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Post by Heather on Oct 8, 2016 17:52:55 GMT -5
I've kinda phased chicken wings out a fair amount because of the kits. Even when I crush the bone in the wing tip, they don't seem to be able to chew it. Not sure if it's jaw strength or something with their teeth... But they are experts at picking every bit of meat off the bone, it's licked clean.
**please just smash up the bones so these kits are getting bone in meat. Kits can eat bone since they're 3/4 weeks old. There is no excuse for them not eating bone. This is very serious. If they're cleaning up the bone then smash the bone and cut it up. Bonemeal is not acceptable for either ferrets and definitely not kits. Kits need at least 9 bone in meals a week, possibly more depending on stools as they should be fed 4x a day until they're 5 months of age when you can back off to 3x a day.
***Until these kits have been vetted they should not be placed with your business. Considering their previous care, mites and other possible issues from poor husbandry are too possible. Coccidia comes to mind and also other parasites and worms. Vetting should be done ASAP as you also need to find out if these kits have tooth or jaw issues (lack of bone eating?) Buying or acquiring kits from a BYB can raise all sorts of expensive and heartbreaking issues. The kit with the closed ear, sounds like a cauliflower ear, usually because someone has sucked or chewed and punctured the nerves in the earl This is permanent but the vet needs to see the ear to confirm and limit the damage. ciao
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2016 4:14:37 GMT -5
The two posts are on different pages, so I'll post twice tonight.
They have not been vetted. I'm working on finding a new vet with more experience. The one I went to for Koi suggested kibble because it was "easier and doesn't cause bacterial overload" and couldn't tell me anything other than the bacteria being cocci. She couldn't understand why I would feed raw, and when I mentioned that a lot of the ferret foods are based on a mink diet, she said that it was fine since they're in the same family. Yeah, I don't think a wolf would do very well on Purina, so that means nothing. :/
Will vet as soon as I find one. I believe there was an amazing one in Duluth, but that's a bit of a drive, like 3 hours. Don't want to keep them in a kennel for 6 hours... I'll keep you updated.
I haven't noticed any mites and ears are clean.
Is it normal for kits to eat a pound of meat in one day? Yesterday they had a pound of beef. I lay out food and let them eat as needed (except organs, that goes bad fast). Is it better to feed on a schedule?
I'll try crushing/mixing the bone for the next wing meal. Can do that today. I haven't been measuring, but I'll do that from now on.
Will get pictures of the ear and teeth later today.
Since I need to modify their meals based on your suggestions, I'll post the meals each day. I guess I haven't been feeding them well, and I'm a bit embarrassed about it. Yesterday (it's 4am now, so it's still feeling like today for me, haha) was pork cut into hmmm, about half the size of a fried mozzarella stick. Coated with bone meal for both meals. Apparently not good for them :/
They'll be quarantined and I'll vacuum more often since both groups enjoy the same places. They're definitely terrified of the ferrets, it's almost instant spraying, but Aya seems to do that while playing with her brothers, too. Is that odd? It's happened twice that I noticed.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2016 4:22:43 GMT -5
I'll experiment with ways of crushing the bone to see if there's any strategy that gets them to eat the bone, crushing/mixing like it was suggested will be first. I don't think they've eaten any bone before I adopted them, so jaw issues are a huge possibility. :/ He seems to be the runt, so being chewed on makes sense. The ear seems okay now, so I was kinda thinking it was maybe a lack of muscle from malnutrition, the back of the ear seems smaller... Again, pictures today. Feel like I'm doing everything wrong, really disappointing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2016 6:36:17 GMT -5
Any suggestions on treats for training, possibly something that could help build jaw strength? Was thinking about making some jerky and using that
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Post by Celene on Oct 9, 2016 11:03:54 GMT -5
A good option for building jaw strength is gizzards. They count as a muscle meal but are very tough and chewy. Jerky is another option.
And yes, kits WILL eat a freaking ton. They are busy growing, and that's why it's more important than ever to make sure they are getting a balanced diet. You can free feed them (and they should have food available at all times), as long as they are getting the correct ratios (for organs it is 1.5 meals of liver/other organ and 1.5 meals of heart per week as you know) This means if they are eating 1 lb a day of meat, they need 5.6 oz of liver, 5.6 oz of other organ and 11.2 oz of heart per week.
Even if your vet is pro-kibble (most vets are), I would still recommend taking your kits in to the vet to rule out any immediate and pressing issues. Regardless of how a vet feels about a raw diet, they can still check for ear mites and jaw/dental issues.
"Clean ears" (especially in kits) doesn't mean no ear mites are present, as the sort of build up that would be visible takes time (and they may groom each others' ears too). When I got my boy Ziggy his ears LOOKED fine, but had him checked anyway since he had been housed outdoors and sure enough he had them. There are many risks (heartworm for example) that can be found in ferrets living outdoors that show no outward symptoms that a vet can check for.
In regards to the poofing, that's totally normal. Ferrets will do it when scared or startled for sure, but many do it when they get excited, or really for no good reason at all.
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Post by maja01 on Oct 9, 2016 12:31:41 GMT -5
There is no need for specialized vet or a pro raw vet. They need basic check up and parasite exam. I would be surprised if they don't have at least ear mites. Coccidia and giardia are also VERY likely. All of the above are if course transsmitable to other animals, even tougj there is no direct contact (if the use same room for being left out of cages is the possible way of transsmition). My warmest suggest would be to take kits to the vet as soon as possible (i deal with lots of fosters and our protocol is clinical and parasitological exam prior they go anywhere - until this is done, i treat every foster as he would be not healthy). One thing you don't want for sure is to treat all 7 (6?) ferrets instead of just kits. Btw ... giardia and coccidia are usualy worse in adults if they get it. It is really not a joke.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2016 2:34:38 GMT -5
Alright, I'll schedule an appointment in the morning for early this week. They're finally able to eat together, same piece of meat. HUGE improvement from when I got them, lots of hissing and screaming, a honk or two, and what kinda sounds like a bark, just from another kit in eyesight. I went to the store today and got chicken wings, chicken gizzards, and some cuts of lamb. I cut up the wing as best as I could, crushing the tip and using my knife to all but decimate it, then cut into chunks. As an experiment, I also gave them a full wing, in case the lack of bone eating might be due to not knowing the can eat it. The first session of eating ate over half the chunks and a good half inch of the full wing tip. Are the split bones going to be a problem? Cutting board is before, black background is after. postimg.org/gallery/24sjn3jbiI did the best I could with their sleeping positions. Let me know if I need to get pictures of anything else. Aya: postimg.org/gallery/pax1bdo0Dexter: postimg.org/gallery/kqhmlvscAxel: The picture of the closed ear is the only one I found, it's from the night I got him. I got a few different angles, not sure what will help. His nose is dirty in the closed ear picture, that's not a pattern. He also has what I think is a skin tag in his genital area. As well as a notch in his tongue that indents, then sticks out of his teeth behind his fang. Not sure if either of them are normal or worth bringing up to the vet. Thoughts?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2016 5:58:57 GMT -5
I think you're right about the mites. I checked again and there are small black/brown spots forming. Not itching yet, though. But I think they transferred to Booker, and he spread it to everyone else, because Ciel is scratching his ear on the floor and Booker has dirty ears. :/ Should I just ask for ear mite solution for all of them?
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Post by Celene on Oct 10, 2016 11:08:39 GMT -5
One of Dexter's lower canine's looks quite yellow (possibly damaged) for his age: Axel's tongue looked like the notch was caused by an injury, but appears to be fully healed and shouldn't affect anything. Definitely have the vet check all the teeth in person as they will be able to tell you more, but it sounds like the kits ARE eating bone. The bone fragments are nothing to worry about. If your vet confirms ear mites (or any other contagious condition), definitely treat your whole business. Have you asked any butchers yet about getting in an alternate bone-in source such as rabbit or quail? You can also look into whole prey (rats, mice, etc.) Ferrets (especially growing kits) absolutely need more bone-in variety than chicken wings alone.
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Post by maja01 on Oct 10, 2016 11:37:50 GMT -5
I have no idea what the thing on the tongue is. Vet should se it. It can be anything from weird healed trauma, epulis, or something worse. Impossible to say from pics alone.
Mites - after the kits will be checked by vet, you will know for sure if they have ear mites. If yes, all ferrets should be treated.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2016 1:45:49 GMT -5
Had the vet appointment today! Surprisingly, no ear mites, just wax. No other mites or parasites found from a physical exam and fecal exam. She gave them a dose of Revolution in case they have any heart/ring/hook worms, etc. Axel's ear doesn't seem different at all, she didn't notice any difference compared to his other ear and didn't see anything of concern. The tongue notch looks like he bit it a while ago, but she said it's fully healed now. I was right about his skin tag, she just said to keep an eye out for swelling or redness. I didn't have a chance to check on here before I went, so I didn't know to ask about Dexter's fangs, but she didn't mention it when she checked his mouth. I'll clean his teeth and if it doesn't go away, I'll make another appointment for the vet.
Do you think they'd be able to kill/eat if I got a breeder mouse or rat? I would think that kits play too violently for a small animal. That might be easier for both variety and ratios.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2016 1:57:06 GMT -5
Just checked Dexter's teeth and both of his bottom fangs have the yellow, about the same amount. I would think one of the others would also have similar if it was malnutrition, so maybe it was damage to his lower jaw? I'll ask the vet if she can double-check that tomorrow.
Edit: Checked the others more closely in better lighting and they all have it pretty darkly, Dexter just has it the darkest. :/
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Post by Celene on Oct 13, 2016 20:55:08 GMT -5
Young kits, especially so young at that age should have pure white teeth (even if they were being fed dog food, I believe it wouldn't affect the teeth so quickly, but I will double check). Do the other two kits have pearly white lower canines? It's hard for me to tell from your photos. You can definitely feed (pre-killed) whole prey, and eventually work up to live (after checking your state laws and with a lot of preparation/research/training the kits) if you're interested in that. However, we first MUST make sure they are currently on a balanced diet. I know you've been busy, but I need their detailed weekly menu (as previously described) before we can move forward.Please include it in your next post. I'm glad the vet check came back with no major issues for the kits
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2016 22:27:20 GMT -5
Sorry, I just got really sick over the last few days. I was close to going to the ER, but I think I'm okay now. They've all had chicken wings since Tuesday because I couldn't stand without having seizures... :/ Before that: Friday AM: Chicken wing Friday PM: Pork chunks (can't find where I wrote down the amount) Saturday AM: Chicken gizzards Saturday PM: Pork chunks Sunday AM: Chicken wing, ground Sunday PM: Beef and Lamb chunks w/bone meal (kits had half a pound, 50/50) Monday AM: Chicken wing (partially cut up to make the bones easier) Monday PM: Beef Tuesday through Friday AM was chicken wings, it's all I could do between seizures, vomiting, and brain shocks. They really need organs, I'll thaw a heart in the fridge overnight to cut up tomorrow morning, I need to make more soupies ASAP. Friday PM: Beef and gizzards I also need to call the vet tomorrow morning to make an appointment for Koi. The swollen nipple has gotten worse and I noticed today that the fur around it is gone... Edit: She's missing fur on the base of her tail, too. Suspecting adrenal... hair loss at base of tail and patchy along the stomach, swollen nipple, crusted sore by anus, lethargy, seems to have hind end weakness, decreased appetite. The other two have grayish yellow canines, just not as dark. Would harder dog food maybe be too hard for them to chew and cause damage?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2016 3:00:55 GMT -5
I ordered from Hare-Today! Should be shipping out early next week. I got beef (gullet, lung), venison (boneless chunks), duck (boneless ground, bone-in pieces - will crush), quail (semi-boneless dressed), rabbit (boneless ground, rabbit/bone/organ ground, chunks, skinned/gutted whole prey, small whole rabbit), lamb (kidney, dehydrated lung - for training), and mouse (adult 5 pack sampler).
I think I'll leave the ground duck for recovery times, mainly thinking of Koi right now.
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