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Post by crazylady on May 18, 2011 17:37:18 GMT -5
oh I know how they can be lol I have two nursing at the moment and before hand one wouldn't touch lactol now she cant get enough lol there getting through 3 meals of meat and three bowls of milk plus scrambled egg on a morning all dusted with bonemeal lol its surprising what you can hide in a bit of bunny lol I once had one who went off cod liver oil ( even though she only got it once a week lol ) in the end I had to use a fine syringe suck it out of the capsule and inject it into the rabbit lol the joys of topping them up lol once again good luck lol bet once she has delivered though you cant keep up with demand lol take care bye for now
Bev aka crazy lady
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Post by lorelei0922 on May 18, 2011 17:46:44 GMT -5
yeah i love that short coat too.. makes everything neat and tidy for the big event...
do you breeders worry about having phantoms? even though manipulation showed at least two sacks at 3 weeks and i THINK i felt two today... i always worry about now that she's faking and all this stress and worry is for nothing lol..
i know i get this feeling about NOW every single time... when the belly gets bigger but not quite big enough and the bump is hiding the kits very very well ... etc and then everything turns out as it should and i go .. well duh!! you KNEW this lol
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Post by crazylady on May 19, 2011 17:31:53 GMT -5
lol I go through that every time so your not alone lol its surprising how they can also suck them up under there ribs so you cant feel them at all then suddenly a few days before delivery date this pear shape appears and they go grumpy lol and you think is it or isn't it lol and the belly seems to hard to feel anything my advice is have a drink put your feet up and enjoy the rest because she will have you run off your feet when they arrive lol take care bye for now
bev aka crazy lady
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Post by joan on May 19, 2011 18:14:16 GMT -5
Bev, what's the name of the bone meal you use which has meat in it? I started using bone meal years ago for pregnant and nursing jills, as well as kits through 4 months or so, because it was a naturally balanced form of calcium and phosphorus. I use the Solid Gold brand because it was the only one I could find which was certified free of heavy metals (lead, arsenic, and mercury).
Lorelei, I consider a phantom pregnancy to be cause for concern unless the jill was deliberately falsed as it's usually an indication of a hormone imbalance or due to the jill resorbing the fetuses. I'd probably try the jill again with a different hob, then spay her if she falsed a second time.
Since I've only had a couple litters with less than 7 kits, it's pretty obvious by the end of the 4th week that the jill is pregnant. With those two litters, I wasn't sure they were pregnant until the last week. I didn't keep anything out of either litter, as a small litter (less than 5) can be an indication of problem genetics so that the affected kits died at some point in the pregnancy and were resorbed.
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Post by lorelei0922 on May 20, 2011 0:30:49 GMT -5
In general i agree with you Joan... too small of litters and there could be a problem...
However Cammy's case is a bit different, genetically and phsysically she is just too small for too many kits. She's a micro and only weighs 12 ounces on a good day soaking wet! She had 6 last year and thats all that fit!
We had NO intention of breeding her this year at all...she did that all on her own.. i separated her from the hob the instant i found her... His ahems.. lipstick was out lol.. but i'm guessing i didn't catch them in time for the first attempt..
He's a very quick boy and i dont know how long she'd been in His cage. He'd grabbed her once before and had her pinned and covered within 10 seconds... i can only assume she's preggers and not faking and stressing me for no reason lol
she's getting that defined pear shape when i hold her up now... but iv'e had that in phantom as well... ( the first time i bred, the jills were fully in season but the boy wasn't quite ready.. He brought them out of season but that was it... they both phantomed and came directly back into season and we tried again... had two healthy litters of 11 and 12)
both jills at that time looked for all the world pregnant to me! they behaved the same and looked fat and sassy... then it just poof.. faded away...
to be honest it wouldn't be the end of the world if she did... just hate the waiting game!
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Post by joan on May 20, 2011 2:04:42 GMT -5
The one consistent factor I've seen with a false pregnancy is that the bright pink nipples go back to their normal pale pink color a few days before the due date.
You're braver than I am, Lorelei...I wouldn't have had the nerve to breed a jill that small. I've corresponded with UK breeders who breed for the micros, and they've said that micro jills have problems in carrying viable kits to term...and not many survive for more than a few days.
I can understand why Cammy didn't go into labor last year, as her uterus probably couldn't contract with 6 kits in there. Sure hope all goes well this year!
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Post by lorelei0922 on May 20, 2011 15:11:34 GMT -5
Hi Joan... i think it would be a great idea to have a Breeders section... a place we could all chat about this stuff lol...
As for the micros bred here in the UK... a lot of the time you are Very very correct.. there are a lot of problems... this comes because of the genetic history of said micros.. they are obtained through inbreeding instead of selective breeding which is how we obtained Cammy... a long long process of breeding selected small jills to selected small hobs... never related any closer than 4 generations back.. this SHOULD give you a much better genetic make up to work with...
Cammy and her Hob last year were of the same ilk from seperate breeders who used this sort of selective breeding program..
the inability to go into labor the vet believes was just a inertia failure which just plain happens sometimes and she very well may labor successfully this time..
the loss of her kits.. He believes either they were rescued too late or that they had respitory failure due to not having the gunk squished out during the birth process... either way we're just crossing our fingers here this time around!
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Post by Sherry on May 20, 2011 15:24:13 GMT -5
I'll see about getting that section set up tonight  I KNOW we'd all love hearing about it  |
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Post by joan on May 20, 2011 19:55:39 GMT -5
Sounds good, Sherry...thanks!
I seem to remember Cammy was sectioned a couple days or so after her due date. If so, that may have been the problem in saving the kits. The US show breeders induce labor if the jill hasn't gone into labor by the due date, and I remember reading that the kits will die if not delivered by the 43rd day.
My jills almost always deliver the day before their due date, and large litters can be 2-3 days early. Cybill whelped almost 2 days before she was due.
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Post by lorelei0922 on May 20, 2011 20:15:38 GMT -5
Cammy went 2 days over... at that point we took her to the vet and they induced with prostiglandin though the vet wasn't really sure what dosage etc.. ( finally found the proper dosage in an online reference) we went home and she labored for about 2 hours then stalled
she was admitted the next day, scanned, and then sectioned...
most of mine have been born on or before their due date as well...
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Post by lorelei0922 on May 20, 2011 20:16:38 GMT -5
(oh.. and we were told that 2 days before and up to 2 days after) .. ie between 40 - 44 days
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Post by crazylady on May 21, 2011 14:43:20 GMT -5
Hi I have normally found the younger the jill the larger the litter ( older jills tend to have smaller litters where as younger jills have larger ones ) jills are only born with so many eggs and with each season that passes and they mature the egg production slows down normally the average litter size is 7-8 but it can be as low as 2 depending on how many eggs were actually fertilised and implanted plus sex plays a part in litters jill foetuses tend to be smaller than hobs in hob dominated litters the numbers are usually lower than in jill dominated litters this is only my own personal observations over the years and jills can reabsorb when stressed not only from genetic problems or abort due to stress I also work on the two days before or two days after principle because the time of conception plays a part ( did they mate early morning late evening and when was mating successful if he was left in for more than one day ?) I have had litters born from a jill aged two where only 3 male kits were born I have repeated the pairing when she was four and she produced 6 five jills and one male lol I guess they decide how many there bodies can cope with lol take care bye for now
Bev aka crazy lady
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Post by joan on May 22, 2011 9:49:21 GMT -5
I agree with most of your observations, Bev, as the younger jills (1-2 years old) have larger litters and the litter size drops off after that. I rarely breed a jill more than one time unless the tie was less than an hour, so that I know exactly when she's due to whelp. If I'm not sure there was a tie or the breeding was a short one, I'll rebreed them 12 hours later.
I do think stress can be a big factor with apparent false pregnancies and problem whelpings. In many cases, it seems to be the result of too many ferrets confined in too close quarters and/or lack of privacy for the (hopefully) pregnant jill. This doesn't seem to be a problem for the early neuters, as they largely retain the juvenile mentality due to the lack of hormones needed to mature physically and mentally, but entire ferrets may retain more of the polecat solitary nature than is generally recogized.
While a few of my individual litters have had a predominance of one sex, over time the litters leveled out to a 50/50 ratio. I have one jill who produced 4 hobs and 3 jills at a year old, and a hob and 4 jills at 3 years old.
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