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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2016 9:39:45 GMT -5
... just been browsing around other FB ferret pages ... because I'm nosey really  I'm shocked by how many kits are being lost at later than the first week. In the first week, and certainly the first few days sometimes the odd kits don't make it. Having said that, this isn't habitual in every litter in my experience. Just browsing, I am seeing kits that have died (with no explanation) at 20 days, and as late as 4 and a half weeks. This surely isn't usual??? Granted it was an angora litter, and some of the kits have severely deformed noses, and all of them are small (comparable to some of my litters who are all genetically small in size) BUT this is so sad. I would be devastated and looking for answers if any of my kits died later than in the first week. |
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Post by bitbyter on Jun 19, 2016 10:05:47 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I am going to be a little blunt here. Angora's ARE a genetic mutation and NOT one that adds a survival advantage (quite the opposite). It is part and parcel of breeding specifically for a mutation that is like this. Oftentimes there are congenital issues internally that may not be obvious (heart defects, kidney issues, respiratory problems, etc).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2016 10:16:10 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I am going to be a little blunt here. Angora's ARE a genetic mutation and NOT one that adds a survival advantage (quite the opposite). It is part and parcel of breeding specifically for a mutation that is like this. Oftentimes there are congenital issues internally that may not be obvious (heart defects, kidney issues, respiratory problems, etc). That has always been my belief, but many now claim angoras are being improved all the time ... it had led me to believe these sorts of losses were no longer part and parcel. I don't know how people do it to be honest. If that happened to me, that would be the end of that line. I don't and would never breed angoras though, so I would hope to never have to face those losses. |
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Post by bitbyter on Jun 20, 2016 7:08:17 GMT -5
This is my personal opinion but I think it's wrong. Encouraging the development of a coat that is directly tied to other health deficiencies and compromising the primary purpose of the coat itself (insulation) for money and better sales is horrible. It's not like we already don't have enough health issues with these little beasties.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2016 9:31:27 GMT -5
This is so sad. When breeders continue lines just because the kits are valued for their "different" looks by some of their client base, to me it feels like they're betraying the very species.  As far as the issue goes, it's hard to say without several genetic studies being done...perhaps the alleles for the genes that produce the look of the angora are linked to deleterious alleles. Perhaps the genes for the angora are recessive, and intensive inbreeding in order to keep them recessive has made other genes recessive when, in fact, the recessive forms of those genes are lethal. It could even be related to epigenetics. Regardless of the mechanism, the death of the kits is tragic. Were these lines "exaggerated" or more "pure" angora? |
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Post by Sherry on Jun 20, 2016 9:48:42 GMT -5
I have deliberately "chased off" what I consider to be bad breeders here, and more than once. Those who breed specifically for pandas, blazes, etc. And angora breeders for the reasons noted above. I get really upset when others try to duplicate what we are dealing with from the mills.
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Post by crazylady on Jun 20, 2016 12:31:36 GMT -5
Hi Vicki Ann I know of quite a few Angora breeders ( there are a few who are good ) and just for an example one breeder in England bred 7 litters 38 kits between them they where 1/2 angora mother full angora dad survival 4 !! why put jills through this year after year reason MONEY angoras are the new novelty factor and go for big bucks ! and they do put them through it year after year until they are worn out then they are sold off as fixed pets ! I have heard this year the excuse of well they have died due to heat ! does not make any sense if the heat was killing kits it would kill normal ferrets too some angora breeders even go as far as breeding a normal ferret the same day as an angora then the normal ferrets kits are disposed of and she has to foster the more profitable angora kits ! as sherry has mentioned there a freak that nature has decided should not survive this is why the moms cant nurse but man has stepped in and found a way to keep them alive take care bye for now
Bev
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2016 13:34:32 GMT -5
That's just beyond unethical. I have no words for what people do for these long-coated ferrets.
One particular breeder has also bred a litter of small ferrets (clearly for the money alongside the angoras) and she has had losses in that litter too plus problems with the jill so the babies are being fostered. And I see these kits going to breeding homes too! Labelled 'special' for surviving! Breeders like that are giving small ferrets a really bad name and producing small ferrets that will be sickly when they should be robust working ferrets.
I'm just horrified. I have had one jill to abort this year and become very ill and that's the end of that. She is a very much loved member of my business and makes a great 'aunt' to Fern's litter. I wouldn't dream of selling her off because she can't produce kits.
And if I was to have a jill to lose lots of kits that would be the end of that line too. I just don't get it, surely if they cannot a) be born alive b) be vigorous and get feeding and c) grow from Mum's milk and meat and thrive ... they are not meant to be and certainly if they are helped along, they shouldn't be bred from.
Perhaps I'm more ruthless than most because we farm sheep and well ... we want certain traits like good muscling and conformation, fast growth rate, nice head BUT never at the expense of easy lambing, vigorous lambs and essentially healthy animals that can survive with minimal intervention.
Those figures are horrifying Bev - 4 survivors out of 38 kits born! That's just crazy ... and those poor jills have put so much into those kits for them just to die. Although the price tag of an angora is ridiculous. I probably don't charge enough for my ferrets, but a good home is worth more than anything. But to see angoras sold regularly at £300 per kit really gets my goat.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2016 14:58:13 GMT -5
I shouldn't have gone back and looked again ... a very excited person who has reserved four kits from certain breeders has posted pics of her future fuzzies. The angora has a deformed nose, and the mini ferret is a bulldog ferret with a pug like face  I'm disgusted to be honest, the breeder seems to either not realise or not address the fact that these ferrets are horribly deformed, and the future owner also seems completely unaware. |
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Post by crazylady on Jun 20, 2016 15:32:50 GMT -5
they see what they want to see Vicki Ann and its not just England I have seen them all over the world I Saw them way back when they started and it has not improved much deformed noses and often they have over shot or under shot jaws I breed to keep certain lines alive but also to keep the old fashioned ferret alive big boned hobs with big broad heads and jills who have heads half the size of the males but health and longevity are my main goals along with a good bones lol and if I am really lucky nice big eyes colour is not that important you can put colour in down future generations lol but you have to have something as a base to start with lol believe me I have voiced my concern over the years but people don't listen its there choice at the end of the day but they are not gentle lol I have the scars to prove it lol take care bye for now
Bev
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2016 16:23:39 GMT -5
Yes, I have seen a few with over or under shot jaws too Do these angoras with abnormal nares and nasal planums ever get placed in shows? I see so many angoras with odd angled slits for nostrils  I don't know why I'm so surprised, I see this when people bring in their new pug or peke puppy and are SO chuffed. I'm always quite disturbed by the extremes in dog breeds. And I am always so happy to see a jack russel, collie or working labrador or spaniel. Good functional breeds ... yes they have their problems but essentially they're a good blueprint of a dog. |
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Post by crazylady on Jun 21, 2016 13:42:30 GMT -5
Hi Vicki Ann in some shows ( usually abroad ) there are separate classes for angoras I personally have never placed an angora as Best in show because I am at that show to judge a ferret show ( and an angora is not a true ferret ) it would not be capable of doing what a ferret is designed for which is hunting the coat would quickly tangle in undergrowth if it tried and breeding season in the wild it could not rear its young so they would die out so technically they are not designed to work and live as a true ferret or polecat people may think I am wrong but I look at all aspects of the animal a male ferret should have a broad head ( angoras do not ) the eyes should be large and sit correctly in the skull ( most angoras have small eyes ) the balance of the skull to the nose is judged by using the eye sockets using the T method you measure between the eyes - now turn it on its side it should end on the tip of the nose ( in angoras the nose is too long )so the skull shape is out of balance points are deducted for all these features angoras do win there own class but it is a specialist class designed just to have angoras you cannot judge an angora against a domesticated ferret or polecat as they totally different take care bye for now
Bev
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