|
Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 22:35:41 GMT -5
hello! i had a newbie thread ( here), because as of today i have a food processor and all the ingredients i'll need, i wanted to begin an official switching thread. i can already tell i will need some help. i have five ferrets. weirdly enough, right now, none have any health issues and are not over or underweight: arrietty "etty", F, about 3.5 oatmeal, M, about 3 snickerdoodle "snickles", F, about 2.5 peregrin dook "pippin", M, about 1.5 cookies'n'creme "moo cookies", F, about 4 months cookies is a baby and already fully transitioned after three days living with me. she's already eaten two complete chicken wings (and half of the bones from them, some are still being knawed at), chicken liver and gizzard, and lots of beef tongue for some taurine (as of tomorrow i'll have turkey and chicken hearts). so she's good. all i need for her is a white board to write her menu on, and to figure out a good system to store everything i bought, because my freezer is packed and i have MORE meat coming tomorrow. i read not to get more than 6 months of meat or it may begin to get freezer burn. chicken wings/liver/gizzard is ridiculously easy for me to get (i live in japan) but i have to order the rest online, so i ordered a surplus of meat to freeze so i'll always have it on hand. the meat i've got right now: chicken gizzard, heart, liver, wing, thigh, leg turkey kidney, heart, liver square chunks of goat meat with bone (i can only really get this if i go on the air force base, which i did yesterday!) beef tongue and liver lamb kidney ---------------------- now on to the current situation... my four little snobs have been off their kibble for a few days. i mushed kibble up with some minced chicken and they ate that from my hand, so i added some meat slivers, crushed egg shells, liver, gizzard and thigh meat, and beef tongue, and they ate those too. very reluctantly, and had to be scruffed at first, but then would usually eat about a spoonful each time i held them, even after i stopped scruffing and just held them. today, i followed the soupie recipie, except i used smashed up chicken wings (with bone in) since i don't have bone meal, but my food processor died midway. so it is less of a soup and more of a chunky paste. since my snobs have been reluctantly eating from a spoon even the weird mush with slivers i made, i tried it anyway, and they all ate a few spoonfuls... same as before. had to scruff them to start, then just held them as they licked the spoon clean. they were entirely refusing to eat from a plate in their cage, except FINALLY with this new soupie paste, arrietty (my oldest and a very tiny runt) ate a bit herself from the plate! and then so did snickerdoodle (the leader of our business and a fluffy war machine)! oatmeal (my biggest guy, a big squishy lump) still seems meh, but he has no problem eating big chunks from the spoon, so. pippin (my second youngest, in my icon) on the other hand... began violently throwing up last night. he threw up the mush mixture he'd been eating for two days. i thought maybe the kibble/meat mix was finally hurting his tummy, until half an hour ago he threw up every bit of soupie paste he'd eaten as well. he was eating the meaty mush for a while with no problem... i feel like it began after i added the beef tongue last night. there is some beef tongue in this soupie mix too, again, as the hearts aren't here yet. could a beef allergy be making him throw up? i'm worried because he's basically barely had anything since last night as he's thrown it all up. should i just give him some kibble to make sure he's got some nutrition, or try something without any beef? also: everyone's poops have been very small and very strange. oatmeal just had yellow liquid poo earlier. the baby has mushy poo that stinks horribly, but i've found most babies i've had, were this way. she is also transitioning in her body still, as she was on kibbles three days ago before she came here, even if she is already eating bone in meats without a single problem. oh, and i feel like absolutely everything stinks. there is a weird stink i cannot seem to escape. i don't think it's the meats, they don't seem to have any smell. it might just be the nasty baby poos penetrating everything even though i clean them constantly. sorry for the wall of text. any advice or insight is welcome. here is snickerdoodle eating the soupie paste on her own! (EDIT: nevermind, the image won't upload?!)
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 22:55:49 GMT -5
could a beef allergy be making him throw up? i'm worried because he's basically barely had anything since last night as he's thrown it all up. should i just give him some kibble to make sure he's got some nutrition, or try something without any beef? Read more: holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/19328/arrietty-snickerdoodle-oatmeal-pippins-switch#ixzz3ojpc05q5They say beef is next allergen to chicken. But to make sure it is beef,you would need to feed only beef not other things as well. So like in the morning after she has slept off her supper, u can try. If she throws up after that meal, maybe so. To see if your ferret has sensitivity to a meat, you would feed that meat only for a couple days or so. When my senior eats chicken --- even with bone in, she has a pool of diarrhea with little bones in it.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2015 2:30:53 GMT -5
here are my ferrets today, BTW snickerdoodle pippin arrietty oatmeal cookies
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2015 20:19:08 GMT -5
so i've made a new soupie, with 2 chicken hearts, 7 entirely bone-in chicken wings, half a turkey liver, and a piece of lamb kidney, but it was ridiculously hard with my tiny food processor which kept shorting out. so i'm off to try to find a new one.
the four snobs are still eating but very reluctantly. small gooey poops. pippin had some kibble last night since i was worried he just wasn't eating enough and was having some reaction to the beef.
my problem now is i feel like they've all stopped drinking... the water levels aren't going down in their bowls at all. they are definitely dehydrated, their scruffs are stiff as a board. i gave them some water with a syringe just because i am so worried about it.
cookies is of course, doing perfectly!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2015 11:16:15 GMT -5
things are better today, pippin isn't puking still, they are drinking more, i mixed up tons of soupie and froze it. am i doing something wrong on the forum? i'm finding it really hard to get feedback. i don't have enough posts to request a mentor so i am not sure how to get advice
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2015 21:00:15 GMT -5
I'm sorry you haven't gotten responses. You aren't doing anything wrong, I think it's just the weekend and people are busy. I know I posted to your original intro thread. Go ahead and sign up for a Mentor now. We have a waiting list which is about to get shorter and you'll easily have your 15 posts by then. The fuzzies are gorgeous. They all look healthy and beautiful. I'll answer your questions and keep an eye out on your posting. cookies is a baby and already fully transitioned after three days living with me. she's already eaten two complete chicken wings (and half of the bones from them, some are still being knawed at), chicken liver and gizzard, and lots of beef tongue for some taurine (as of tomorrow i'll have turkey and chicken hearts).
Excellent. Cookie is a Tummy with Teeth and will simply eat tons and tons. She'll eat often through out the day and won't slow down for a few months. You might expect her to eat as much as 12 -14 ounces in a day. gfountain has a little girl who almost ate her out of house and home. I tagged her to put her two cents in. If you want a quicker response, tag someone. Hover your cursor over their username to see how it is spelled. Then put an @sign in front with no space. If you post and the name shows up in bold, you have done it correctly. Then they receive a notification. For baby questions, breeders like Heather, crazylady or NancyL are good resources. Any of the Mentors will be happy to help. You can see on our profile on the left who is a Mentor. I'm a Mentor and Admin, Sherry is our Head Honcho and Hurricanekatt is in charge of the Mentoring program. We have several very good Mentors in Training and they love to help. Tag @machan or @sveta They are both great. so she's good. all i need for her is a white board to write her menu on, and to figure out a good system to store everything i bought, because my freezer is packed and i have MORE meat coming tomorrow. i read not to get more than 6 months of meat or it may begin to get freezer burn. chicken wings/liver/gizzard is ridiculously easy for me to get (i live in japan) but i have to order the rest online, so i ordered a surplus of meat to freeze so i'll always have it on hand.
You're living off base and probably limited on freezer space as you mentioned. What I do is to prepare meals in baggies and then put them in bins that are marked. I have a whiteboard on my fridge that shows what days are Bone In, Muscle meat or organs days. I just look at it and pull something out to defrost in the fridge for the morning. Then in the morning, I pull out dinner and put it in the fridge to defrost. I leave food out for my five free roam ferrets at all times. Here is my freezer. We have an extra one in the laundry room: my four little snobs have been off their kibble for a few days. i mushed kibble up with some minced chicken and they ate that from my hand, so i added some meat slivers, crushed egg shells, liver, gizzard and thigh meat, and beef tongue, and they ate those too. very reluctantly, and had to be scruffed at first, but then would usually eat about a spoonful each time i held them, even after i stopped scruffing and just held them.
Hand feeding and sitting with them is important in the beginning. They simply don't recognize new food as food. You won't always have to do this but it is important in the beginning. They trust you and will move along faster when they feel secure and you're being there is part of that. I'm not a fan of scruffing especially for females who really don't like it. What works better for me is to put someone on my lap and offer them some from a spoon. Once they lick that off, then lower the spoon to the plate and let them lick it off the spoon and remove the spoon and sit with them. Then pick up another and try with them. pippin (my second youngest, in my icon) on the other hand... began violently throwing up last night.
Usually if someone has an allergy or intolerance to food, it shows up in their poops. The most common cause of throwing up is simply eating too fast. They gobble down the food and then throw it back up. Keep an eye on Pippin and if it happens again after a beef meal, then we should consider keeping him off of beef for a bit and see if he throws up at all again. After he has thrown up, he may be hungry again so do try something milder on his tummy like a chicken soupie. We want them to have one red meat meal a week. It's high in Iron and Vitamin B. also: everyone's poops have been very small and very strange. oatmeal just had yellow liquid poo earlier. the baby has mushy poo that stinks horribly, but i've found most babies i've had, were this way. she is also transitioning in her body still, as she was on kibbles three days ago before she came here, even if she is already eating bone in meats without a single problem.
Funky poops are normal during a switch. You will see dark loose poops after organ meals, eggy poops after eggs, seedy looking poops if they have too much fat like chicken skin. Green poops may mean stress but they can also occur with new proteins and so will a mucousy poop. It's a natural body protection for a new food passing through too quickly. Fat equals energy for ferrets, so you want fatty cuts for them. It's just that sometimes they have a little more than they can digest. Here is a poop chart. Poop patrol is an important part of ferrenting. Their poops will tell us alot about their health and well being: holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/2469/poop-chartoh, and i feel like absolutely everything stinks. there is a weird stink i cannot seem to escape. i don't think it's the meats, they don't seem to have any smell. it might just be the nasty baby poos penetrating everything even though i clean them constantly.
Their bodies are detoxing from the kibble. All that filler in kibble is just wasted. They are getting nutrients now and their little bodies know that and so they go through a detox. Shortly their poops will be smaller and less smelly. Your ferrets will also smell better and will develop a grape kool-aid smell. my problem now is i feel like they've all stopped drinking... the water levels aren't going down in their bowls at all. they are definitely dehydrated, their scruffs are stiff as a board. i gave them some water with a syringe just because i am so worried about it.
Raw fed ferrets will drink less than kibble fed ferrets because meat is moist. They simpy don't need as much water as they do on kibble. If you were seeing signs of dehydration than it is smart to pay attention to that because it can be dangerous for ferrets. You mentioned their skin was not going back into place and that is a sign of dehydration but it's better now? Could the water have tasted funny for a few days. Was any construction going on around you? If you're worried, thin their soupie down some. I hope this helps. Again, I apologize for your lack of responses. I'll make sure to stay on top of this and that you get your answers until you are assigned your own Mentor. I was Air Force for twenty years. I never made it to Japan but did get to see Okinawa and spent a year in Korea. Are you military or married to a service member? Hugs to all Five of the Fuzzies. Tell them they are doing so well and so are you. It's a little scarey at first and there is much to learn but it really will pay off and you will not only build a lovely bond but have happy and healthy ferrets and we all know how much fun that is. :wave3:
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2015 23:34:37 GMT -5
Hi! I'm Machan! @poncesmom has given you a lot of great information there. Other than people possibly being busy for the weekend, I would also say we have people from all over the world. I'm from Australia so the times are quite different and in fact I'm ahead in time compared to the most of the world. (Its Sunday 18th hahaha) It's so great you decided to start a switching thread! There will always be someone to reply if you ever need help any time along your switch until you get a mentor. (You signed up right? ) All five of your ferrets sound wonderful! I love the names. Did you get Arriety from the anime? (I loved that studio ghibli movie!) It also sounds fantastic that they are all in good health. i read not to get more than 6 months of meat or it may begin to get freezer burn. chicken wings/liver/gizzard is ridiculously easy for me to get (i live in japan) but i have to order the rest online, so i ordered a surplus of meat to freeze so i'll always have it on hand.Freezer burn is a condition that occurs when frozen food has been damaged by dehydration and oxidation, due to air reaching the food. It is generally caused by food not being securely wrapped in air-tight packaging. Raw meat is generally good in the freezer for about 6-7 months before you want to replace it for freshness reasons only. I bought Turkey necks and duck wings in bulk which are literally good for another 6 months. But then again I have 3 ferrets and it really depends on how much your ferrets eat. I love Japan! I studied Japanese for a couple or so years on and off but am yet to visit. It must be wonderful. the meat i've got right now: chicken gizzard, heart, liver, wing, thigh, leg turkey kidney, heart, liver square chunks of goat meat with bone (i can only really get this if i go on the air force base, which i did yesterday!) beef tongue and liver lamb kidney
What a wonderful variety there! Thats about 5 proteins. It's usually not recommended that you mix kibble with raw due to bacteria. It may also cause a stomach upset. "Although the cooking process kills bacteria in the ingredients, the final product can pick up more bacteria during the subsequent drying, coating, and packaging process. Some experts warn that getting dry food wet can allow the bacteria on the surface to multiply and make pets sick. do not mix dry food with water, milk, canned food, or other liquids. " Remove the kibble a few hours before feeding raw. They also need to get used to not having kibble readily available. Throwing up could be from eating too fast like Poncesmom had said. The smell is normal. The poops are horrible during the switching process since they're detoxing. It passes. To upload a picture on your computer. Go to upload the photo. Once it is uploaded you can copy the 'Direct Link" Then come back here and click on the little picture frame thingy in the bar above. Put the direct link in there and click insert image. OR you can use the Hotlink for Forums and simply paste it here. It will have a thumbnail though, but its useful. To upload on your mobile, Tapatalk is a good app and you can directly upload a photo from it to this forum.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2015 16:14:07 GMT -5
@denkimouse How are they all doing now?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2015 22:08:42 GMT -5
thank you everyone for your replies!! i feel a lot more confident now about everything!! here is an update: they're all doing so well!! the baby is demolishing her meals of chicken wings/legs, hearts, and other organs. she ate an entire chicken leg (only chewed the bone though), half a liver and half a kidney in ONE NIGHT. these things together were about as big as her, but they were gone in the morning (and turned into very gross smelling poo). her poo does smell abominable, but i know from expierience that all babies have this problem. i am worried she's not eating the bones as much, and not getting enough calcium, though she does chew on them. then she drags them into the litter box and gets them disgusting. babies have no manners. the snobs aren't so snobby now. they are eating the meaty cubes of soupie. i've even been putting them in frozen and they knaw away at the meatsicles! they eat only some of the bones, there's tiny slivers of bone left behind, but they are eating them. they all have tons of energy, and are crazy as ever. i've confirmed all of them eating except for pippin who is still being picky, but he must be eating when i'm not looking as he has a ton of energy. he has not puked on my new soupie mixture, so it was either the beef, or that it was so new. poops are small and soft but not liquid and not that strange looking. there is also no smell from the adults. so they are switched to raw, officially, i think though my four adults will take a bit longer before they are chomping on chicken wings...the soupie mixture i made them is basically sticky chunks, i can't even quite call it a paste. i've included some pics of my meat cubes. they are really small, but it seems right now one per ferret for each meal is enough that they don't eat it so fast they still seem hungry, but they also don't leave it to rot beyond half a day. what do you think should be my next step? i was thinking of finishing this batch of soupie and towards the end adding some bigger chunks of meat...? i've got goat meaty bone chunks in the freezer i want to mix into the next soupie batch, and beef liver also. the current soupie mix is just chicken, turkey and some lamb kidney i added for some different protein/a different organ. @machan: arrietty is named after arrietty from the borrowers/and the miyazaki movie also what is your haru named after? i love the name haru!! @poncesmom: thank you!! your freezer is so organized. i want to also look into getting a mini freezer also for them, though i am not sure where i could keep it, hmm... i will think about signing up for a mentor also, though i am a little shy i might do something wrong. here are my meatsicles and pippin you can see they are pretty small.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2015 7:18:29 GMT -5
Good Morning the baby is demolishing her meals of chicken wings/legs, hearts, and other organs. she ate an entire chicken leg (only chewed the bone though), half a liver and half a kidney in ONE NIGHT. these things together were about as big as her, but they were gone in the morning (and turned into very gross smelling poo).
Good for her. She has quite an appetite and that's why we call babies Tummies with Teeth. Her baby poos will stop smelling soon enough. Ferret poo on raw is much nicer than kibble poo. It's a natural instinct to drag food into poop to keep predators from smelling it. Nasty but they don't seem to mind. Organ poops will always be looser and a touch more smelly, so don't panic on organ days. You might consider picking up some Bonemeal powder for her. The NOW brand is human grade and has no added sweeteners. You can dust her food with it and then mix it in. She needs the extra calcium for growing bones. Watch her poops and if they are loose, she needs a little extra. If they are too firm, white and chalky then she needs a bit less. If you can find green tripe and if you can convince her to eat that nasty smelly stuff, it's very good for growing babies. Breeders will often feed it until they are about 18 months. so they are switched to raw, officially, i think though my four adults will take a bit longer before they are chomping on chicken wings...the soupie mixture i made them is basically sticky chunks, i can't even quite call it a paste. i've included some pics of my meat cubes. they are really small, but it seems right now one per ferret for each meal is enough that they don't eat it so fast they still seem hungry, but they also don't leave it to rot beyond half a day.
what do you think should be my next step?
Your next step will be to get them on a balanced menu, eating chunks and bones and moving away from the soupie. I like my Liver plus other Organ meal to be a soupie. It's nice to keep them familiar with soup. It's easier to nourish a sick fuzzie with soup. Just like us, soup tastes good when you are sick. The Frankenprey menu looks like this: Monday am: edible bone in meat Monday pm: edible bone in meat (or muscle)* Tuesday am: edible bone in meat Tuesday pm: muscle meat Wednesday am: edible bone in meat Wednesday pm: heart Thursday am: edible bone in meat Thursday pm: edible bone in meat (or muscle)* Friday am: edible bone in meat Friday pm: ½ heart + ¼ liver + ¼ other organ Saturday am: edible bone in meat Saturday pm: muscle meat Sunday am: edible bone in meat Sunday pm: ½ liver + ½ other organ Edible bone in meat: is just that, meat with bone included. It is NOT bones with just a bit of meat on them (ie: most of the meat removed). If you fed bones like this you will throw the balance of the menu off. See below for acceptable bone in meats
chicken: any / all, quail: any / all, rabbit: any / all, turkey: necks, ribs, and wing tips, duck: neck, ribs, and wing tips. pork: button bones, rib ends, Cornish game hen: any / all.
Any commercial frozen raw with 10% to 15% ground bone. Any freeze dried raw with 10%-15% ground bone.
*These two meals can be either bone-in or muscle meat depending on the consistency of your ferret’s poop. Dry, chalky and firm you should reduce the bone-in meals and feed muscle meat instead. Loose, unformed and overly liquid, increase the bone-in meals. Do not change the menu beyond these two optional meals or you could affect the nutritional balance of the diet. Muscle meat: any heart meat. Chicken (including gizzard), turkey, duck, lamb, goat, beef, Cornish Game Hen (counts as chicken), venison, elk, basically any meat (unaltered such as smoked, pickled or injected with salt) without bone.
*heart is considered a muscle meat but is ABSOLUTELY necessary as it is their primary source of taurine. Lack of taurine in their diet can lead to eyesight problems and other issues. Organ meat: Liver, kidney, thymus, pancreas, reproductive organs, lung, brain, basically any part of the body that secretes. Fat is an important part of a carnivore's diet as this is where they get their energy. It works for them in the same way carbs do for humans. Make sure to pick fattier cuts over leaner cuts when buying your meat (thigh vs. breast, shoulder vs. tenderloin, etc)
Variety For optimal health a minimum (more is preferable) of 3 different proteins need to be in the diet. At least one of the minimum 3 proteins needs to be something other than: chicken, rabbit, cornish game hen or fish. This is to ensure enough Vitamin B, Iron and a good base of Taurine in the diet (most Taurine comes from the heart in the diet however).
Here is a copy of my first menu. I was nervous about it and made a chart to help me: A Mentor can be a great help. Don't be shy about signing up. We have a waiting list so you may already be doing everything properly but it never hurts to work with a Mentor and make sure that you have a balanced menu and understand why you are feeding what you feed. There are important things to learn about feeding raw like for example, Liver must only be 5 percent of their weekly menu. Liver is full of Vitamin A and is fat soluable. It remains in their system and we don't want it to build up to toxic levels. Also, you want to know the importance of Taurine in a Ferret's diet. Taurine is essential and you should be aware of that and know not to skip or leave out Taurine which needs to be replenished. You're off to such a good start and doing so well. Very nice job ferrenting. :thumbsup:
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2015 22:06:30 GMT -5
Hello,
Sorry for the late response. I'll read this thread tomorrow, and Thursday. See if I can add anything. Though Machan and Steph seem to be pretty thorough.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2015 3:16:26 GMT -5
well well well.... i put some smashed up chicken ribs in the cage in one plate with the soupie theyve been devouring on the other... look which side arrietty and oatmeal dug into! crunching the bones and all. still worried they might not be drinking enough. i just don't see the water level going down much and their scruffs don't bounce back. but for now, things are still going well. i have enough soupie for another few weeks and i was getting ready to make another batch soon, but it might not be needed? at least i can use the ice cube trays to make organ soupie for them, and see if they will take it. are there any good recipes around for a tasty organ soupie? thank you everyone!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2015 0:30:21 GMT -5
we are not having any problems here
|
|