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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 12:25:19 GMT -5
@vickiann Nancy doesn't have any colours in her blood line, she's pure albino and also micro which is why I bred her with Vinnie last year as he's a smallish hob but he carries all sorts of colours and patterns as well as the micro gene as he's 1/2 micro, the 2 kits they had last year were both albino and the jill is micro size but the hob has ended up growing bigger than Vinnie.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 12:26:30 GMT -5
I'm not sure this is something that should be up for a vote from non-breeders, especially non-breeders who don't know your ferrets. Why do you think that?
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Post by anunnaki on Jan 12, 2016 12:38:17 GMT -5
I made a vote just for fun because they are both cute as can be but I hope you go off of what you know about them and not so much what the vote came down to.
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Post by gfountain on Jan 12, 2016 12:39:25 GMT -5
TBH I would be looking at the genetic backgrounds of each a few generations back, and seeing who would complement who the best. Otherwise, why breed them? This.^^^ We don't know their backgrounds, temperaments, bloodlines, anything. Breeding should be done with careful planning, not just on the whim of strangers.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 12:40:23 GMT -5
@vickiann Nancy doesn't have any colours in her blood line, she's pure albino and also micro which is why I bred her with Vinnie last year as he's a smallish hob but he carries all sorts of colours and patterns as well as the micro gene as he's 1/2 micro, the 2 kits they had last year were both albino and the jill is micro size but the hob has ended up growing bigger than Vinnie. She could be anything under her albino then. This is always something that does concern me regarding albinos .. you would never know what is there regarding dilutes, recessives on other loci etc because you will never see them. In micros the sky is the limit more than likely for dilutes and recessives. Out of all the littlies I have, I have been hard pushed to find any without white marks and recessives in there. I have a few, but due to the difficulty finding others, I am starting to see pink noses and ruby eyes in the kits when I breed these unfortunately, and am going to have to work hard to get the recessive genes out again. It makes sense that the hob has grown bigger - IME if a mini doesn't breed true, especially a hob, it will outgrow both parents. I have seen this on several occasions. And I have never seen a small hob come from anything but a mini to mini breeding with a long line of minis in the ancestry, it takes only the slightest presence of a standard there to throw out a big hob. Small size is not as simple as just being one gene, I could only begin to imagine the complex mixture of genetics which dictates a ferret's size. Which is why breeding small size ferrets is very difficult to do, and why so many people decide to shortcut and just inbreed until they ruin them. Having parallel and unrelated lines all of small size and keeping good records seems to be the only way to do this. You will get all albino kits again, unless you get a primary mutation. There is a really good book on here on Ferret husbandry, medicine and surgery and it has a super section on colour genetics too which you might find an interesting read :-)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 13:00:10 GMT -5
TBH I would be looking at the genetic backgrounds of each a few generations back, and seeing who would complement who the best. Otherwise, why breed them? This.^^^ We don't know their backgrounds, temperaments, bloodlines, anything. Breeding should be done with careful planning, not just on the whim of strangers. All the ferrets backgrounds and bloodlines are known to me and they're all are lovely, good natured ferrets, I wouldn't breed them if anything genetic would effect the kits in a negative way and I'd never breed from ferrets with bad temperaments. I have planned the litters and looked at all the papers, nothing has cropped up that will effect the kits in a bad way. Willow and Whisper are sister, I don't want to breed them with the same hob which is why I thought I'd ask everyone on the forum about who Willow should with out of the 2 hobs.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 13:07:12 GMT -5
@vickiann Nancy doesn't have any colours in her blood line, she's pure albino and also micro which is why I bred her with Vinnie last year as he's a smallish hob but he carries all sorts of colours and patterns as well as the micro gene as he's 1/2 micro, the 2 kits they had last year were both albino and the jill is micro size but the hob has ended up growing bigger than Vinnie. She could be anything under her albino then. This is always something that does concern me regarding albinos .. you would never know what is there regarding dilutes, recessives on other loci etc because you will never see them. In micros the sky is the limit more than likely for dilutes and recessives. Out of all the littlies I have, I have been hard pushed to find any without white marks and recessives in there. I have a few, but due to the difficulty finding others, I am starting to see pink noses and ruby eyes in the kits when I breed these unfortunately, and am going to have to work hard to get the recessive genes out again. It makes sense that the hob has grown bigger - IME if a mini doesn't breed true, especially a hob, it will outgrow both parents. I have seen this on several occasions. And I have never seen a small hob come from anything but a mini to mini breeding with a long line of minis in the ancestry, it takes only the slightest presence of a standard there to throw out a big hob. Small size is not as simple as just being one gene, I could only begin to imagine the complex mixture of genetics which dictates a ferret's size. Which is why breeding small size ferrets is very difficult to do, and why so many people decide to shortcut and just inbreed until they ruin them. Having parallel and unrelated lines all of small size and keeping good records seems to be the only way to do this. You will get all albino kits again, unless you get a primary mutation. There is a really good book on here on Ferret husbandry, medicine and surgery and it has a super section on colour genetics too which you might find an interesting read :-) Is the book you're talking about by James McKay, if so then I've already read it, same with the book by Val Porter on ferrets. How come you're trying to get rid of the white colouration in your ferrets? Just out of curiosity
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 13:25:34 GMT -5
@frolickingferrets It's the one available on here (http://holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/7615/ferret-husbandry-medicine-surgery-edit), J. Lewington I believe. It's not the one by James McKay. Just thought you may find it an interesting read, I certainly did. It's got some brilliant anecdotes in the reproduction section and input from various authorities internationally.
I ideally would like sables, dark sables with no recessives hiding. Once you start seeing sables with pink noses, ruby eyes and white throats ... you generally know you have some recessives lurking. I have never been a big fan of albinos, and simply for the fact that albino can 'hide' a lot of colours, unless a ferret's lineage is very well known for many generations back, you can never be sure of what you're actually breeding underneath the albino. If you know, the only colours are pure sables with black noses and black noses you can feel reasonably confident you are not hiding troublesome recessives and dilutes, but if there is the odd sable and eye colour/nose colour/white marks are not known, there is the possibility of all sorts being passed down generation to generation.
I do like white marks, but I would rather have white marks where I intend them to be and accept the ruby eyes rather than muddy the sables with a washed out colour, white bits here and there and pink noses. I think spreading the recessives out across everything could be asking for a lethal cocktail. Multiple recessives are known to have a negative effect on the immune system of the individual.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 13:40:21 GMT -5
I'm not sure this is something that should be up for a vote from non-breeders, especially non-breeders who don't know your ferrets. I figured that it was all in good fun and FF will decide what's best in the end but I can understand your point.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 14:25:58 GMT -5
@frolickingferrets It's the one available on here (http://holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/7615/ferret-husbandry-medicine-surgery-edit), J. Lewington I believe. It's not the one by James McKay. Just thought you may find it an interesting read, I certainly did. It's got some brilliant anecdotes in the reproduction section and input from various authorities internationally. I ideally would like sables, dark sables with no recessives hiding. Once you start seeing sables with pink noses, ruby eyes and white throats ... you generally know you have some recessives lurking. I have never been a big fan of albinos, and simply for the fact that albino can 'hide' a lot of colours, unless a ferret's lineage is very well known for many generations back, you can never be sure of what you're actually breeding underneath the albino. If you know, the only colours are pure sables with black noses and black noses you can feel reasonably confident you are not hiding troublesome recessives and dilutes, but if there is the odd sable and eye colour/nose colour/white marks are not known, there is the possibility of all sorts being passed down generation to generation. I do like white marks, but I would rather have white marks where I intend them to be and accept the ruby eyes rather than muddy the sables with a washed out colour, white bits here and there and pink noses. I think spreading the recessives out across everything could be asking for a lethal cocktail. Multiple recessives are known to have a negative effect on the immune system of the individual. I'll probably end up reading it at some point
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 14:30:49 GMT -5
I'm not sure this is something that should be up for a vote from non-breeders, especially non-breeders who don't know your ferrets. I figured that it was all in good fun and FF will decide what's best in the end but I can understand your point. I understand gfountain's point of view, I've done the planning for both hobs since I was undecided on which I was going to breed with her, I'm mainly after opinions on the hobs more than anything.
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Post by Heather on Jan 12, 2016 15:30:13 GMT -5
The best question would be what are you wanting to achieve? What do you need to improve on and how are you going to achieve that (hopefully, the ferrets always have the last say). That would be my take on it lol ciao
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Post by maja01 on Jan 12, 2016 16:02:03 GMT -5
I agree with Heather. Breeding combos should be planned on your breeding goals.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2016 16:09:37 GMT -5
The best question would be what are you wanting to achieve? What do you need to improve on and how are you going to achieve that (hopefully, the ferrets always have the last say). That would be my take on it lol ciao Heather Now you ask, my main objective with breeding my ferrets is to produce healthy kits free from any illnesses even later on in their lives and for them to be free from any genetic issue that could effect their health. For example, I've never bred from Jasper despite him being an entire hob, the reason for this is that when I got him he had a breathing problem relating to his nasal passage which causes him to snaught and he has developed adrenal disease which could have been caused by his genetics. I also show and work my ferrets and I may consider keep a couple of kits but Vinnie is from showing lines and he was in the championship racing last year but he isn't very good in the show itself, Jimmy on the other hand who is from working stock only does much better than Vinnie at shows despite him being a little nervous around people but that's because he was never handle until he was 6 months of age but he's fine with being handled and hasn't bitten anyone since he was a kit. Both hobs are unrelated to all my jills and are both very healthy ferrets, the only real difference between them is size, Jimmy is huge and weighs over 2 kg and Vinnie is similar size to a large jill.
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Post by Heather on Jan 13, 2016 13:39:40 GMT -5
I understand the health thing, that's something we all want....but really what are you looking to improve on in your lines...better heads, colour, eye shape, body structure? These are the important things that must be considered. I have a wee boy. Gorgeous temperament, good health, nice head good length of body but I have to really consider the jill he's put to. He's a whippet type and his mother and his brother have rather small narrow heads. I know that seems to be in his line so the jill I choose for him must have a more robust bone structure and a stunning head. He carries good length of body and tail, as does his brother. I have a line on 2 jills. They're both gorgeous wee girls both have good attributes but the one girl will do him better than the other. ciao
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