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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2016 21:49:59 GMT -5
OK so here is their menu for the rest of this week:
Today (Thursday 11/17) PM - Ground beef chuck
Friday AM - Cornish game hen chunks (bone-in) cut into cubes? PM - Chicken heart, liver, and gizzards
Saturday AM - Cornish game hen chunks (bone-in) same cut PM - Ground beef chuck
Sunday AM - Cornish game hen chunks (bone-in) same cut PM - Chicken liver and gizzards
So I think we might have skipped right past the sliver stage. I gave them chunks since it was bone in (about inch by inch cubes) because I wasn't sure if cutting the bones smaller would be harmful or not. They didn't eat all of it and seemed to have some trouble with the cut, is it ok to cut bone smaller? I would have liked to not have cut it at all but I didn't think they would tackle a whole quarter hen if it was whole. They only ate maybe half of what was on the plate.
I had a few questions regarding the food. Max kept choking on the hen bones yesterday and scaring the crap out of me. Like, hacking out an inch long piece of rib choking. Since they can eat mice and stuff I figured he was choking more because he hasn't figured out he needs to chew but it still freaked me out. I don't want him to hurt himself, will he just figure it out on his own or should I be worried?
On a lighter note, Mei loved the hen and scarfed it down faster than I've seen her eat in a while. I'm not sure how much bone she got but she didn't seem to mind she was eating a chunk of chicken and not a lump of soup.
As for bone in meats I found some pork neck at the store. Would that be too big for them? I'm not sure I can cut them smaller and the chunks are about two inches wide and fairly large. How big of a bone is too big for a ferret?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2016 14:50:20 GMT -5
@machan I was also wondering if there was a trick to getting them to eat organs? Neither one will touch liver and they'll stash the heart but won't actually eat it. I'm having trouble getting them to eat as much as they did on the soup, is that normal? Max eats maybe half of what he's been eating and Mei barely eats at all. Truly a little bird.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2016 17:07:30 GMT -5
Hi @karliah357 Sorry for being away yesterday. I was having some internet issues. Feeding chunks is fine, With bone in meats you may want to avoid chopping them too small- some ferrets eat fast and that can increase choking risks. Max probably was not sure in which way he should eat the bone in meat chunk, so he almost swallows it whole. Naturally, carnivores don't tend to chew. They use their canines to make a kill, and use their pre-molars for ripping off pieces of meat, carnassial teeth for breaking up bone and then swallowing. When young animals start on raw at a young age, they adapt to eating it. You can kind of think like how humans brush their teeth, we may bleed when our gums aren't used to it, but gradually we get used to that kind of abrasian. Ferrets are similar with their bone in meat. Their designed for eating it, so as they adjust their gums get tougher when consuming bone in meats. You can chop the boen in meats small, but make sure they are a good size that makes them work at it, rather than swallow whole. Every ferret is different, so if he's choking / having issues on the pieces now, then make them larger. When you divide whole carcasses, try and keep in some large pieces of bone. If you notice they have issues with smaller bones, you can chop them into about the size of your pointer finger. I like to halve any thick marrow bones (through the bones) so that my guys can get in easier. When it comes to the rib parts of poultry, you can keep all the ribs together and chop those off in one large piece. The ribs are easy to eat, so you can try them as a whole and see how they go. If they have issues with bone in meats, feel free to hand feed them. The fact that they are willingly eating now is a plus. I'm also happy to hear that Mei enjoyed the hen. :"D She's getting a whole lot more stimulation from the whole bone in meat, rather than the soup. Soup and grinds can be too easy for ferrets- they really do need some mental stimulation, and when given large whole pieces of muscle and bone in meat (or wholeprey) they have to stop and work at it. You may begin to notice they have this cute little eating face (they semi-close their eyes and just focus on eating) I adore it. That really shows us that they are enjoying the food and it is working them in a good way. Pork neck may be a bit too large for bone in meat. If it is the muscle from the neck, then that makes a good muscle meat. But as for a bone in meat, probably not the best. I've heard that Pork buttons are a good bone in meat though! Bones from larger animals tends to be a bit dense compared to poultry bone in meats, which are lighter and easier for them to break down. Many tend to avoid bones from large animals because it is a risk of the ferrets chipping or breaking teeth from how dense the bone can be. It can be used in ground form though, but even chopping it up manually is a whole lot of work. I've tried lamb cutlets and ox tail before, but those were just far too dense (even though they look like perfect bone in meats, I just gave the meat instead so still win win.) I hear some ferrets can handle larger bone in meats, but I personally wouldn't risk it. I've also had some turkey necks from adult animals and those are large and had a lot of spongy bone tissue. They're easy to break down to appropriate sizes though. Organ meals can be the hardest meal for some. I hear some people have ferrets who love organ meals (Don't believe them, They are so lying---- my guys DREAD it.) Believe it or not, I struggle sometimes (mainly during hot weather) to get my guys to eat it. Some ferrets are also picky with the smells and tastes. Some organs will smell bad, some worse. Sometimes it depends on the protein. I personally HATE lamb kidney, because it stinks real bad, but Beef kidney is bareable. I found blending the organs together was the best option. If the organ meal includes hearts, those can be blended also in one batch. (this helps avoid stashing) It can be like an organ soup. Sometimes if you're home during an organ day, you could feed just the organ in the morning, and after they eat it, feed chunks of heart. I do this sometimes.) While chunks are ideal for organs, we also got to keep in mind that you have multiple ferrets and to avoid anyone eating too much or too little of this or that, this makes blending the organs the best option for you. I found that blending a whole egg or yolk into the organ mix helped a little bit. It must sort of dull out the strong taste or smells, but for me it worked to get mine interested. If Mei and Max are good with eating egg, you could try adding a single egg to the mix and then hand feed whenever necessary.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2016 17:09:23 GMT -5
Oh I noticed you feed gizzards. I just need to put out a warning: DON'T BLEND THOSE. You'll destroy your blender. ***I might know from experience, don't laugh*** They are super tough. Great for working on jaw strength. Gizards are considered a muscle meat, not an organ. So you may still need to find a second organ to make the organ mix balanced. (But you're on that~~~)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2016 19:51:35 GMT -5
Just checking in~ i hope everyone is well.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2016 2:26:47 GMT -5
Sorry the holidays kind of blindsided me 1. Ferret's name: Mei 2. Ferret's weight: 1Ib 7.8oz 3. Ferret has eaten "X" amount on average per meal: Around 1-1.5oz 4. Stools on various proteins: liquid, dark brown nearly black color 5. Activity levels: Normal 6. Weekly menu: See Max 1. Ferret's name: Max 2. Ferret's weight: 3Ib 2oz 3. Ferret has eaten "X" amount on average per meal: 4oz 4. Stools on various proteins: Same as Mei 5. Activity levels: Normal 6. Weekly menu: Wednesday am - cornish game hen pm - chicken heart Thursday am - Turkey breast with eggshell pm - Beef soup (we'll be traveling) Friday am - cornish game hen pm - beef soup OR minced organs in egg Saturday am - cornish game hen pm - chicken gizzards Sunday am - cornish game hen pm - beef soup OR minced organs in egg Ok so Friday-Sunday we're going to be out of town with the ferrets so all the food other than the premade soup will be bought in my parent's town, which is why the organ meals say soup or organ since I'm not sure what I'll be buying for them and I wanted to make sure I had something with organ in it for them to eat if for some reason I couldn't get the organs for them. I also feed them soup when we travel because they both get extremely stressed out from being in stuck in the carrier and I thought that would be the easiest on their stomachs. Both of them are having liquid brown/blackish poos. I took a picture I'll edit in shortly after I post this. I think it's from lack of bone? They don't eat the bone like they do straight meat so I'm worried about them. Activity, appetite, and thirst have all been fine. Sorry if my posts are really off this week, there's going to be a lot of traveling and family stuff going on. Hopefully the fuzzbutts don't get too overwhelmed with all the moving around, especially since their travel cage is...tiny. I hate it so much because it's just right for Mei but a jail cell for Max. It's the Kaytee cage we bought when we first got Mei before we got the ferret nation condo they live in now. I'm trying to get one that's bigger but still small enough to pack away in the trunk of my car. If Max keep expanding he may need his own bedroom, lol. I feel like I'm forgetting something I meant to ask but I can't remember what it was...it wasn't urgent or anything but now it's slipped my mind. Drat.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2016 22:34:58 GMT -5
Don't worry about it. It always seems to start getting hectic around end of the year. I can't believe the year has gone by so fast. You guys have Thanks Giving don't you? Have a great time~ This sunday I'm getting some christmas photos done at our local vet for our ferrets. How exciting! The dark stools look a little like organ (and heart) stools. They tend to have that colouring and texture. When did you start noticing these stools? Were they after an organ meal, or are they currently happening with all current meals? You could try adding an extra bone in meat, or some more egg shell to the soup and see if there's any difference. When you mention the CGH in your menu, is that bone in meat or muscle meat? (I assume BIM because you've mentioned it before anyway.) When you get back, It would be fantastic to see a menu that is from Monday through to Sunday. It will help me get a better idea on what has been fed or is intended to be fed. When you also list organs, it would be great to also know what proteins they are and the individual organ names just to check everything is balanced. At the moment from the current menu provided, it fantastic, a little high in chicken/CGH protein, but great start so far. You will still preferably need a few more proteins in the menu. So far you have used beef and turkey, those two make great muscle meats. If you can locate turkey as a bone in meat at a good price, I recommend having it as a secondary bone in meat to the chicken/CGH. It can help cut back on how much chicken/CGH is being used. Chicken and CGH is you aren't aware, are basically the same protein. CGH is a younger chicken. I recommend having at least two different proteins for bone in meat. (For example, I use Duck & Turkey, and also Chicken for bone in meats. I also use wholeprey, but I started with those three.) More than one protein can help even things/balance things out. Look out in any local shops, or asian groceries for things like Quail, or Duck. If it's in your budget or on special, feel free to buy whole ducks or other poultry that are intended for roasts providing they don't have any added things like herbs or added salts etc. Between two ferrets, a whole duck could provide at least 2 weeks worth of bone in meat meals (sometimes longer if you have more than one protein for certain meals) once it has been chopped and divided into baggies. Other poultry you could look out for can include pheasant, turkey, goose, pigeon, partridge, etc. Rabbit also makes a great bone in meat. They can be whole if in budget, or simple things like necks, wings, legs, frames/carcasses, etc. At the moment, there's no rush so take your time with trying new proteins and getting the menu balanced out. Soups and even grinds are perfect for travel. You could also potentially get some Freeze Dried Raw for Travel and/or emergency back up foods. I can just imagine Max out growing the carrier. hehe. Being stuck in anything for a long period can be quite stressful for any animal. I certainly wouldn't like it myself. Bye bye for now~ Have a great weekend~~
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2016 19:01:04 GMT -5
Hey @karliah357! How is Mei and Max?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2016 0:16:18 GMT -5
I'm back!
All is well, both are doing great. Had and incident where they got into some clay cat litter and ate a little while dragging their food around but it looks like everyone has passed it just fine. I was worried it would gum up inside them but it came out still in little pieces like it went in. Still watching them.
1. Ferret's name: Mei 2. Ferret's weight: 1Ib 8oz 3. Ferret has eaten "X" amount on average per meal: Around 1-1.5oz 4. Stools on various proteins: slightly liquidish, brown 5. Activity levels: Normal 6. Weekly menu: See Max
1. Ferret's name: Max 2. Ferret's weight: 3Ib 1oz 3. Ferret has eaten "X" amount on average per meal: 3oz 4. Stools on various proteins: Same as Mei 5. Activity levels: Normal 6. Weekly menu: Bone-in is duck, cornish game hen (CGH), or chicken wings. Muscle is turkey or ground beef Monday AM - Duck PM - CGH or ground beef Tuesday AM - Chicken wings PM - Turkey Wednesday AM - CGH PM - Chicken hearts Thursday AM - Duck PM - Chicken wings or turkey Friday AM - CGH PM - Chicken heart, chicken liver, sweatbread (cow) Saturday AM - Duck PM - Ground Beef Sunday AM - CGH PM - chicken liver, sweatbread (cow)
I tried to balance all the chicken out with other things and I'm looking into finding somewhere to get rabbit or quail. I think I might have found quail at the Asian market but I need to run by and look again since it was a while back.
The egg mixture with the organs worked! They actually ate it, though they looked suspicious. Like kids who know there might be cauliflower in their mashed potatoes.
We're all happy to be back home, the holiday was crazy.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2016 9:08:46 GMT -5
Welcome back! I hope you enjoyed your weekend with family and fuzz. Sounds like they have been keeping up their mischief I'm glad to hear that everything is alright though. Sometimes ferrets may ingest some litter when they stash meat in it. Usually a few pieces shouldn't be an issue, It's when they consume large amounts, but when in doubt you can always protocol to be safe in future. The stools you mention seem loose. You can try upping their bone in meat meals and see if there is any difference in texture and consistency. Both Mei and Max are eating wonderful amounts. I'm happy that they are enjoying their new diet. I will go through your menu and add little notes. I colour coded it for easier reading too. Great work on getting duck for bone in meat! Speaking of bone in meat, How is Mei and Max going with eating bone in meats? Are they handling them well? The menu is still a bit chicken/CGH heavy, however you've done fantastic with creating a menu. It's starting to really shape out now. If you are able to get some rabbit or quail, those both would be fantastic to add into the variety of your menu. It would also help to cut back on chicken/CGH. Look out for any other proteins for organs as well. It doesn't hurt to have one extra protein for either the hearts or livers. (If you find Lamb/Sheep Hearts, or Ox/Beef Hearts, those are both fantastic options.) I cannot recall if I mentioned, but Ox is the same protein basically as Beef. It's just older, kind of like what Sheep is to Lamb. Great work with the egg int he organ mix! I found out this by experimenting when I was trying to get my stubborn girl haru eating lamb kidneys (apparently not a favourite.) I think the egg may dull down the strong taste or odour, which possibly makes it more appealing to eat. (They probably thought something like "This egg looks and tastes funky!") Great work with Mei and Max. I'm so happy for you guys that these two are doing so well!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2016 16:58:45 GMT -5
They're doing better with the bone-in. They still have trouble with the bigger, thicker ones but they love their bones now! I catch them "fighting" over wings and legs, playing tug of war and trying to steal it from each other. Both will really crunch when they eat it's so cute.
Organs are really hard to find here, I usually get them from out of town and bring them in.I wish the butchers I'd spoken to would just sell me some haha...I plan on browsing around when I head home for Christmas and hoarding some stuff to freeze. I'm hoping the Asian market might have some organs. I remember they had lamb last time I went so I may see how much that is too.
Quiz 1. Heart, liver, and other make up 3 out of 14 meals for the week at 21% of the weekly meal intake with heart at 7% liver at 7% and other at 7% if I calculated that correctly. I think heart is technically a muscle meat but I include it in the organs since it has such an important role in their diet. Without the heart it would be like 14%. I think I'm overthinking this... 2. Taurine 3. Vitamin A is the highest concentration, I think.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2016 4:17:57 GMT -5
That's absolutely fantastic. I guess it is now safe to say we can start working on balancing out your menu. I will post a lesson tomorrow night for you since it's been a while since I've done one. With things that may be hard to come buy, i recommend buying them in bulk if you have the space and can afford it. It saves you time and potentially money in the long run. Organs (not including heart) is a total of 10% in the weekly menu. Liver at 5% and another secreting organ at 5% for an overall total of 10% for those organs for that whole week. With heart it is considered a muscle, and isn't counted in with the organs we feed and you're absolutely right by it being important. Taurine is correct! And Vitamin A correct also, liver does contain large amounts or VitA. Great work on those pop quizzes!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2016 5:20:36 GMT -5
Here is a lesson~
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2016 20:32:14 GMT -5
Hey @karliah357, Just checking in~ How is Mei and Max going with their raw diet?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2016 2:46:07 GMT -5
All is well! Thank you for the lesson! Bacteria is so interesting. Lance actually used to be a germaphobe until we got to university level biology. Then he realized it was literally impossible to avoid bacteria and it kind of broke his fear I guess. Speediest exposure therapy I've ever seen. I remember back when my Shih Tzu Sophie was a puppy and we fed her wet puppy food, she got sick a lot. Lots of vomiting and diarrhea we were told to just ignore. Looking back, most of her problems were food related. Poor thing. I actually considered becoming a biologist at one point so I used to read up on plants, animals, and bacteria, but it turned out not to really be my thing. Ironically enough Lance the ex-germaphobe is now a nurse. Life is funny. I've had vets and normal people accuse me of trying to kill my ferrets by feeding them raw. It's terribly insulting, especially when they say the people on this forum are crazy. Like excuse me, do you have years of experience raising and/or breeding ferrets? No? Bah. Though, I'm always a little paranoid I don't clean up after their meals well enough since they drag the raw meat all over the cage. I use vinegar to clean it if they are still in there and hydrogen peroxide while they're out playing so it has time to air out before they go back in, but I don't use that one as often. I don't want the cleaner that makes them sick but I also don't want myself to get sick since I'm a nail biter. There's my embarrassing confession of the week, haha... My only concern this week is that they have started fighting over food, especially wingettes. At first I thought it was cute, like tug of war, but now they've started actually lunging at each other and hissing. I can't tell if they're actually trying to hurt each other or not. There hasn't been any blood or fear pee/poo at least... I'm going shopping tomorrow to try and balance out their menu some more. I'm also looking into getting them their own freezer so I can finally have mine back haha. I noticed they'd been having strange poops so I started keeping track of it the last few days but I think part of it is because of all the new proteins they've been getting this week. They aren't used to the variety yet so I'm hoping they both start balancing out next week. One more question: would putting a fitted sheet on the bottom of my boxspring make it so Mei can't get inside the boxspring anymore? The whole point of making playtime in our bedroom was because our room is considerably more ferret friendly now that we've had a chance to clean it up but Mei is the master of getting into whatever she can. She managed to tear off a hole through the thin film underneath the boxspring and make it her new dangerous playground. I think this might be the first week I haven't had very many dietary problem with them, other than the poop. They're eating without being bribed and seem to really like their meals! Minus the organs...they still don't like those very much. The egg trick helps considerably though!
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