Looking into starting a Raw diet Spike and Faye

[Deleted]

Thought I would post here in the correct area (I hope)! We got Spike and Faye about a weeka go and they are about 10 months old, come from owners who used to feed them Marshalls diet only. I have them on that kibble mixed with Natures Variety chicken with Raw boost but did some more research and didn't want the peas.

So I went ahead and got the Natures Variety Instinct Ultimate Protein Duck formula today since there were no peas compared to the other Natures Variety rawboost and Orijen cat and Kitten.



Ingredients here:http://www.instinctpetfood.com/product/instinct-grain-free-ultimate-protein-chicken-0

(This will be the secondary kibble)



I would like to order the Wysong Ferret Epigen 90 Digestive Heatlh for free feeding, and then use a commercial Raw for a while like Rad Cat Raw? Or today I met up with another member from here who uses Small Batch Raw regularly for her two
mixed with some raw egg yolk and salmon oil.


Rad Cat Raw: www.radfood.com/products
Free-Range Raw Chicken Cat Food Made with HPP'd chicken thighs and organs

Organic chicken thigh and leg meat, organic chicken heart, organic chicken liver, filtered water, powdered egg yolk, powdered eggshell, organic dulse, gelatin, organic psyllium husk powder, manganese gluconate.


Small Batch Raw: smallbatchpets.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/SmallBatchPet_21.jpg

97% turkey, 1% produce, 2% supplements

turkey, turkey necks, turkey backs, turkey livers, turkey hearts, turkey gizzards, salmon oil, organic dandelion greens, organic apple cider vinegar, organic kelp, organic bee pollen, organic barley grass, organic cranberries

Moisture (max): 71.6% Crude Protein (min): 16.4% Crude Fat (min): 7.7% Crude Fiber (max): 0.3% Ash (max): 2.5% Calcium (min): 0.3% Phosphorus (min): 0.3%

Approx. 37 kcal per slider

Cat sliders contain 48, 1oz. sliders (3 lbs.)



Does this look pretty good nutrition wise? I would love to treat them to whole prey on occasion and maybe do a full raw transition over the summer.

[Deleted]

I'm sorry that I did not notice this earlier.
Avoiding peas is very good. They have been linked to stones in ferrets.

Let me make a few note please: You'll want a variety of proteins and a high protein content.

The problem lies with the fillers. Ferrets lack a cecum which is used to process starches/grains/fruits and veggies. The filler stresses their little bodies and the end result becomes Insulinoma later in life.

I know you can't feed raw now and I know so little about kibble. I did feed FDR while I learned and switched. That simply is extremely expensive.

Radcat is a grind and alot of Ferrents feed grinds. I don't like the psyllium husk in it though.
If you do feed grinds then you will want to brush their teeth for them.

Wysong Epigen 90 use to be the only kibble that the forum recommended. Then their was a formula change and Ferrents began to report diarrhea. I don't know if that has been corrected.

I'm going to link the current MoreDooks food chart for you. It explains how to read the ingredients and ranks kibbles.
moredooks.herobo.com/search.php?chart=ferret

I'll look around for someone to offer you some advice on kibble and get back to you.

[Deleted]

Mar 4, 2016 15:53:09 GMT -5 @poncesmom said:

I'm sorry that I did not notice this earlier.
Avoiding peas is very good. They have been linked to stones in ferrets.

Let me make a few note please: You'll want a variety of proteins and a high protein content.

The problem lies with the fillers. Ferrets lack a cecum which is used to process starches/grains/fruits and veggies. The filler stresses their little bodies and the end result becomes Insulinoma later in life.

I know you can't feed raw now and I know so little about kibble. I did feed FDR while I learned and switched. That simply is extremely expensive.

Radcat is a grind and alot of Ferrents feed grinds. I don't like the psyllium husk in it though.
If you do feed grinds then you will want to brush their teeth for them.

Wysong Epigen 90 use to be the only kibble that the forum recommended. Then their was a formula change and Ferrents began to report diarrhea. I don't know if that has been corrected.

I'm going to link the current MoreDooks food chart for you. It explains how to read the ingredients and ranks kibbles.
moredooks.herobo.com/search.php?chart=ferret

I'll look around for someone to offer you some advice on kibble and get back to you.

I'm glad you mentioned that about the Rad Cat Raw! I was unaware of this. 

How does this commercial raw look as a complete diet? (adding in egg yolk and salmon oil)


Small Batch Raw: smallbatchpets.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/SmallBatchPet_21.jpg



97% turkey, 1% produce, 2% supplements



turkey, turkey necks, turkey backs, turkey livers, turkey hearts, turkey gizzards, salmon oil, organic dandelion greens, organic apple cider vinegar, organic kelp, organic bee pollen, organic barley grass, organic cranberries



Moisture (max): 71.6% Crude Protein (min): 16.4% Crude Fat (min): 7.7% Crude Fiber (max): 0.3% Ash (max): 2.5% Calcium (min): 0.3% Phosphorus (min): 0.3%



Approx. 37 kcal per slider



Cat sliders contain 48, 1oz. sliders (3 lbs.)



Read more: holisticferret60.proboards.com/post/292614/quote/20408#ixzz41yCrFDVk


I'm hoping by offering the commercial raw morning and evening that they won't even need the kibble but I figured it would be good to have as a back up.

[Deleted]

While I look for someone, perhaps you could take a look at this thread and consider going with all grinds:

holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/17099/commercial-grinds

[gfountain]

If I understand correctly, and please correct me if I'm wrong, you're talking about leaving kibble out all the time and then feeding commercial grinds as well. If you're going to feed grinds, what is the purpose of the kibble? Not trying to be antagonistic, just trying to understand the reason.

[Deleted]

Mar 4, 2016 16:13:28 GMT -5 gfountain said:

If I understand correctly, and please correct me if I'm wrong, you're talking about leaving kibble out all the time and then feeding commercial grinds as well. If you're going to feed grinds, what is the purpose of the kibble? Not trying to be antagonistic, just trying to understand the reason.

It was recommended to me from a local member as well as I read others also leave kibble in the cage as a back up and to provide variety. Or if you miss a meal with the raw you at least have the kibble they are used to?



My main concern is them not taking to the Commercial raw and becoming malnourished. I figure if I still provide a kibble then I know they will eat of they are hungry. 

[Deleted]

Mar 4, 2016 16:01:24 GMT -5 @poncesmom said:

While I look for someone, perhaps you could take a look at this thread and consider going with all grinds:

holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/17099/commercial-grinds

Awesome post! Thanks I will read through it

[Deleted]

I'm so glad that you brought them home. I also have 3 who's previous ferrents simply didn't have the time for them. They're so happy to have attention and love and they are such joy to have in our home.

I'd love to see you remove kibble entirely and go onto a grind or FDR until you're ready for a switch.
If you continue to offer kibble as a back up then they'll hold out for that since they've imprinted on their kibble. Plus it's like junk food. Put a plate of healthy food and a plate of junk food in front of a child and you know which one they will go for.

The Mentor/Moderator board is having a discussion now and working on finding ways to offer information for a good healthy path to new ferrents who are looking for a healthy alternative before they switch over to raw. That way we maintain our Holistic approach while giving others time to learn, enjoy the forum and make good decisions for a better quality diet.

[Deleted]

Mar 5, 2016 7:43:13 GMT -5 @poncesmom said:

I'm so glad that you brought them home. I also have 3 who's previous ferrents simply didn't have the time for them. They're so happy to have attention and love and they are such joy to have in our home.

I'd love to see you remove kibble entirely and go onto a grind or FDR until you're ready for a switch.
If you continue to offer kibble as a back up then they'll hold out for that since they've imprinted on their kibble. Plus it's like junk food. Put a plate of healthy food and a plate of junk food in front of a child and you know which one they will go for.

The Mentor/Moderator board is having a discussion now and working on finding ways to offer information for a good healthy path to new ferrents who are looking for a healthy alternative before they switch over to raw. That way we maintain our Holistic approach while giving others time to learn, enjoy the forum and make good decisions for a better quality diet.

Ahhh that makes sense! Yeah last night I even had a scare where Faye sounded like she was choking on Kibble


So I am able to use the mentor-ship even if I switch to a commercial raw for now? What's an FDR? Also How do I know how much Commercial raw they should eat a day, is it by their weight?



Thanks again.

[Deleted]

I'm glad Faye is okay. They're going to find alot of ways to frighten you so welcome to ferrenthood.

Usually when we mentor then it's about going to the Frankenprey program or Whole prey. I can ask katt about mentoring you on whole grind though. She runs the Mentoring program. I tagged her so let's see what she says.

FDR is Freeze Dried Raw. That's what I fed while I was learning about how to feed Frankenprey.
There are some good products out there like Stella and Chewy's for feline/ Whole Life and Wysong Archetypal 1.
The downside is that it's expensive and usually has to be ordered online.
It is raw though and should be treated as such. Handling it means washing your hands and using the same precautions as with any other raw product.

Freeze dried raw needs to be rehydrated unlike a commercial grind. 
You'll also want to brush their teeth since they aren't chewing on bone to clean their teeth.

I use FDR for treats and foraging fun plus I keep a bag for emergencies. It can make for a great way to feed them when you're traveling or someone is boarding or babysitting your ferrets when you're gone.

Feeding Frankenprey is less costly though and you have more choices when you shop. Variety is important since they need different animal proteins to get all their nutrients.

[Deleted]

Mar 6, 2016 8:41:02 GMT -5 @poncesmom said:

I'm glad Faye is okay. They're going to find alot of ways to frighten you so welcome to ferrenthood.

Usually when we mentor then it's about going to the Frankenprey program or Whole prey. I can ask katt about mentoring you on whole grind though. She runs the Mentoring program. I tagged her so let's see what she says.

FDR is Freeze Dried Raw. That's what I fed while I was learning about how to feed Frankenprey.
There are some good products out there like Stella and Chewy's for feline/ Whole Life and Wysong Archetypal 1.
The downside is that it's expensive and usually has to be ordered online.
It is raw though and should be treated as such. Handling it means washing your hands and using the same precautions as with any other raw product.

Freeze dried raw needs to be rehydrated unlike a commercial grind. 
You'll also want to brush their teeth since they aren't chewing on bone to clean their teeth.

I use FDR for treats and foraging fun plus I keep a bag for emergencies. It can make for a great way to feed them when you're traveling or someone is boarding or babysitting your ferrets when you're gone.

Feeding Frankenprey is less costly though and you have more choices when you shop. Variety is important since they need different animal proteins to get all their nutrients.

Ahhhhh that makes sense! Actually the Pet Food Express down the street sells Stella and Chewy's for feline Might be good to have. 

Yeah this upcoming summer I will have enough time home to make the raw transition but in the meantime the commercial would still be better than kibble. I fed the Rad Cat Raw with a little egg yolk and Salmon oil last night and Spike scarfed it down, Faye also ate some but not as much. I know it gives the amount to feed cats but I need to figure out portioning for them.

Also I did get the dental gel and a little tooth brush Brushing teeth is no problem, I work in a dog salon so I do it on pups all the time.

[Deleted]

The average grown male will eat 3-4 ounces in a day. The average grown female will eat 2-3 ounces.
Spring is coming and they eat less then.

It's hard to tell you exact amounts during a switch from kibble to a raw product. Usually once they begin to get those nutrients in them then they eat alot in the beginning. Spike and Faye are almost a year old so will eat less then a kit who is growing but more than the average since they're eating to make up for what they received on a kibble diet.

The best way to judge the amounts is to put out a certain amount and then see if there is any leftover. If the plate is clean then they could eat more. If the plate is still full then they want less.

I simply leave food out at all times. My five eat at different times and they usually show up for a snack during the daytime. Two of mine eat primarily at night.
A commercial grind should be fine left out for up to 12 hours. You can put out their breakfast in the morning and at dinnertime pick up their breakfast plate and put out a new plate for dinner.

When you order commercial grinds try to get at least 3 different varieties of animal protein.
Each animal offers different nutrients. You want a red meat meal for Iron and Vitamin B.
You don't want too much chicken because that's a common allergy/intolerance in ferrets.
Pork is nice and fatty and fat equals energy for ferrets.

So you work on pup's teeth. That's great and perhaps you could build a thread with tips for those looking to brush their ferret's teeth. It's not easy with those wiggleworms and they usually really don't like it.

[Deleted]

Mar 6, 2016 13:47:27 GMT -5 @poncesmom said:

The average grown male will eat 3-4 ounces in a day. The average grown female will eat 2-3 ounces.
Spring is coming and they eat less then.

It's hard to tell you exact amounts during a switch from kibble to a raw product. Usually once they begin to get those nutrients in them then they eat alot in the beginning. Spike and Faye are almost a year old so will eat less then a kit who is growing but more than the average since they're eating to make up for what they received on a kibble diet.

The best way to judge the amounts is to put out a certain amount and then see if there is any leftover. If the plate is clean then they could eat more. If the plate is still full then they want less.

I simply leave food out at all times. My five eat at different times and they usually show up for a snack during the daytime. Two of mine eat primarily at night.
A commercial grind should be fine left out for up to 12 hours. You can put out their breakfast in the morning and at dinnertime pick up their breakfast plate and put out a new plate for dinner.

When you order commercial grinds try to get at least 3 different varieties of animal protein.
Each animal offers different nutrients. You want a red meat meal for Iron and Vitamin B.
You don't want too much chicken because that's a common allergy/intolerance in ferrets.
Pork is nice and fatty and fat equals energy for ferrets.

So you work on pup's teeth. That's great and perhaps you could build a thread with tips for those looking to brush their ferret's teeth. It's not easy with those wiggleworms and they usually really don't like it.

Awesome advice! I'm going to order a scale to help out. I need to weight them regularly as well.

I'm wondering if it's okay to mix commercial grinds together to get the variety in there. I didn't know I could leave the food out for them Any problems with them digging in their food or getting the mess everywhere int he cage?

Thanks!

[Deleted]

I wouldn't mix the grinds until you have made sure that Spike and Faye have eaten each animal protein and not had any problems with allergies or intolerances to that animal.
If you mix them and you're seeing problems then it becomes harder to tell what animal is upsetting their stomach.
Chicken is a common allergy/intolerance while lamb is considered a hypoallergenic meat source.

Once you're satisfied that Spike and Faye can eat chicken or lamb or beef or the other animals without any problems then you could mix them.

I do have a question as to whether this would throw off the organ balance so I'm going to tag bitbyter and Celene to see whether they believe the organ balance could be affected if you mix grinds. I don't think it does but I want to make sure since I don't feed grinds.

I haven't heard back from Hurricanekatt yet as to how feeding grinds works with the Mentoring program. She's a medical student doing her residency and can get quite busy.

I've Mentored some older ferrets who had medical issues and we ended up doing grinds when they simply weren't able to handle bones so going with grinds shouldn't be a problem but I need her approval to know for sure.

They're likely to get messy and play with their food but that's part of being a ferret and ferrets are silly. As long as you keep their cages clean or their feeding dens clean then you're fine. It's just a little more work for you but they do love to make their Ferrents work for them, lol.

You're doing great at asking questions and working with Spike and Faye. Give yourself a pat on the back and hugs to them both.

:wave3:

[Celene]

Most grinds (and any grinds you would WANT to feed) are nutritionally balanced and therefore will not upset the overall balance of your diet. I feed grinds one day a week because it a) allows me to add greater variety as a local grind producer does proteins like elk, boar, reindeer, kangaroo, etc. that I wouldn't normally be able to acquire and b) keeps them used to eating a soft food in case on of them is ill and has troubles eating.

I actually made a chart on how to balance grinds with the frankenprey diet (can also be used to balance frankenprey with other "balanced" meals such as whole prey).

One warning would be not to overdo it - even though grinds can be "easier", many have vegetable matter in them which isn't a good thing. It also doesn't help with their teeth or jaw/neck muscles in the same way eating whole meats does.

Edited to add: I re-read through the thread and see that you want to do 100% commercial grinds. I would not mix the different ones in the same meal, it is better to do different proteins on different days so if a ferret does have a reaction to one then you can tell what is causing the problem.


It is important to make sure any commercial grind you feed is balanced. Ideally should be 10%-20% heart, 10% liver (or 5% liver 5% other organ which is less common in grinds), 10%-15% bone, and the remainder muscle meat.