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Post by Heather on Sept 25, 2016 21:29:53 GMT -5
Application: Name:Kelsey HF Forum Username: karliah357 Please confirm that you are 18 years of age or older: I was born in 1995, I turn 22 next year. 1. Where did you first learn about natural diets for ferrets? From a friend of mine. I then researched it on the internet. She also told me about this site. 2. Please describe the type of diet you would like assistance in switching your ferret(s) to. Be sure to include if you are interested in feeding whole prey (live or frozen-thawed) and if you are wanting to FULLY switch to a natural diet or PARTIALLY. If you are unsure what kind of diet you want to put your ferrets on, please express that and we can help you find the best type of natural diet for your ferret. I am interesting in putting the two on a frankenprey diet. No whole prey right now, maybe later on. Especially not live prey (I'm too much of a bleeding heart). I want them fully switched, no more kibble. 3. Why are you interested in switching your ferrets to a natural diet? Mei is a DEW and both are Marshall's ferrets, so I know they may have some significant health issues in the future. The kibble they eat just disgusts me, it's so bad for them. I saw a friend's ferret who is on raw and she smells better, seemed livelier, and overall looked much healthier than my own furbutts. Feeding them a species appropriate is the best thing I can do to help them longer, healthier lives. 4. Do you understand that switching your ferret to a natural diet can be a lengthy, arduous process? Its not an overnight switch. It requires a commitment of several months at minimum. Your HF Mentor will be more then happy to assist you in switching your ferret(s) to a natural diet, but you need to be equally as committed. The switch takes time and effort every single day. It can also be extremely frustrating at times. If you aren't willing to tough out a potentially lengthy switching process, you have major life changes approaching (baby on the way, moving, starting school, getting married/divorced, etc), or limited time due to work, then it might be a better idea to wait on switching your ferret's diet until you have more time. Are you willing and realistically able to make the neccessary time commitment? I am willing to dedicate the time necessary for the switch. I have a live in boyfriend who can help me out as needed. We've already made the soup and attempted to feed it to them (they both didn't want anything to do with it yet haha) so we've already gotten the chance to integrate this into our schedules some. I will be the primary person caring for them. 5. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names? Ages? Genders? Do they have any health problems? Are they overweight? Underweight? How long have you had each ferret for? Mei - female, spayed/descented, DEW, 5 months old, deaf, 1.7 pounds, had her for a month. Got her from a small local pet store. Max - male, neutered/descented, cinnamon sable, 1.3 pounds, had him for about 2 weeks. Got him from Petco. Edit* Max is now 1.8 pounds. 6. What diet do you currently feed your ferrets? (Please include all treats, supplements, etc) Do they already eat some form of soup? Currently all they eat is marshall's kibble mixed with zupreem kibble. They will not eat the chicken soup yet. Edit* They are now on Instinct Chicken FDR and I have had some success with Mei eating soup off of a spoon. 7. Have you ever tried to switch your ferrets to a natural diet in the past? If yes, what happened? No, this is a first. 8. What additional information about yourself or your ferrets would you like to share? Mei is notorious for eating things she REALLY should not eat. Toy stuffing, blankets, carpet, etc. Scares the heck out of me. I have university classes from till 2pm MTThF and till 6pm on W. Edit* Schedule change: Classes till 2pm MF, Noon TTh, 6pm W. 9. How often during the week do you have access to a computer? I have a personal laptop and a smartphone. 10. Please post a picture of each of your ferrets (if possible). Hi and welcome to the mentoring program . In a little while your mentor (Machan), will introduce herself and you can get started on a new adventure in natural ferret care and diets. Please remember to post regularly (daily or as per arranged with your mentor) so that your mentor can assist you move along safely in this adventure. If you experience computer difficulties or are going to be away, please notify your mentor and most of all relax and have fun . Your mentor is here to help you on this journey. ciao
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2016 22:36:54 GMT -5
Hello @karliah357 ! It's nice to meet you! I'm Machan, I'll be your mentor for this transition~ I'm from Victoria, Australia- so there may be a time difference. I do hope that won't be an issue. I'm currently studying to become a Vet Nurse. I have four dumplings called Haru, Yuki, Beavis & Amy. If you want to know some more about me, check out my profile in the Meet Your Mentor Section: holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/21689/meet-mentorMei is pretty young! That's wonderful! Is Max around the same age too? Ferrets imprint on their food at around ~6 or so months of age, so we can approach this transition in a two possible ways. First, we could start with the soup, however since you have young ferrets (Assuming Max is young also) we could skip the soup stage, and try them with slivers of meat. The soup stage is usually for older or more stubborn ferrets who transition, so it's not always a necessary first approach when transitioning. Let me know which one you would be more interested in going with. I will also leave the soup recipe on this post and other helpful information to get you started. With any transition, it needs to be done gradually. So the first couple of weeks may be slow as we begin to remove the kibble and start in a new raw diet. In this time you may notice some changes, such as smells or funky looking poops (These are simply a detox phase and pass after 2 weeks or so), difference in the coat, and even energy levels. I will also be giving you small lessons throughout the transition and will do pop quizzes to make sure you're on the right track. (They'll be pretty simple, so don't worry about getting them right or wrong~) Here is a quick reminder: Raw Soup Recipe:
8oz raw chicken thigh (raw) 1 oz raw chicken liver (or other raw liver) 1-2 raw chicken hearts (approximately 1 oz) or 1 oz other raw heart ½ to ¾ tsp bone meal or crushed egg shell (air-dry egg shell then crush with mortar and pestle or in a clean coffee grinder) Their raw food is also safe to leave out for a period of time. Here is the basic guidelines:
Soups - 6-8 hours, Grinds - 8-12 hours, Chunks - 10-24 hours depending on the size (larger chunks last longer) Bone-in meats - 12-24 hours, again depending on the size, Whole prey - up to 48 hours. You can also post as much as you like to this thread about Mei and Max, photos and all if you would like. If you have any questions or concerns, don't hesitate to ask~ Talk to you soon!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2016 20:25:21 GMT -5
Hello! Sorry for the late reply. Max is younger than Mei; Mei was born March 20 and Max on June 6, So Mei is six months now and Max is three months. I have some premade soup in the freezer along with some chicken hearts and livers. Mei will eat the soup with oil on it but I don't think she's figured out it's a meal yet. Thankfully Mei will eat just about anything if it has oil on it so I can use that to get her to start eating something. Max seems repulsed by it and won't touch it so I bought some ferretone (gross) and I'm trying to find some straight salmon oil. 1. Ferret's name: Mei 2. Ferret's weight: 1.7 Ibs (would you prefer this in grams or ibs/ounces?) 3. Ferret has eaten "X" amount on average per meal: Mei is a light eater on kibble. She'll eat about three tablespoons of soup before deciding she doesn't want it anymore. 4. Stools on various proteins: Mei's kibble stools are generally either normal or a little mucousy. I think this is from stress. 5. Activity levels: Moderate level of activity 6. Weekly menu: For now I'm not sure.Just soup or slivers until she adjusts I guess! 1. Ferret's name: Max 2. Ferret's weight: 1.8Ibs 3. Ferret has eaten "X" amount on average per meal: Max is a big eater. He cleans out my wallet every month lol. 4. Stools on various proteins: Max has weird stools that bounce back and forth from being nice solid kibble stools and light brown with a soft serve consistency. That started when I switched them to instinct chicken so I put them back on zupreem for now and it's still the same. 5. Activity levels: High levels, loves to run and jump 6. Weekly menu:Certainly not sure for him just yet. Does that make a good baseline? I can add whatever else you need to know as well. Tomorrow I'm going to take their kibble out for a few hours then thaw the soup and throw some ferretone in and see if they'll eat it like a meal. I'm also going to try and find some beef organs to make a beef version of the soup sometime after Wednesday if Max still won't eat the soup. I'm hoping to find salmon oil soon. The slivers might work with Max, he'll try and eat everything in my house except the soup. Do I need to repost their beginning pictures here for you? I probably need to take a new one of Max because he looks much slimmer now than in his original picture. Grew into that giant head of his some A little health history: They both are being treated for ear mites right now and recently they had some strange bowl movements I made a post about. I came to the conclusion they might be stressed since this week has been exam week for my boyfriend and I so their schedules are all weird right now. Should stabilize after Wednesday. Good luck with your studies! Your fuzzbutts are adorable I must add~
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2016 1:48:45 GMT -5
Hi! No need to apologise~ Max is a small baby, that's adorable! I love it when ferrets are kits, full of energy and so much fun. I'm sure they're both keeping you on your toes. I love the fact that you're all prepared, great work!! Beginning photos would be fantastic. All you need is one holding a ferret up so that their body looks like a tube. You can list ferret weights in whichever you prefer. ^^ Some ferrets may be repulsed at first by the soup, but after a few tries they should be fairly okay with the new food. You're right on track~ Let me know how trying them with soup or slivers goes~ It's funny that you mention Mei being a light eater! Female ferrets tend to eat very little. 3 tablespoons would be around 1.5 ounces, the fact that she's okay with the food is actually fantastic. My girl Haru (adult) eats around 2 ounces per meal (when she was a kit she ate around 3-4 ounces per meal.) You may gradually see an increase in appetite once they are fully on the soup, apparently kits eat quite alot in general. Max being a big eater is a great sign (Good for him, not so much for the wallet- but hey, thats the joy of being a ferrent.) He's full of energy and health, wonderful. I adore kits. The differences in stools can also be due to the kibble brand they have at the time. Stress is also a major factor and that can be brought on for a variety of reasons. Common reasons: -Sudden diet change (eg, new protein, new brand.) -Environmental stress (eg, moving, new ferret to the business, new sights/smells/tastes, etc) You will notice a whole range of stool types during the transition. Many raw feeders or ferret owners become poop experts. (haha...) Foods like bone in meats (chicken necks, duck wings/etc) for example, will produce a solid stool, sometimes it may appear seedy. Many feeders prefer to have a bone in meal meal followed by a muscle meat or an organ meal (this evens it out.) When ferrets are on a new food or new protein, they may experience seedy stools, usually they adjust and those go away. There is also times where that's not the case and the diet simply needs more muscle meat in the diet or less bone in meat. Same applies when the stools are loose, that may indicate the diet requires more bone in meat or less muscle. Liver or organ meals produce a thick consistent, sometimes glossy looking stool that is dark in colour and may have a distinct smell to it (organ poops are smelly, but not over the top smelly.) Also sorry to hear about the earmites! Natsy little things they are. I saw a video a while back about them, just thinking about them makes my skin itch. My Beavis had a nasty case of earmites before I adopted him. I hope Mei and Max feel better soon!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2016 19:41:00 GMT -5
Hey~ Checking in, how are Mei & Max going?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2016 20:25:36 GMT -5
They are doing good, sorry Wednesdays are late days for me. Mei is still willing to nibble on some soup and Max didn't gag this last time but he also still wouldn't eat it. Going to try again tomorrow and see if I can get him to actually eat some. Pics and weights incoming! Should edit this with them later tonight. Took me way too long to get home today. I'm glad Mei is eating enough! I was worried because it didn't seem like much but if that's ok then I won't stress about it. Hopefully the next introduction will get Max to start eating it instead of just sniffing it for hours. I was curious, what kind of stools are yellow/orange? They've only ever had them once but I was never really sure why they had them.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2016 1:04:13 GMT -5
No worries! You don't need to rush when it comes to the pics and weights are fine logged once a week. We have a big time gap between us, so I'm not worried if you post late in your time. (It would probably turn out to be fine for my time anyway. haha!) ---Also, I probably should have mentioned, I'm not available all the time on the forum and tend to check in once or twice a day, so if there is ever an emergency or you need me to check in asap, I'm contactable through FB (You've added me~) or in emergency cases you can reach out to the other mentors here or via the group (You're in the HFF group I assume?)--- I was worried about how much girls ate when I started as well. It's so weird, but they tend to stay quite small and lean for the rest of their lives so I can understand. Is Max larger than Mei yet? Or does he still have a lot of growing to do? (The size difference between male and female ferrets melts my heart.) Without an image, it really is hard to say what could be the cause for a yellow/orange stool. It could be the new food passing through the GI tract too fast. Ferret bodies tend to adjust to the new foods, so as long as it doesn't become a persistent issue, then the new food would be your answer. ------ I'll give you a lesson~ That's all for now. I hope that was some useful information for you. Take care~~ Random Ferret Fun Fact: Kits, baby ferrets, have 30 teeth which should be in by 3 months of age and then replaced with 34 adult teeth by 9 months of age.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2016 19:34:49 GMT -5
Max is already a little bigger than Mei and since he's half her age I'm expecting a big boy. He still hasn't completely grown into his head or paws so I'm hoping he ends up being my big guy. I love big ferrets they can be so cuddly and Max is a major cuddlebutt when he's tired. The two have been having some constant watery diarrhea the last couple of days. No discoloration, moderate odor, either has some solid to it or is completely liquid. Activity levels and stuff is still good but they are going much more frequently than usual. Should I give them a day off or keep introducing the new food to them? I wasn't sure if they should have breaks in the process or if it's just a keep-it-up kind of thing. I didn't know they lost teeth then! That is extremely adorable. Maybe I'll be lucky and find a pearly white laying in the cage at some point haha. What is the HFF Group? I don't use my Facebook anymore but my boyfriend does. Would it be ok if he friends you? He's the other half of my ferrent team so he does half the work with them. He just wouldn't remember to make the updates on here since he's in nursing school and I like stalking the forum a little too much. I read your bio and I have to tell you, I have the same problem. I'm 21 and look like I'm 13. People at restaurants still try to give me kids menus. Last time I went to a deli the guy asked how I was liking school and asked if I was going into the eighth grade and I had to break it to him I'm a college senior. Never seen a grown man that embarrassed lmao.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2016 19:54:50 GMT -5
I'm having an absurd time trying to post pictures from imgur for some reason. Here is Mei being camera shy. Here is Max glaring at me because I interrupted playtime. I think I said he was a cinnamon before when I first got him but he looks like much more of a chocolate now that I know the difference. I apologize for my messy living room.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2016 16:49:18 GMT -5
Oh my, luck is not on my side. I wrote a whole reply yesterday and it didn't seem to post. I wrote it again today and it didn't post. Sigh. Third times a charm. Okay! How are the stools today? still watery? How close is the kibble being fed to the soup? What is the consistency of the soup? (It should be thick like yogurt consistency.) I asked for advice from Senior Mentors and Heather said: Before removing the soup, I would be tempted to try 1 tsp of pumpkin for 2 days and see if there is any solidification of the stools or if it remains liquid. If there is no change, I would be very tempted to vet and check for bacterial load. I'm wondering if the issue may be from the kibble, well not so much the brand of kibble but the ingredients. You mentioned having some issues with Instinct Chicken, the Zupreem is also mainly chicken based- so that's where many of us question where the kibble companies source their ingredients. I checked the Zupreem ingredients and they do seem pretty heavy in plant ingredients. Ferrets do tend to have issues digesting plant material, so that could be another contributing factor but I'm thinking it could be more due to the source of their meat ingredients. I hope everything is all and well for Mei and Max, It is good that the activity levels are normal. I would have been more concerned if there was anything like lethargy. Your boyfriend is more than welcome to send me a friend request. The facebook group is also here: www.facebook.com/groups/158560084258398/He may need to fill out our application form which I'll link below. Let me know his facebook name (here or via pm) and I can get another admin to accept his join request. docs.google.com/forms/d/18sy7XvP_LJ16usfdaGZAijZfeLIQ8M7uR9t8TgQWfyQ/viewform
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2016 2:25:02 GMT -5
Stools today are mostly solid. Smell is just a little worse than usual and they're both still kind of gassy. I usually take the kibble out for at least 4 hours before trying to feed them the soup because I read they get a bacterial problem if they eat the foods too close together. The soup is kind of a pasty consistency because I usually have to add some kind of flavor helper and it makes it a little closer to slightly chunky yogurt. I've tried it as a more watery soup hoping Max would drink it but I only tried that once so far.
I let off on them for Saturday and they are giving me better poops so I guess it's mostly food stress. Max is my biggest culprit and he hasn't actually eaten any of the soup (other than the dollops I put on his tongue). I do put the kibble in right after...I should probably wait on that now that I think about it. I'm feeding them the Instinct Chicken FDR right now. They don't seem to be having any problems with it anymore so I think their last episode must have been from something else.
Should I go ahead and give them the pumpkin even though they seem to be stabilizing a little bit? I'm hoping they are still doing good in the morning. They tend to get runny poo when our schedules are wonky and they don't get out at their regular times as well.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2016 18:22:23 GMT -5
Very good! Since there has been improvement, the pumpkin isn't necessary.
If you find that you are getting the watery stools again, then try the pumpkin. It sounds like it was a reaction to the new food, which isn't always a bad thing. Another option in the future if you find you get watery or runny stools from the soup would be to possibly increase the egg shell powder (but for now it should be fine.)
Even with kibbles and FDR, ferret bodies go through an adjustment period which can usually go from a week or two. During that time it's best to gradually introduce new food items, and trial it for around that time.
(I'm in class right now so I will check in later tonight if I missed anything.)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2016 22:20:35 GMT -5
Thank you! I'll make sure to keep trying with them. I'm hoping I can get Max to actually eat something by the end of this week. I can tell I'm wearing him down a little lol he isn't spitting it out anymore.
So I had a question about the heart component of the soup. Does the heart have components other than Taurine they need for their diet? I want to make a beef version of the soup to introduce to them in case Max accepted that one a little more readily and to get Mei a little variety in the early stages, but I can't find heart. I did find tongue, but those suckers were expensive and I'm not sure how well it freezes. So two part question: how long can meat be frozen (up until now we usually eat all of ours within the week but tongue and organs are going to be all ferret) and if I used Taurine powder, would they be missing anything in their diet? I don't want them to lack anything but a cheaper alternative would be nice. All else fails I'll bite the bullet and buy it and cube it up.
Sorry I haven't sent the facebook stuff yet, I kept forgetting to pm the information until I was in class and didn't have a computer...oops.
1. Ferret's name: Mei 2. Ferret's weight: 1.7Ibs 3. Ferret has eaten "X" amount on average per meal: Approx 3 tablespoons of soup 4. Stools on various proteins: Still kibble for now 5. Activity levels: Same, moderate level 6. Weekly menu: More chicken soup and some ground beef tomorrow (just beef without organs, testing to see if either one like red meat a little more)
1. Ferret's name: Max 2. Ferret's weight: 2.0Ibs 3. Ferret has eaten "X" amount on average per meal: Working on it 4. Stools on various proteins: Still on kibble 5. Activity levels: Same, high levels 6. Weekly menu: Same as Mei
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2016 18:37:10 GMT -5
Beef hearts may sometimes be under Ox hearts. Ox is the same protein, just usually older animal. (Just like Sheep is to Lamb.) If you can find Ox heart, then you would have your Beef heart. You could also ask the butcher if they are able to get in any certain things for you. How is Mei and Max going currently with the chicken soup? If they are more willing now, you can look into limiting when the kibble is being fed. (Example: Feeding kibble once a day at night.) Kibble would usually be fed 24/7 and is always readily available for the ferret. By limiting it, they start to learn schedules to some degree. During this you can begin to increase the frequency of soup being fed and even try leaving a plate with soup on it with them during the morning and see how they go without humans around. (Example, feeding soup at breakfast and at lunch, kibble at dinner.) If you also have beef on hand, you can try feeding Mei and Max those as either ground (I just read that you're getting some) or slivers on it's own without the soup. This would also help them get a taste for the new protein, plus it can aid towards getting them onto the raw diet faster. If they begin to eat slivers or solid raw on their own, then the better it will be for you because you can then look into starting to build a diet plan for them. (If you're interested in trying to write one up, even if it's just a fake plan, go for it and I'll help you to get a good understanding for it.) Tongue is great and should freeze fine. It would probably need to be chopped up beforehand to make it easier later on down the track and since it's expensive it would probably best best purchased when it is discounted or as a once off and kept as a back up for hearts in emergency cases. I can understand wanting to buy things cheap when possible. I'm a full-time student myself and don't have a lot of money so I found buying certain meats during seasonal discounts was one good option. You also have the option to buy online at certain places, or buy in bulk if you have freezer space. I put away money everytime I have some available and buy about $200 of meat in one bulk shop. Creating a little note on sources is a good option. This can help you to find out prices and the best deals. One place may have Lamb kidney for $5, where another may be $2-3. When I buy things I look into weights and how long roughly it may last between the amount of ferrets I own. If the product is a little pricey, but will last a couple of weeks, then I would pay the difference and go for it. The longer they last, the less likely you will need to restock so in the long run you could end up saving money. I think this is another fantastic reason to buy a variety. The heart is essential with any diet, including the soup as you already know and the Taurine is a major contributor to that fact. Meat in general can be frozen for up to 6 to 12 months for human consumption. Freezing can alter certain nutrients to some degree but the process doesn't happen rapidly or in huge amounts so it's really nothing to be concerned about. Over time it can also alter textures and probably even taste. I hear some people keeping meat for longer than a year, even 2 years and still feed it to their ferrets with no ill effect. I personally buy in bulk so I restock every 5-6 months because that's just how much I go through with my 4. I also find that this way also keeps my stock fresh (other raw feeders may or may not disagree), this is just how I am as a raw feeder. I noticed my guys prefer fresher products, even if they were frozen for a month or so. You don't need to follow the way I do things, you can find your own way of doing things for Mei and Max. Hearts also contain high amounts of protein, thiamine, folate, selenium, phosphorus, zinc, coenzyme Q10 and several B vitamins. These are all needed in their own various amounts and can easily be obtained through the diet in general, as can Taurine to some degree. However, despite the fact Taurine can be found in basically any moving muscle, it can only be found in smaller amounts compared to hearts. Taurine can only be found in large amounts in the heart, tongue and even brain. This means that hearts, which are also easily found in most stores, are a major contributor to the Taurine intake for ferrets and also ensures that they did get enough Taurine in their diet. Taurine can be supplemented with Powder, but that is really a last resort option. It's not as great as the real deal, clearly, but It doesn't hurt to have some powder put away for emergency back up. Just like Bone meal powder and egg shell powder cannot replace real bones, taurine powder is not suitable for the long term and cannot replace fresh and real Taurine. Fun Fact: Taurine is water-soluable, This means that Taurine is not stored in the body, it is excreted VIA Urine once the ferret body reaches it's required intake. (I will do a lesson on Water soluable vs Fat soluable nutrients another day.) Taurine is essential in the diet regardless of where it comes from because ferrets, like any obligate carnivore (such as the cat), cannot synthesize this nutrient in their own body, so it is left to the diet. There's more info on Taurine here if you're interested. Sorry for the long reply haha! Good luck with the ground beef, I hope Mei and Max enjoy it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2016 20:55:43 GMT -5
Thank you very much for all the information!
Mei liked the beef. Though next time I think I'll try to warm it up a bit first. She ate a few bites, but then acted like it was too cold and didn't want anymore after that. Max's activity levels dropped and he's been sleeping a lot along with volatile diarrhea. I checked his bum and it looks red and a little crusty. We're going to go ahead and take him to the vet tomorrow. I'll post again as soon as I get some answers from the vet, but I'm thinking this might be a bacterial thing. He was doing good with solid poop but then he just started having diarrhea that is slightly mucousy and looked different from the diarrhea they were having previously. I'll keep you posted.
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