Mariana's Switching Thread / Celene

[Heather]

Name: Mariana
HF Forum Username: mariana
Please confirm that you are 18 years of age or older: Yes

1. Where did you first learn about natural diets for ferrets?
Facebook and google

2. Please describe the type of diet you would like assistance in switching your ferret(s) to. Be sure to include if you are interested in feeding whole prey (live or frozen-thawed) and if you are wanting to FULLY switch to a natural diet or PARTIALLY. If you are unsure what kind of diet you want to put your ferrets on, please express that and we can help you find the best type of natural diet for your ferret.
Full raw diet, not sure yet if I'll be able to handle whole prey (maybe in the future)

3. Why are you interested in switching your ferrets to a natural diet?
To prevent deceases such as insulinoma

4. Do you understand that switching your ferret to a natural diet can be a lengthy, arduous process? Its not an overnight switch. It requires a commitment of several months at minimum. Your HF Mentor will be more then happy to assist you in switching your ferret(s) to a natural diet, but you need to be equally as committed. The switch takes time and effort every single day. It can also be extremely frustrating at times. If you aren't willing to tough out a potentially lengthy switching process, you have major life changes approaching (baby on the way, moving, starting school, getting married/divorced, etc), or limited time due to work, then it might be a better idea to wait on switching your ferret's diet until you have more time. Are you willing and realistically able to make the necessary time commitment?
Yes!

5. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names? Ages? Genders? Do they have any health problems? Are they overweight? Underweight? How long have you had each ferret for?
Currently only one (will be adopting one more in about a week)
Rino, male.He is about 4 to 4.5 years old (got him in July 2014, previous owner said he was 2.5 at the time)
He is not overweight, his weight last year was between 750 and 850 g depending on the season, he is currently about 960 due to winter.
I've had him for 1 year and 3 months now.
Rino has been diagnosed with Adrenal decease, he is currently receiving Lupron injections (he is still itching) and we are waiting for the implant to arrive.

6. What diet do you currently feed your ferrets? (Please include all treats, supplements, etc) Do they already eat some form of soup?
He is currently eating raw soup with small chunks added, in the am and pm (has not had kibble for a few days now and does not seem interested). (he is on day 8)
I give him freeze dried chicken and turkey breast (cat treats) and used to give him freeze dried beef liver (was not aware it should not be given often)
Gave him some FerretVite (liquid) about a month ago as he had a partial blockage and stopped eating, at the time I also gave him Furo Vite when trying to give him his meeds (still have both available but don't use them anymore).
I also give him one egg a week.

7. Have you ever tried to switch your ferrets to a natural diet in the past? If yes, what happened?
I wasn't well informed and as committed, I would give him small chunks but never really tried a transition.

8. What additional information about yourself or your ferrets would you like to share?
I love animals and I am totally in love with Rino. I work in the IT industry and some times have to travel for a few days but Rino loves my roomate too and does not seem to have a problem staying with him.
When I got Rino, he came with a mate (female) she had cancer and I did not know any better (previous owner did not mention it either) and she passed about 2 months later (very advanced adrenal and some other type of aggressive cancer - I did take her to the vet, got the adrenal test done and some lumps removed for biopsy, that's how we found out she had cancer). I did not see him grieve (except for one time when he made a whining sound when he smelled a blanket where she used to sleep) and her passing helped us bond more (he used to bite and not want to be held), now I am ready to get another mate for him as I really want him to have someone to play with.

He had a partial blockage about a month ago and it took about a week for the entire thing to come out, including barium twice. After that, he had a cough and xrays showing speckles in his lung so we treated with oral antibiotic which upset his stomach really badly and he was getting depressed/stressed due to bad taste of the med, we switched it to a single dose shot and tested his poop for blood (negative). The cough stopped, and all additional blood work came back fine, the entire thing lasted about 4 weeks... right after that, his activity level has been very low, he sleeps a lot but eats really well and drinks well to, so I think it is just winter, or he may be upset/bored that I took away his push toys (he was chewing and eating them) and 2 of his hiding spots as they were not safe.


9. How often during the week do you have access to a computer?
Daily

10. Please post a picture of each of your ferrets (if possible).
(not letting me post it here... will add in next post)

11. Have you met the requirements for this program? Are you at least 18 years of age? Do you have your scale, a place to access meats, hearts, livers, etc?
I do meet all requirements mentioned.


Hi and welcome to the mentoring program . In a little while your mentor ( Celene ), will introduce herself and you can get started on a new adventure in natural ferret care and diets. Please remember to post regularly (daily or as per arranged with your mentor) so that your mentor can assist you move along safely in this adventure. If you experience computer difficulties or are going to be away, please notify your mentor and most of all relax and have fun (dance) . Your mentor is here to help you on this journey.
ciao

[Celene]

Welcome @mariana !!

My name is Celene and I will be your mentor, helping you through your transition to raw! You can read a little more about me here.

To get us started, just a few questions:


I know you mentioned plans for getting Rino a playmate, have you gotten a new ferret(s), or are we just switching Rino? How is his health/adrenal, were you able to get him a Des implant?

Also, please post your menu for the current week:

Monday am:
Monday pm:

Tuesday am:
Tuesday pm:

Wednesday am:
Wednesday pm:

Thursday am:
Thursday pm:

Friday am:
Friday pm:

Saturday am:
Saturday pm:

Sunday am:
Sunday pm:

Are you feeding any other treats/supplements?

[Deleted]

Hello Celene

Thanks for taking the time to help me out! I am a bit stuck at this point with Rino's nutrition, although he is doing great!
I did get him a playmate but it didn't workout and I had to give her back to the shelter * Rino was too stressed out and getting depressed.

He has the implant now and his energy levels are back up and itchiness is gone yay!

He is really chubby now and his hair is amazing! here is his meals

At the moment, he is eating the same every day:

1.5 oz soup (turkey leg, chicken hearts and liver, egg shell)
1.2 oz rabbit chunks
Mixed up with water

--Once a week I will replace the rabbit chunks for pork kidney chunks

No other supplements but I give him freeze dried treats (chicken, turkey or salmon)

Cheers!
Mariana

[Celene]

I'm guessing the rabbit chunks are boneless? How big are they?

Have you adjusted the soupies recipe to account for the extra muscle meat mixed in? Heart and liver should each be 10% of the diet*, so if you are making the soupies recipe as is, and then "diluting" with muscle meat (rabbit), Rino is not getting enough heart, liver or calcium (eggshell). If you are making the recipe taking into account the extra muscle, then good job!


*Technically ferrets need a minimum of 10%, but exactly 10% liver, or 5% liver and 5% other organ.

Taurine (the main nutrient in hearts that is really important for ferrets) is water soluble meaning if they have lots of heart they will just pee out any extra taurine that their bodies don't need. Heart is considered a muscle meat and can be fed over and above the required 10%. If heart is not available for some reason, tongues and brains are also high in taurine as this amino acid is found in high concentrations in the muscles that are used most. All meat contains taurine, although animals that are kept in a pen and don't run much like rabbits are waayy lower in it.

Eventually, instead of "10% liver" we will aim for 5% liver and 5% other organ such as kidney, brain, pancreas, etc. But straight liver is fine in the short-term and much easier for recipe purposes. It's great that you're feeding Rino kidneys though! Liver is full of many vitamins and important nutrients, although in particular it is VERY high in Vitamin A. Ferrets do need Vitamin A, although unlike taurine any excess actually builds up in their system and can cause toxicity if eaten in large amounts. That's why the liver/organ requirement is an exact amount and not a minimum.


Have you tried feeding Rino rabbit chunks on their own, and if so, what happens? One good way to introduce chunks on their own is to slice them long and thin (like, say, a bobby pin shape), although I wouldn't go much smaller than whatever size you put in the soupies. Then dip/coat one end in a yummy treat such as salmon oil, egg yolk, or even just soupies and hand feed it!

For now, my plan for Rino looks something like this:

Phase 1: Wean Rino off soupies, by slowly increasing the amount of chunks, and decreasing the amount of soupies.
In order to maintain a balance, we will follow a pseudo-frankenprey menu, meaning some meals will be heart chunks, some will be liver chunks, some rabbit, and eventually he will end up following the frankenprey menu, but with just little pieces and eggshell powder instead of bone. You can read more about the frankenprey menu here, but I will also go into more detail in my next post.
At the end of this stage, Rino will be on a frankenprey menu, but just with small pieces/chunks (whatever he will eat), sprinkled with eggshell powder for the "bone-in" meals.



Phase 2: Increase the chunk sizes to at least the size of a finger joint. Big enough so that each piece requires a small amount of chewing and can't just be swallowed whole.

Phase 3: Introduce bone.
The easiest bones to start with are smaller ones such as rabbit ribs, quail wing tips, etc.
By the end of this stage, Rino will be following a full/proper frankenprey menu.

Phase 4: Increase the size of chunks/bone and the variety of proteins.
Even after eating raw, ferrets will often be picky about new types of meat, so sometimes introducing new proteins need to be treated as a sort of "mini-switch" on their own. Ferrets need a minimum of 3-4 different proteins per week, including on that is high in iron and other vitamins such as red meats (beef, lamb, duck, etc.)


Don't worry if this sounds overwhelming/like a lot right now! I just wanted to give you a general idea of the path we'll be taking, although each ferret is different so some "phases" might get mushed together (like increase chunk sizes and add bone at the same time), or we may even end up needing to take a completely different approach

[Celene]

Just checking in - how are things going?

At this early point in the switch it would be great if you could check in at least every second day, even if it's a brief update.

[Deleted]

Hello Celene

Thanks for the detailed plan, it does sound overwhelming but I am excited!

I adjusted the soup only for eggshell (I added more) but I didn't add more heart or liver as I wasn't sure... The chunks right now are small, I was increasing the size and reducing the soup but I had to travel and we had to take a step back to keep him eating raw. He is eating what I feed him just fine, even if I switch the chunks to ground beef or lamb, as long as it is mixed with the soup.

I can probably change the recipe for the next batch of soup to be 5% kidney 5% liver, the one I have will last me for another week at least hehe.

So for Phase 1, I should be prepared with liver and hearts to compliment the soup, correct? I will include those in my groceries list for this weekend and set the target to start this on Monday? I have some frozen ones actually so I could start introducing him to that since I am running low on rabbit, I know he will eat anything as long as I add more water to the soupy mix... he seems to like "drinking" his food.


Here a pic of my chunky monkey

[Celene]

He is a cute boy!

With the chunks in the soup, are any of them big enough that he has to do a little chewing, or are they small enough that he can just slurp them back? The trick is to get him to make the switch from "drinking" his food to "eating" it.

The menu will look something like this:

Monday am: Chicken slivers in soup
Monday pm: Rabbit slivers in soup

Tuesday am: Turkey slivers in soup
Tuesday pm: Beef slivers in soup

Wednesday am: Lamb slivers in soup
Wednesday pm: heart slivers in soup

Thursday am: Rabbit slivers in soup
Thursday pm: Turkey slivers in soup

Friday am: Beef slivers in soup
Friday pm: ½ heart + ¼ liver + ¼ other organ in soup

Saturday am: Chicken slivers in soup
Saturday pm: Rabbit slivers in soup

Sunday am: Lamb slivers in soup
Sunday pm: ½ liver + ½ other organ in soup

• The proteins don't need to be those exact ones or in that order, that was just an example

• With each meal sprinkle in extra eggshell powder. There's not "exact amount" as it depends on the proportion of chunks, but the general "rule" is if his poops are too soft/liquid increase the amount of eggshell powder. If they are too hard (or even crusty and white) decrease the eggshell powder. This goes for bone in the future too.
  
  
•  Increase the size of slivers/chunks at whatever pace Rino is comfortable with. In general, ferrets are usually quicker to accept pieces of meat that are long and thin/narrow rather than cube shaped.

        This is the size I started with:

        

        Which I later increased to:

(I cut these by using a veggie peeler on frozen meat which I let thaw slightly)

    You can also cut them more spaghetti-shaped.

• Rather than cutting and weighing organs, you can also make an "organ soup" made up of 50% heart, 25% liver and 25% kidney which you feed 3 meals per week (this works out to 1.5 meals of heart and 1.5 meals of liver/organ). This part is up to you.

PS - Starting Monday is fine, and no worries about taking a step or two back in and there! It happens. The trick is to not step back when it means giving into a stubborn ferret, as you are training them that they "win" and get their own way if they just hold out and don't eat

[Deleted]

Hello Celene,


Thank you for the menu!

I will get the beef and lamb, I didn't see this early enough to get it before going grocery shopping, I will stay away from chicken meat because it was giving him stomach problems even though he liked it.

the chunks I chop are about half the size of a pinkie nail, probably about the size you showed in the 1st picture

When you say Lamb slivers in soup ... does this mean just the meat slivers in water with the egg shell? or mix the slivers with the soup (forum recipe) ?? up until today I mix the slivers with the soup recipe from the forum and add more water at the time I serve it.

Thanks!
-Mariana

[Celene]

Yup, just mix slivers with the forum soup recipe! Each time add less water, and slowly increase the size and amount of the slivers. Once a significant portion of the mix is slivers, you will need to add extra eggshell powder to keep it balanced.

[Celene]

Hi! I was just wondering how things are going with you

Please also let me know in detail what Rino is eating, what size slivers, what ratio of soupies, etc.

[Deleted]

Hello Celene,

I think we are doing great!, I increased the slivers to a 1.5 vs .5 soup ratio, I still add some water and now the eggshell powder on top, he is eating very well and if I mix beef with rabbit, he doesn't notice, however the one day I tried to give him just beef with the soup, he vomited half his food (may not be related).

Sorry I haven't replied for a while but I just moved and was a crazy week with all the packing and unpacking (still working on it) and now I am focusing on trying to get Rino to adapt to this new place where he has no hiding spots at the moment but he is doing ok.

Poops look normal, I have not seen a change on them, if anything, they look a bit smaller some times.

-Mariana

[Celene]

Sometimes ferrets will vomit if they eat too quickly, but if you have an issue in the future with Rino puking when eating beef, he may be allergic to it so I would keep an eye out for that.

Do you mean it's 1.5 parts slivers and .5 soup, or the other way around?

[Deleted]

Hello!

I have been mixing the beef with the rabbit slivers and he has not puked again, so maybe he ate too quickly that day.

And yes, 1.5 slivers vs .5 soup. I will try to find other proteins to try this week, I don't like introducing him to different proteins at once because he refuses to eat.

Cheers!
-Mariana

[Celene]

Since the bulk of his meals is now slivers, have you been giving extra heart/liver slivers or soupies to maintain the balance?

Also I know you said you've backed off the chicken, but is he still getting turkey?

[Deleted]

I include a heart here and there with the mix.
The soup base is turkey

-Mariana