|
Post by Celene on Oct 15, 2016 11:31:34 GMT -5
Oh no, good luck to Koi!! Thankfully adrenal is very manageable with the deslorlin implant. I don't think dog food is harder than other kibble, it's just very bad nutritionally for ferrets (in particular it is usually much higher in vegetable matter and does not contain nearly enough taurine as dogs do not need as much in their diet (they are able to synthesize their own). I guess we can wait and see if some of the dental issues are reversed (tartar/staining can be removed, translucency/clarity in teeth cannot). Here is a photo of my boy Ziggy's teeth after 3 weeks of eating bones. For now it is REALLY important that the ferrets go straight onto a balanced diet (I can't tell from your partial menu as it does not include a whole week, so I want you to follow this menu daily: Mon AM: Bone-in Meat Mon PM: Organ (50% heart, 25% liver, 25% other organ) Tues AM: Bone-in Meat Tues PM: Muscle Meat Weds AM: Bone-in Meat Weds PM: Organ (50% heart, 25% liver, 25% other organ) Thur AM: Bone-in Meat Thur PM: Bone-in Meat Fri AM: Muscle Meat Fri PM: Bone-in Meat Sat AM: Organ (50% heart, 25% liver, 25% other organ) Sat PM: Bone-in Meat Sun AM: Muscle Meat Sun PM: Bone-in Meat Up to 3 of the bone-in meals can be replaced with muscle meat + bonemeal powder until you receive the Hare Today order. Did they give you an estimated delivery date? Your kits NEED a balanced diet right now, particularly including not only heart, but also liver and another organ. It is very dangerous for their growing bodies to be without, and can cause very serious health issues (vision problems, organs damage, etc.) Your Hare Today order looks great! One thing I would consider leaving out in the future is boneless rabbit. It is much more useful as a bone-in meal, as there are endless, easily available muscle meats (beef, pork, lamb, venison, duck all other large animals, etc.) to provide variety. One thing to note is that rabbit is relatively low in taurine, so it shouldn't be relied upon as a bone-in meat any more than chicken. That's why we feed a variety of different meats so the different nutritional profiles balance each other out! In regards to the gullet and lung - these do NOT count as organs as they do not secrete hormones. You can feed them as muscle meals though. Here is our page on organ meals.I also noticed you've bought whole prey (the mice) and whole grinds which contain bone and organ. I have actually made a chart which explains how to balance the frankenprey menu with "whole" meals such as balanced grinds and whole prey. You can find that here.PS - is it you or a ferret who was having seizures? Either way, I hope everyone is okay!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2016 20:49:03 GMT -5
I have an appointment to vet Koi tomorrow at 2pm. I'll post when I get back home, hopefully with some answers. Okay, I can get pictures in a few weeks now that they're eating more bone. Not yet, just ordered last night. They say they ship out Mon-Wed and I'm a 3 day transit, so I would guess Friday. I'll spend tomorrow cutting up the meats I got recently and making organ soupies, that should help a lot. The kits are a lot more to manage for this. I was thinking about using the gullet for duck soup. It said it was good as an anti-inflammatory, figured it could help. And the lung sounded good for training treats. Awesome, thank you! I had the seizures from some medication I'm on. It's a really unforgiving antidepressant and I get it at a university pharmacy that has extremely limited hours. You can break your leg at 8am and they won't even try to get the pharmacist there before noon, you have to wait. And if something happens on a weekend or after 4pm, you have to wait even longer. I actually have to take the entire day off work just to pick up medication, and I wasn't able to do that this week. Trying to find another pharmacy that will bill online so this doesn't happen again.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2016 20:54:28 GMT -5
(I'll just keep editing this post to update their meals so it's all in one place)
Saturday AM: Heart chunks, muscle (?) Saturday PM: Lamb chunks, muscle Sunday AM: Heart chunks, 6 oz, muscle Sunday PM: Chicken wings, bone Monday AM: Chicken wings & gizzards, bone Monday PM: Pork w/ bone meal, bone (no adverse effects yet, no vomiting)
HT order gets here Thursday!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2016 16:33:00 GMT -5
Just got home from the vet. Not sure what to think. I had to see the other vet in the clinic because the normal one wasn't there. This vet doesn't think it's adrenal because she can't feel anything, and doesn't want to do any other tests for it. She thinks it's a food allergy and said I should change all the ferrets over to a hypoallergenic cat food for 2 months minimum to see if it gets better, and "not a drop of anything else." She thinks the hair loss is just because of getting older, and that it's common in older ferrets. But when I asked some questions about food allergies, like symptoms (I've seen Koi vomit pork right after eating, just thought it was eating too fast), she said that I should be feeding them less and that "pork is mostly fat so you don't want to be feeding them that"...
I did have them run a test on her stool and a BG. Stool was negative and BG is 105, so nothing there...
Should I try cutting out pork for a few months and give her melatonin (vet gave me the dose I need)? Any thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by Celene on Oct 17, 2016 11:46:43 GMT -5
Firstly, I will address the allergy: I do have experience with food allergies in ferrets, although I have never heard of hair loss as a symptom. Does Koi vomit pork EVERY time she eats it, or only sometimes? If it's only occasionally, it's probably her eating too fast (which is common with a "favourite" protein - my girls always eat duck gizzards too fast so I have to give them in large chunks so it takes longer to eat and there's no puking). If Koi pukes up EVERY TIME she eats pork, then it's probably an allergy. I've never heard of fur loss as a symptom of food allergies, mostly ferret food intolerances show up in a couple ways. - IBD (Inflammatory Bowel Disease) and related symptoms which initially include bad poops (diarrhea, blood or mucous in poop, seedy, etc.), and if left untreated tooth grinding, weight loss, ulcers, etc. This is the MOST COMMON way that food allergies present themselves. - Acute/immediate reactions, which include vomiting and also symptoms similar to food allergies in humans (red or swollen lips/mouth/tongue, difficulty breathing, immediate itchiness, etc.) This is less common, although I did have a mentee whose ferret would immediately puke up ANY protein that had feathers (chicken, turkey, duck, quail, etc.) along with IBD symptoms described above. I wouldn't rule it out without some further observance/care, however, pork allergies are not very common in ferrets (most common are chicken and beef). As for pork being high in fat, that's absolutely ridiculous. Obviously some cuts are fattier than others, but it is BY NO STRETCH "mostly fat" unless you're feeding them pork belly or something that actually is mostly fat. Besides, ferrets NEED fat (they use it for energy like humans use carbs), and most commercial kibbles are at least 20% fat. In regards to adrenal: Most of the time, adrenal tumors can't actually be felt by hand unless the disease has progressed very far, and it's important to treat adrenal BEFORE it gets to this point, to improve your ferret's quality of life. Adrenal is generally diagnosed based on symptoms alone. Ferrets do not just naturally start balding as they get older unless they have adrenal gland disease. Koi is still relatively young. While it may be true that a 7-8+ year old elderly ferret may show overall thinning hair, it would not just happen at the base of the tale all of a sudden. Initial signs of adrenal include: - Hair loss (often starts at base of tail) - Behavioural changes (Excessive grooming of self or other ferrets, including ear sucking, sexual aggression) - Swollen vulva - Excessive scratching and itchiness, especially between the shoulder blades Advanced signs of adrenal include: - Loss of appetite - Lethargy - Papery thin or translucent looking skin, sometimes with sores from scratching - Weakness in back legs - usually seen in advanced or extreme cases. - Increased thirst, increased urination. - Weight loss due to a decrease in muscle mass, but with a pot bellied appearance Melatonin can help with some of the symptoms of adrenal, but is by no means an effective treatment. The absolute most effective treatment for adrenal in ferrets is the Deslorelin Acetate implant. Most owners choose to get their ferrets implanted at the absolute first sign of adrenal, as it has no side effects/drawbacks in healthy ferrets, and will dramatically slow the progression of the disease and reverse any symptoms. Many ferret owners even implant their ferrets before any signs of adrenal as a preventative measure. I would definitely recommend getting a second opinion from a vet with good ferret knowledge/experience. I am also tagging katt as she knows much more about adrenal than I do How is everything else going, are the kits eating more bone yet? Were you able to get some organs for soupies? Save
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2016 13:34:26 GMT -5
I'll get pictures of her hair loss and such tonight to see what you think about it. I want a second opinion, but I also don't want to put her through another vet appointment while she's not feeling well if it's obvious symptoms of something common. If it looks like adrenal, I'll go to the vet I was referred to for the implant (I asked about kits getting the chemical castration), they seem to have more ferrets going there anyway. When a biter doesn't put up a fight to a blood draw, there's a problem... And a see she's itching between her shoulder blades. :/ Yes, more bone! They now only leave the largest bone and part of the second largest. Aya goes straight for the joints. Hare Today order ships out today, I can check the tracking number after it updates at 5pm. I'll feed pork tonight after work and watch her closely. I get them pork chop cuts usually, or sirloin. So unless they're making pork chops out of fat now, I kinda doubt it. That's what I was thinking. Hair loss is common because adrenal is common, because most ferrets here are Marshall's and inbred from just a few original ferrets, and fixed surgically, both of which could cause adrenal at high rates... Also, lack of nutrition in "ferret food" most people feed them. Another thing she said that bothered me was that if it was insulinoma, I shouldn't bring her in until her back legs give out completely in an episode, and that her BG would have to be 30 to have that... Pretty sure 70 was the line to "be sure" they have it. Will update tonight with pictures and a list of everything I notice.
|
|
|
Post by katt on Oct 17, 2016 20:54:37 GMT -5
Just got home from the vet. Not sure what to think. I had to see the other vet in the clinic because the normal one wasn't there. This vet doesn't think it's adrenal because she can't feel anything, and doesn't want to do any other tests for it. She thinks it's a food allergy and said I should change all the ferrets over to a hypoallergenic cat food for 2 months minimum to see if it gets better, and "not a drop of anything else." She thinks the hair loss is just because of getting older, and that it's common in older ferrets. But when I asked some questions about food allergies, like symptoms (I've seen Koi vomit pork right after eating, just thought it was eating too fast), she said that I should be feeding them less and that "pork is mostly fat so you don't want to be feeding them that"... I did have them run a test on her stool and a BG. Stool was negative and BG is 105, so nothing there... Should I try cutting out pork for a few months and give her melatonin (vet gave me the dose I need)? Any thoughts? What? I'm sorry but ferrets do NOT lose fur as a part of normal aging, and you typically wouldn't feel a tumor on the adrenal glands until the disease is very advanced. The last thing I want to do is sound like I am bashing on a vet, and this vet may be wonderful with dogs or cats or birds or reptiles for all I know, but it sounds very much to me like this vet is not well experienced with ferrets and is likely also working off of outdated information. There is no good test for adrenal disease - the only test is the Tennessee panel and it is ridiculously expensive and has a super high rate of false negatives. It's very unreliable an not at all worth the money (don't let anyone push you into getting it in other words - huge waste). Adrenal disease in ferrets is primarily diagnosed by symptoms and response to treatment. Here is an article explaining adrenal disease as well as the treatments, and why each treatment does/does not work: holisticferretforum.com/health/adrenal-disease/Melatonin does NOT treat adrenal disease - it simply helps with fur regrowth. If you give melatonin without actually treating the DISEASE underneath, you are allowing the disease process to continue to progress unchecked while masking the cosmetic symptom only. This is bad. Also, oral melatonin is extremely difficult to use properly. It has to be given at precisely the same time every day, about 6-9 hours after sunrise. Most people don't have the ability to do this if they work or have school or other obligations. Regardless it only masks a symptom, it does not in any way treat the disease. Think of melatonin as putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound. It might look prettier for a little bit, but you didn't actually fix the hole and stop the bleeding.Fur thinning and loss, particularly starting at the hind end or between the shoulder blades is one of THE most prevalent symptoms of adrenal disease. The way to diagnose adrenal is to TREAT it. Lupron injections (monthly) or the Des implant (every 6 months) are the treatments of choice. The implant is better and tends to be more cost effective, and more effective. These treatments actually help to slow the progression of the disease, unlike melatonin. If you give Des and your fuzz doesn't improve - NO HARM DONE. Now they have a preventive implant and are better protected. If they do improve then you have your 110% diagnosis. [The implant takes up to 8 weeks to start working]. As a VERY important side note - for whatever reason "IBD" symptoms and Adrenal Disease often seem to go hand in hand in ferrets, and treating the adrenal disease often helps drastically with the "IBD." I cannot count how many times I have seen a ferret with IBD suddenly improve drastically after their adrenal disease was treated. That includes my own ferret Koda. It took us a year of different medications, supplements, food trials, etc and we could not get his IBD under control. We treated his adrenal disease and suddenly, magically, his IBD came under control. He still has flares, but we can actually keep him under control most of the time with simply diet. And in the 7 years I have been a part of this forum I have seen this same thing happen in countless other peoples' ferrets. Adrenal disease is stressful on the body - you get increases in sex hormones and often endogenous cortisols too, which significantly reduce the body's immune system. If the cortisol balance in the body is out of whack too, that can also CAUSE diarrhea (while we don't see this touted as a classic adrenal disease symptom, adrenal disease and IBD go hand-in-hand SO much in ferrets and improve together with treatment of the adrenal, that one can't help but wonder if we are actually seeing "IBD" or are in fact seeing a more abstract symptom of adrenal dysfunction ). I would find another vet and push hard for Des.RE the food suggestion....find another vet is my suggestion. The hypoallergenic prescription food is expensive and belongs in the dump with pretty much every other kibble. Have you ever looked at the ingredient list on these things? I'll use the most common brand in the US as example. The Hills/Science Diet cat food. The z/d line is for animals with food allergies. www.hillspet.com/en/us/products/pd-feline-zd-cannedCYSTEINE in pet food has been linked to kidney stones. It's a big deal. Just take a look at this thread here... holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/20966/kidney-bladder-stones-related-dietAlso, fat is GOOD for ferrets. Obviously there is a such thing as too much, but unlike humans who primarily utilize glucose for energy, ferrets are obligate carnivores - their primary source of fuel is fat. They NEED fat to stay healthy. If your ferret is not overweight and isn't pooping out undigested fat (pale, bulky, smelly, foamy, slimy poops) then I would not at all worry about feeding too much fat. It is good for their fur, skin, brains, and overall healthy function. (Same goes for us humans - too much OR too little is a bad thing - carnivores need more than humans). Vomiting CAN be due to an allergy. It can also be due to eating too fast. Feeding larger chunks can slow down their pace of eating by forcing them to tear and chew their food. If your ferrets are not overweight, you are not overfeeding them. Ferrets fed on a balanced raw diet will self regulate their intake. Yes, sometimes they DO overeat and become fat and then you have to regulate their food amount, but this is the exception not the rule.
|
|
|
Post by katt on Oct 17, 2016 21:05:58 GMT -5
I'll get pictures of her hair loss and such tonight to see what you think about it. I want a second opinion, but I also don't want to put her through another vet appointment while she's not feeling well if it's obvious symptoms of something common. If it looks like adrenal, I'll go to the vet I was referred to for the implant (I asked about kits getting the chemical castration), they seem to have more ferrets going there anyway. When a biter doesn't put up a fight to a blood draw, there's a problem... And a see she's itching between her shoulder blades. :/ That's what I was thinking. Hair loss is common because adrenal is common, because most ferrets here are Marshall's and inbred from just a few original ferrets, and fixed surgically, both of which could cause adrenal at high rates... Also, lack of nutrition in "ferret food" most people feed them. Another thing she said that bothered me was that if it was insulinoma, I shouldn't bring her in until her back legs give out completely in an episode, and that her BG would have to be 30 to have that... Pretty sure 70 was the line to "be sure" they have it. Will update tonight with pictures and a list of everything I notice. These both point me even further towards adrenal. As we say in medicine - common things are common. Fur loss, itching, decreased energy in an adult ferret....FIRST thing anyone should think of is adrenal disease. [quote author="@booker" source="/post/308378/thread" timestamp="1476729266" Another thing she said that bothered me was that if it was insulinoma, I shouldn't bring her in until her back legs give out completely in an episode, and that her BG would have to be 30 to have that... Pretty sure 70 was the line to "be sure" they have it. [/quote] I'm picking my jaw up off the floor over here. Please find another vet. Waiting until your ferret is crashing is dangerous. A BG under 70 is DIAGNOSTIC of insulinoma. Every vet I have worked with (which is several) ALWAYS checks a BG on any ferret, REGARDLESS of whether they are showing ANY symptoms because you want to catch it and treat it as early as humanly possible. Low BG is very, very dangerous in any animal.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2016 23:57:19 GMT -5
I have a vet in mind that was highly recommended on here. It's a 2.5 hour drive, but I was going to ask if they would take pictures as an initial consult of sorts, and plan for an implant right away. If I can't get something to work with them, there's a vet in my area that sounds like they get more ferrets and should have Des implants. Even if I don't end up choosing them as a new vet, it would get Koi the implant and hopefully on her way to recovery. I'm also sending these pictures to a family friend currently going to university to be an exotic pet vet, and he's had ferrets before. If nothing else, he might know a prof that knows an adequate amount about ferrets and has additional input. Just kinda pissed that I wasted time and money to put more stress on Koi when she obviously feels bad. Any vet that has seen a healthy ferret could tell this isn't "normal"... click image upload The pictures of the base of her tail show her white winter fuzz, and everything inside that "circle" is down to skin. I tried to get angles to show how short the fur is. Other symptoms are itching (mainly around shoulders, neck, stomach, and back legs), back legs wobbly, lethargic, eating less, swollen nipples and puffy surrounding area (bottom two, mostly her left side nipple, which is also slightly hard/crusty), one large sore next to anus and a second small sore nearby on underside of tail (both pictured), not biting or playful as much (I'm attributing this to lethargy. she's never been the first one to sleep when let out of the cage before). Nothing else comes to mind. I haven't noticed her grooming others more, but the others are definitely grooming her a lot more. Booker will lick her neck/ears lots and follow her around, but not sure if that's anything. He seems to do that when he's worried though, like when Pocky would scratch around in the area under the cabinet he got stuck in a while ago.
|
|
|
Post by katt on Oct 18, 2016 0:35:57 GMT -5
Did the vet do any bloodwork to look for infection etc? The thinning on the hips and tail looks adrenal to me. The stomach may be rubbing if she drags her belly (which could potentially account for the red nipples too depending on how she drags). Not sure what to think of the sores and weak hind end though, those are definitely very concerning. I wonder if she doesn't have multiple issues going on here - adrenal and something else. I think we should call on Heather and maja01 on this one. I would just call the other clinic and ask them to order des and schedule an appt for it. I would implant her either way personally, but I wouldn't rule out a second problem at this point either. I will add that making sure her diet is TOTALLY balanced is going to also be really key. I know you've had some difficulties the last few months but I would really work hard and follow your Mentor's suggestions RE diet very closely, and keep the feedback loop open by filling her in on everything you are feeding. That way you can work as a team to get it figured out. Nutrition imbalances can cause serious issues, and if you have a ferret who is sick they need that balance even more so - they body needs proper nutrients to fight to stay strong against whatever disease processes are happening. I don't say this to make you feel bad, but to really encourage you to work with Celene to get the balance done really well from here on out to give your baby girl the best chance at recovery. ETA: What are her IBD symptoms? Has she had much diarrhea and/or vomiting? If she's having trouble absorbing nutrients that can cause some serious malnourishment issues. Which could potentially explain the sores and weak hind end/muscle wasting. And would contribute to fur loss too for that matter but given her age and the location of fur loss I DO still suspect that adrenal is likely at play (I mean really any mill ferret should get implanted regardless IMO). I went back to your original sign up post and it sounds like she has always been underweight? Has she ever been on prednisone or other meds for IBD? I do still think a second veterinary opinion is a good idea. I have a really hard time with a vet who won't treat insu until the ferret is crashing...
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 0:54:13 GMT -5
Nope, she didn't even want to do the BG or fecal, I had to request them specifically. :/ The weakness could be lethargy, she's generally kinda wobbly when she wakes up, before she stretches. It just hasn't gone away after stretching recently. The sore has been there for over a month and it hasn't healed, but not sure how long cuts usually take to heal. I would guess either imbalanced diet or continually breaking it and reintroducing bacteria when she chews at it to scratch. Either way, diet will help... She's 4 years and 3 months.
My order is supposed to be here Thursday, so they'll be able to have a greater variety of protein. But I understand the importance of getting it balanced ASAP, I need to try harder.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 1:10:41 GMT -5
Her poop looks normal, the only thing I've noticed is throwing up ONCE from pork. It was a chunk covered in white foam. I figured she ate too fast and swallowed too much in a single bite. I was giving her slippery elm too frequently during the last week in July but I stopped when Celene said that was a bad idea and explained. She's always been smaller, yeah, but not sure if it's ever been considered underweight. I never weighed her before joining this forum. :/ No meds, no problems before. Brought her to the vet a year ago, but that was bacterial overload from adjusting to raw, and it cleared up quickly with the antibiotics, followed up with probiotics.
Yeah, so many things about what she said bothered me... And her actions too, I guess. Her first reaction to seeing Koi was to immediately put her arms around and "hug" her, and put her face on top of her. So Koi was on the table, had arms blocking every direction along the table, and a face blocking any escape upwards... If that makes sense... It's hard to describe. But you don't hold an animal tight and stick your face in their face the first time you meet them.
|
|
|
Post by katt on Oct 18, 2016 2:19:54 GMT -5
Ah ok, no-diarrhea is good. I saw IBD and allergies mentioned so was concerned that diarrhea and/or vomiting might be a contributing issue. I thought your sign up post said she was underweight, but maybe I read wrong. And the vomiting does sound like she may have eaten too fast or even swallowed wrong. We've all had food go "down the wrong pipe" before. I would definitely make balancing her diet and getting her implanted the top priorities. For calling the new vet ask them to order the implant in advance if possible. Also to further reinforce - poop happens, life happens. We all have our moments. What matters is you clearly love your babies and are back on board with your mentor to work on getting their diet straightened out. That in itself is a big step and victory. It is easy to be hard on ourselves, so I like to always remind people - don't forget to applaud yourself for the good you are doing. I'm glad to see you are getting things back on track, keep up the great work - you are in the best of hands with Celene. (dance) (dance)
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 2:51:51 GMT -5
Allergies and such were the vet's idea, not based on anything substantial, only that I feed them raw. The rest was my attempt to think of "symptoms" based on the "diagnosis" Thank you for the help and quick responses!
|
|
|
Post by maja01 on Oct 18, 2016 7:22:36 GMT -5
Hi. My 5 cents ... From the pictures and the clinical signs you describe, I would bet on adrenal too. Itchiness, thining hair, bald spots and enlarged vulva (slightly, but it is enlarged - this is what we usually observe in adrenal females, they rarely, at least here, get the "heat enlarged" vulva when adrenal) are common clinical signs of adrenal. I would go with DES implant and good clinical exam at ferret knowledgable vet. At 4 years I would suggest to also do a CBC and at least basic biochemistry parameters. At least this is what we do over here with ferrets at this age. And of course, ballance the menue - Celen will help you with that, and all otheres are here around if needed I am glad kits don't have any parasites, but preventive treatment was a good idea As far as their brownish teeth are concerned - most probbaly is discolouration from poor nutrition in their past (and their mom's. I would not worry it is just visible "mistake" and if this is all they got away with - they are lucky and is ok. It will not go away, but all other possible imbalances will be ok with proper diet. Just follow Celene's instructions and "be good" with writing up menues (this is the only way she can correct it if neccessary).
|
|