days worth) so you can actually see what I'm feeding. If you weigh this out, it's 10% bone (calculated using a reference on the percentage bone of various things, in this case chicken necks and wings), 10% heart, 5% liver, 5% kidney, 70% muscle meat. And here's the only thing left of Shaman's earlier meal. Normally I've only been finding teeny tiny bone fragments but I think he got full midway through. Please excuse the messy nasty carpet!!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 19:10:51 GMT -5
A1 - As a backup, beef tongue and brain is considered high in taurine. A2 - Vitamin A is a necessary vitamin that aids in immune function, vision, growth and development. Liver is high in Vitamin A and should be fed as 5% of the diet. Vitamin A toxicity is possible in ferrets from feeding too much liver or supplementing too much Vitamin A. A3 - One reason ferrets benefit from having a variety of proteins is that each meat has a different nutritional content, offering different micronutrient (vitamins, minerals, etc.) profiles and a different protein:fat content. Wild ferrets consume a variety of prey species and offering a variety of proteins helps to mimic that natural diet.
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Post by katt on Nov 14, 2016 0:21:26 GMT -5
I think the concern mostly arises from people being used to working with the meal-based system of balancing AND groups of ferrets rather than single ferrets. If you have more than one ferret, meals should not be mixed (meaning organs, heart, muscle in one meal) because you cannot track who is eating what. One ferret might LOVE heart and gobble it all up before the others get their share, another might hate liver and sneakily pick around it so then you have one getting not enough, and the others getting too much. Obviously with a single ferret, you know exactly who is eating what so this isn't an issue. It Is something you should keep in mind if you ever add another ferret though. RE the balance, it sounds like you are doing fine with 10% heart, 5% liver, 5% other organs. I'm not sure what you are using to calculate the bone content of each meat type and would love to know more about that. It sounds like you've got a good handle on it - the BONE should be 10-15% of the total diet. Watching poops is really your best measure for this. If they are too soft, you need to up the bone, too dry and hard you need to decrease it. Keeping in mind also that raw fed poops are naturally more moist than kibble fed poops. I'm sure you know this from your dog though. Re feeding mixed proteins, that also is fine. The only thing to be aware of there is IF GI issues arise and IF you ever suspect a food sensitivity, you will need to separate the proteins out (and do a protein trial) to determine which protein(s) cause problems. Shaman is a cutie
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2016 0:26:38 GMT -5
Sorry about that @shaman. I was a bit confused because this style of raw feeding is new to me since I learnt according to a different menu set up. I went and got info from the other mentors but I do now understand what you mean. Technically it is balanced due to the appropriate ratios for the week, shaman may get more or less of something but from the ratios for the week it adds up fine. It wouldn't be completely balanced because of lack of proteins but you already mention you aim to add those in as you go. You also answered the quizzes very well. Balancing out whole prey and frankenprey can be quite simple. I feed both wholeprey and frankenprey. Good ones are rabbit, quail, rats/mice, etc. There's also the option for chickens or pigeon if you can source those. Have you found the document on balancing wholeprey with frankebprey? If not i can post the link.
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Post by Aftershock on Nov 14, 2016 0:43:45 GMT -5
High five on those questions Machan threw at you! My main concern is we honestly don't know much about you, and it's unnerving to hear a new member doing daily ratios. I feel much better knowing that you know the ratios and seeing that picture of the two days worth of food. I hope you can understand how scary it can look to us when we don't know anything about a new member and they are doing a more complicated way of feeding❤ That picture of Shaman was adorable, by the way!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2016 0:47:53 GMT -5
Balancing out whole prey and frankenprey can be quite simple. I feed both wholeprey and frankenprey. Good ones are rabbit, quail, rats/mice, etc. There's also the option for chickens or pigeon if you can source those. Have you found the document on balancing wholeprey with frankebprey? If not i can post the link. I would appreciate that link, I'm not sure if I've found that document before. Answering the taurine question made me curious about just how much taurine is in heart and the various other meats we feed. I found a lot of general information about taurine in raw diets and which meats have more taurine - all very general info, but no actual numbers on taurine content. Does anyone have a link to a relatively accurate document/study with this info? I'm mainly asking out of curiosity, I have a great local source of beef and chicken heart and many online sites I could buy organs from if needed. I already use Rodent Pro for my snake and have had great experience with the company - so that is a source I plan to use for whole prey adult mice, rats, chickens and quail (and they offer rabbits and guinea pigs, not sure those would be worth it for a single ferret). I can source various whole prey fish locally and online, and if I put feelers out I should be able to get some whole prey dove, pigeon or even squirrel. Last, that totally makes sense for households with multiple ferrets, and I'd never considered it as an issue! I have no plans to go from Shaman to a business so it's not a factor I'm personally going to worry about.
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Post by katt on Nov 14, 2016 1:07:20 GMT -5
It's right on the website: holisticferretforum.com/natural-diet/raw-diet-the-meat-of-the-site/balancing-frankenprey-with-alternative-meals/Here is one helpful article on taurine: www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmb/labs/aal/pdfs/spitze.pdf That article actually found beef tongue to have MORE taurine than beef heart (but comparable to chicken liver+heart) BUT the problem is, one article does not equate to enough data for solid proof of something. Multiple studies are needed. As such, we don't recommend tongue as a complete replacement of heart because heart is "tried and true," whereas tongue we only have the one source. Hope that makes sense. Also to support hearts - if you look beef liver is fairly low in taurine (so we can roughly assume chicken liver is also), but the chicken heart+liver is still very high in taurine. There are other sources out there for heart, but this is the most readily available published journal article.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2016 1:07:48 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2016 1:08:22 GMT -5
Damnnnn Katt! I've told you a million times buuut so fast!
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Post by katt on Nov 14, 2016 1:10:57 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2016 2:26:01 GMT -5
That was also the document I was mentioning. I need to up my game with you.
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