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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2015 17:56:14 GMT -5
I'm getting a jump-start while waiting for a mentor and seeing as we just butchered rabbits I decided to make them soupie! (kibble was removed 3 hours before I gave them soup) I made the soup following the recipe (using rabbit in place of chicken though), and found the organs and meat to be still warm, also learned livers are very slippery, and I was equally excited and creeped out to find a still beating heart in the baggy of organs my mom gave me. Definitely an experience to remember! So with soupie made, I brought the weasels to a small room and prepared myself for a battle. And was pleasantly surprised to find a lack of one.Courage- The boy was really happy and started war dancing as soon as I put him on the floor...and immediately did an accidental face-plant into the bowl of soup * which he then began to lap out of the bowl, no questions asked!! I was super thrilled and every time he ran past me I put him next to the bowl which he ate from every time. When I tried offering him some from my finger he nearly bit it, so I doubt he'll have problems switching up to bits of meat mixed in. He scarfed it down the most out of all the ferrets so I'm super happy. Loki- After a bit from my finger wasn't enough, I fed him from a spoon which he lapped up no prob. He didn't want any straight out of the bowl at first but as soon as he saw Courage eating from it he joined (woot woot! both cinnamon boys on board!) He ran past the bowl and stopped to eat a few times without coaxing. (dance) Mycroft- With him being the youngest I expected him to take it the easiest but was sadly disappointed. He wants nothing to do with the soup but I kept letting him go play, and offering him it whenever I scooped him up. I held him and put some on his gums (he would lick it off his nose/chin but would NOT take any from my finger, bowl, spoon, etc.) I will try again tonight but this morning was a no-go. He thankfully did not avoid me or get fluffed up or upset after mean-mommy made him eat icky soup (giggle) Cheshire- She ate it off my finger really well and ate if off the spoon (each time I picked her up I had to start with offering it on my finger, couldn't go straight to spoon). She also came up to the boys and licked soup off their mouth when they were eating but refused the bowl. Spinner- Being previously known as the picky one, Spinner at first refused but after a bit on her nose she started to lick it off my finger. Like Chesh she would eat it off the spoon but only when led from finger to spoon, but she did it a wee bit from the bowl. All-in-all I was really really happy with the results and excited to give it another try tonight! Courage and Loki have no problems eating it, the girls are open minded, and Mycroft just needs to be convinced I'm not trying to poison him All I gotta say: allons-y! (giggle)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2015 18:07:48 GMT -5
Wow! You're off to a terrific start. Very nice job to all of you.
Since you have five, I wanted to copy their basic info onto this thread to refer to. It will make it easier for any Mentors checking in:
I currently have five carpet sharks, all Marshalls, Courage and Loki came from pretty bad starts.
Cheshire is 2 (will be 3 in Feb), girl, with no known health problems but is very very small (lengthwise) and only weighs 479.107g (1lb .9oz). I have owned her AND Spinner since May 2013
Spinner is 2 (will be 3 in Feb also), girl, with no known health problems and weighs 629.357g (1lb 6.2oz).
Loki is 2 (will be 3 in Jan), boy, no known health problems and weighs 901.515g (1lb 15.8oz). I have owned him since April 6th 2014.
Mycroft is 1 (will be 2 in may,) boy, no known health problems and weighs 1071.612g (2 lbs 5.8oz). I have owned him since Nov 26th 2014.
Courage is ~2, boy, no known health problems and weighs 1255.885g (2lbs 12.3oz). I have owned him since september 7th of this year.
If you get a chance, would you post a picture of each one of them from a top view and a dangling view.
Who is your Alpha?
We always get one very stubborn one. It's funny that your youngest is your holdout. He'll follow along quickly enough.
:wave3:
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2015 18:28:37 GMT -5
10. Please post a picture of each of your ferrets (if possible). Cheshire- Spinner- Loki- Mycroft- Courage- And Cheshire (my itty bitty little runt-sized girl) is the alpha haha. And thank you Poncesmom!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2015 18:40:10 GMT -5
They are all beautiful. What you want to see in a healthy weight is a ferret who is straight up and down (kibble ferrets will be more pear shaped) but not thin enough to have a waistline. You should be able to feel their ribs but not see them. Yours are all at a nice healthy weight.
Of course, your bitty female is the Alpha. Girls rule!
Is Spinner's tail going through a bit of a rat tail phase?
Until your Mentor is assigned, keep posting and we will check in. Once a week, either Sunday or Monday please post this info:
1. Ferret's name: 2. Ferret's weight: 3. Ferret has eaten "X" amount on average per meal. 4. Stools on various proteins. 5. Activity levels: 6. Weekly menu:
That will help us keep track and then when your switching thread is official, we can add these thread to your official thread.
Don't hesitate to ask questions. We all love to help. :wave3:
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2015 18:50:28 GMT -5
Spinner lost some fur after a really bad flea outbreak (family memember with like 100 cats moved in), vet got them flea-free and assured me that the only reason she lost hair was from so much scratching (coupled with it being summer) and not something more serious, thank Gallifrey. So flea free and regrowing hair unfortunately
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2015 18:58:44 GMT -5
Just checking. My Mika is going through a bit of a rat tail now. Spinner is rather young so I wasn't worried about Adrenal. I just wanted to check.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2015 21:12:49 GMT -5
Spinner is going to be a stasher probably. She took a great big mouthful from the spoon and then ran under the step stool to "spit" it out and eat it off the floor. Courage ate about an ice cubes worth by himself and Loki ate about half that. Does anyone know if I can I add a bit of salmon oil to some, to try and get Mycroft to take it? Cheers!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2015 1:53:23 GMT -5
Both Loki and Courage both ate an entire ice cube of soup for both morning and evening (still putting kibble out mid day and at nighttime until they all start eating regularly). They both left a little bit so I knew they didn't need more (though after half an hour I offered both of them their little bit back which they ate.) By this evening as soon as I put them in the room and set their separate bowls down they started chowing down, no coaxing necessary! They are all their food BEFORE playing, in one sitting, super happy. Girls both ate about 1/3 of a cube each (2/3 in total) for each meal. Spinner may have eaten a bit more than Cheshire though. Mycroft is now spitting out any soupie I put on his gums, warm or cold. Going to make another batch tomorrow or the next day and I'm gonna try a different protein (probably chicken) to see if that helps, silly boy just holds out for kibble. I also may make the Courage and Loki their own soup with slivers in it to start getting them further. Do I just not keep it in the food processor as long? Or hold some of the meat out, make the soupie, and add the held out meat as little cut up slivers (if that makes sense)? Thanks anyone who comments or reads!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2015 19:09:38 GMT -5
Spinner is going to be a stasher probably. She took a great big mouthful from the spoon and then ran under the step stool to "spit" it out and eat it off the floor. Courage ate about an ice cubes worth by himself and Loki ate about half that. Does anyone know if I can I add a bit of salmon oil to some, to try and get Mycroft to take it? Cheers! They did well. Your Spinner is too funny and you already have her number. You can put a drop of oil on the top of the food to convince Mycroft to eat better. You don't want him to expect it every time but for now don't hesitate to use a little bit of coaxing and if he likes salmon oil, then it will help tempt him to eat.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2015 19:17:30 GMT -5
Both Loki and Courage both ate an entire ice cube of soup for both morning and evening (still putting kibble out mid day and at nighttime until they all start eating regularly). They both left a little bit so I knew they didn't need more (though after half an hour I offered both of them their little bit back which they ate.) By this evening as soon as I put them in the room and set their separate bowls down they started chowing down, no coaxing necessary! They are all their food BEFORE playing, in one sitting, super happy. Girls both ate about 1/3 of a cube each (2/3 in total) for each meal. Spinner may have eaten a bit more than Cheshire though. Mycroft is now spitting out any soupie I put on his gums, warm or cold. Going to make another batch tomorrow or the next day and I'm gonna try a different protein (probably chicken) to see if that helps, silly boy just holds out for kibble. I also may make the Courage and Loki their own soup with slivers in it to start getting them further. Do I just not keep it in the food processor as long? Or hold some of the meat out, make the soupie, and add the held out meat as little cut up slivers (if that makes sense)? Thanks anyone who comments or reads! You're moving along and doing well at managing each one's individual wants and needs. That's not easy with five. I would make Courage and Loki their own soup. If they're ready to move faster, that's great and just might encourage the others to follow suit. Put some soupie on a plate and then just cut up some small slivers and mix them in. Then watch the fun of very surprised faces when they notice their first slivers. Slice the slivers small at first. About the size of your little fingernail crescent. The idea is to get them eating the slivers and then increase the size of the slivers and reduce the soup until they are eating all slivers. Mycroft is playing you. He is smart and perfectly capable of holding out for his kibble. Just like a little kid who pushes aside his dinner and wants his cookie first. Ferrets really are smart and think alot like a two year old toddler. Just wait for your first tantrum to come from him and then I want to hear all about it. (giggle) You must have been so happy to see the girls eat so well and then play. You're doing great. Keep posting and give yourself a pat on the back. Hugs to the fuzzies. :wave3:
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 15:31:03 GMT -5
Thank you so much @poncesmom! Ha, ever seen an 18 y/o girl excited to check out with 6 packs of chicken hearts? Neither had the cashier at WinCo apparently Updates! Loki- Made soupie with slivers in it for Loki and Courage, after the first mouthful Loki just sat there, not swallowing, trying to figure out what the tiny little pieces were in his mouth, I was afraid he'd spit it out but after swallowing he went right back to eating like nothing had happened! Score! Courage- Last night Courage tried the slivers with no problem-o and so this morning I decided to push it a bit and gave him slightly bigger pieces, which he, again, ate up no problem! Yay, he's even further than Loki Girls- Spinner and Chesh are at the same place before, (gave both of them a bit of Loki's soup which Chesh spit out and Spinner hid and left on the floor) but hey, at least they're eating soupie in the first place! Cheshire also has begun dragging the entire plate and trying to fit it under the step stool (giggle) gonna use a cardboard box as a make-shift feeding den to prevent the girls from stashing more. Also: is it normal for them to eat way less than the boys? I know they're little but the boys, especially Courage, will just chow down and the girls eat all daintily for a few minutes, wipe off their mouths on the towel (or once, Cheshire climbed my shoulder and wiped her face off in my hair :pullhair: THAT resulted in a very fast shower!). I offer them more but they'll just hide it or take a lick and run away. Mycroft- Well this boy is not happy. Seeing as the other guys are doing so well, I removed kibble before bed last night and left soup in its place, which was eaten by the others, (which got switched out 2x during the night, family members all on different schedules) and he got to sleep in my other FN by himself with his kibble. Cage rage is an understatement. He knocked all the litter out of its box, and dug at the bars like he was going mad. This morning I removed his kibble at the same time I have been every day, put them all in the bathroom to feed them soup (like always) which he still refuses. I put a bit on a spoon with some oil which at first he took a big lick of then spit the soup out and refused oil, I also tried putting a bit of kibble crumbs on the soup which he took a big bite of and spit out. He still gets his kibble at night and the bit of time in the afternoon but he still refuses soup. Everyone is still playing the same amount, girls are still always trying to get into things they aren't supposed to, and Mycroft still doesn't hate/avoid me me so I'm happy. Five ferrets, three different places in switching. (Still it's going easier than I thought it would!)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 16:14:05 GMT -5
That's so funny about the grocery store. I always make a point of telling cashiers that I'm buying for ferrets. It's so much fun to watch their faces. Also any excuse to talk ferret right?
When I buy quail in this tiny Asian store, someone is always trying to offer a recipe for it. I use to tell them that it was for ferrets but now I listen politely and smile and then my husband gets in the car and wants to know when we can have the quail for ourselves.
Good for Loki! He was a very good sport. Slivers should get easier now. Courage is well named. He is ready and willing. Try going up a tiny bit in size next time. Spinner and Cheshire are normal girls. One wants to stash and females in particular love to stash food. It must be a natural nesting instinct.
It is normal for girls to eat much less. Females may scare you with how little they appear to eat. Grown boys eat 3-4 ounces a day on average. Grown girls eat 2-3 ounces but often it barely seems like an ounce. They all eat more in the winter and less in the spring. Males may lose up to 30 percent of their body weight in the spring.
That's one reason I love people making switches at this time of year. When they wait until January or February, then suddenly their ferrets begin losing winter weight and it freaks them out and they panic over this new diet.
Mycroft your youngest is just a big personality in a tiny body. Put him on your lap. Dab your finger in the soup and put some on his gums and mouth. He'll have to lick it off if he can't get down from your lap. Don't hold him tight, just place your other hand lightly over him to let him know you are there. Once he licks it off, give him a second or so to swallow and get over this new indignity and try again.
What temp is the soupie? You know that old saying, some like it hot? Try a bit of warm water mixed into the soup. You can put a bit in a separate dish for him. Then try a bit of cold water. He may prefer it hot or cold. Some ferrets really like very cold meat. Mine all love warm to room temperature food.
What you are working towards is called the Frankenprey menu, unless you decide that you want to feed Whole prey at some point. Whole Prey doesn't have to be an alive animal but it does change how we feed. Some ferrents offer a combination. You might even want to try to offer pinkies or chicks as treats further down the road. Baby animals are always a treat. They simply don't have the nutritional value of an adult animal.
Take a look at the basic Frankenprey model. It is designed to mimic eating whole prey. It's carefully balanced and is built for a weekly menu:
This is what it will look like:
Basic Frankenprey Menu
Monday am: edible bone in meat Monday pm: edible bone in meat (or muscle) You will have 7-9 meals of Bone In and 3-4 meals of Muscle meat. We'll worry about which you choose later. Tuesday am: edible bone in meat Tuesday pm: muscle meat Wednesday am: edible bone in meat Wednesday pm: heart Thursday am: edible bone in meat Thursday pm: edible bone in meat (or muscle) Friday am: edible bone in meat Friday pm: ½ heart + ¼ liver + ¼ other organ Saturday am: edible bone in meat Saturday pm: muscle meat Sunday am: edible bone in meat Sunday pm: ½ liver + ½ other organ Edible Bone in meat: is just that, meat with bone included. It is not bones with just a bit of meat on them (ie: most of the meat removed). If you fed bones like this you will throw the balance of the menu off. You will be feeding small bones of small animals. Ferrets won't be able to handle a cow's leg so don't worry about that.
For your shopping list look for these protein sources for Bone In meals. chicken: any / all, quail: any / all, rabbit: any / all, turkey: necks, ribs, and wing tips, duck: neck, ribs, and wing tips. pork: button bones, rib ends, Cornish game hen: any / all.
Poops will let you know how many Bone In meals each one needs. In a weekly menu, they get 7-9 meals of bone. Mycroft being young may be better off with 9 meals. The girls may only need 7 meals. If poops are too firm, white or chalky then cut back on the Bone by one meal until the poop looks nice and normal. If the poops are too loose, then they need more bone.
Muscle meat: any Heart meat. Heart is not an organ for our purposed but considered a muscle meat. Learn to think in terms of Bone In meals/ Muscle Meat meals and Organ meals.
Your shopping list for Muscle meats can include:
Chicken (including gizzard), turkey, duck, lamb, goat, beef, Cornish Game Hen (counts as chicken), venison, elk, basically any meat (unaltered such as smoked, pickled or injected with salt) without bone.
Heart is considered a muscle meat but is ABSOLUTELY necessary as it is their primary source of Taurine. Lack of Taurine in their diet can lead to eyesight problems and other issues.
I like one muscle meat meal to be gizzards to help clean teeth and build jaw strength. One meal should be red meat to provide Iron and Vitamin B. Organ meat: Liver, kidney, thymus, pancreas, reproductive organs, lung, brain, basically any part of the body that secretes.
As you saw up above, we put two Organ meals into their weekly menu. Liver is full of Vitamin A and is Fat Soluable. That means that it remains in their system. Too much liver can have side effects so we pay attention to the amount of Liver they receive. Fat is an important part of a carnivore's diet as this is where they get their energy. It works for them in the same way carbs do for humans. Make sure to pick fattier cuts over leaner cuts when buying your meat (thigh vs. breast, shoulder vs. tenderloin, etc) The nice thing is that fattier cuts are less expensive.
Variety For optimal health a minimum (more is preferable) of 3 different proteins need to be in the diet. At least one of the minimum 3 proteins needs to be something other than: chicken, rabbit, cornish game hen or fish. This is to ensure enough Vitamin B, Iron and a good base of Taurine in the diet (most Taurine comes from the heart in the diet however).
So, that's your first lesson in the Frankenprey diet. Any questions
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 16:29:43 GMT -5
No questions! I actually already have all that in my ferret notebook, and also in a color coded spreadsheet on google docs, mother and I are working on an example menu, I'll post here for approval before using it!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 17:07:59 GMT -5
Terrific! You've been studying and I love to hear that. I'll check in again tomorrow. Hugs to all the fuzzies and tell them they are very lucky to have such a good ferrent. (dance)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2015 23:31:23 GMT -5
Ha ha!!! Success! Oh my Gallifrey I don't think I've ever felt more successful than when I finally got Mycroft to eat tonight!! I kept holding him and dabbing a bit on his nose until he finally realized he wasn't going to out-stubborn me, and that if he wanted to play with the others he had to cooperate. And he did! He licked all of it off my finger and I gave him a bit more, then let him down to play. We repeated that a few more times (each time starting with resistance, but less and less every time) and he licked the soup off each time. I was starting to worry that he didn't like the taste/texture but no, he really was just being stubborn. As soon as he got over his pride he was licking it up no problem, gosh I am so happy right now that it feels a bit silly, haha. Lookin' forward to tomorrow (Also, am I updating this too much? It's nearly twice a day!)
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