Todays catch at the supermarket yielded Pork Kidneys, boston pork shoulder steaks and chicken thigh, heart and liver. I've got everything except the liver portioned out into individual baggies. I'm thinking about making less soup this time and making more slivers. I figure if I have it already slivered out and less soupie I will be less likely to just toss some soupie in there for ease of access on my account. Will be dropping the boys to beef once a week because I think that the richness of the beef is what is making Poco sick. So, hopefully that will stop him from vomiting.
Off to take the boys for a walk, then chicken soupie and slivers for lunch!
I'm excited to see what they think of the pork. It might help to video Poco on his next beef meal. I'm curious to see how he eats beef. I do think it's a good idea to cut back on the beef and we'll see if he experiences anymore vomiting.
Did they have fun on their walk and how was lunch?
I have a video of him eating the beef but photo bucket won't let me load it for some reason.
The walk yielded little to no results lol Poco insisted we come back home. He wasn't having it. Shinchi loved every second of it and wanted to wander. Perhaps I will take him tomorrow just by himself and see what happens.
Got back home and gave the boys soupie with no added water. They ate it all. Then gave them thigh slivers and while Poco needed a dip in the egg for his first bite he ate the rest with no hesitation. Shinchi didn't need the egg. He was all for it. They both are a good amount of slivers.
:wave3: Good Evening. It sounds like you guys are doing so well!
Poco didn't like his walkie? He might have been a bit nervous. My Roamy always insists on going back to the door and I have to open it and let him know that the inside is still there. Then he will go back for a walk and then we do the door thing again a few more times.
Everyone else just enjoys their walk. Roamy is the protector and I think he wants to make sure everyone can get home again.
You could try holding Poco for a few walks and just let him get use to all the new noises and smells. Then put him on the ground and sit with him while he wanders around on the leash and wraps you up in it.
That's excellent about the slivers. If Poco likes his dipped in egg then do that for his first bites of new food. You've learned how to prepare his meals and that will be very helpful in moving him along. Shinchi did excellent also. They both are really right where they should be.
Give both Poco and Shinchi a big hug and I'll post more again in the morning. :thumbsup: Tell your fuzzies they are lucky to have such a good Ferrent.
Thanks! I will hug and love them all up! As far as the walks go-I don't know really. He's always been the one that wants to be held when the weather is too hot or too cold. He's a big wimp! However, he usually likes his walks. Yesterday was just a big fat nope. I've got lots of videos and pictures that I want to overload you with. Finally got them off of my phone in the original format so that I can upload them to photobucket then here. Hopefully it will work. Once they do, There will be one big post with all the pictures and videos in one go so that you don't have to scroll through a bunch of pages hehe.
Today is Thursday, so let's do a small lesson and then tomorrow I will do a short quiz to see if you understand some of the basics that we have talked about since we began. Here is some information on What defines a Nutritional Organ:
What Defines a NUTRITIONAL organ meat? This is a very important question, and something that causes a lot of confusion. Many structures that are considered “organs” anatomically are NOT considered Organ Meat nutritionally. Nutritional Organs are Major Hormone-Secreting Tissues: Liver Kidney Spleen Pancreas Gallbladder Brain Major glands (thymus, thyroid, parathyroid) Uterus Testicles
Pork Stomach Lining** (pork stomach is an organ, but it is lower in nutrients than the others listed) Tripe is the stomach of ruminating animals (usually Beef). White tripe has all of the nutrients bleached out of it and should not be fed. Green tripe is high in nutrients but smells horrid and usually ferrets won’t go near it so it’s really not worth the bother. If your ferrets will eat it, more power to you.
I spoke to a breeder in August when I met with several breeders. Heather McNally runs Devon County Ferrets and when she is in breeding season has a ferret cam which is so much fun to watch. She uses green tripe because it has the perfect blend of Calcium to Phosphorus and gives her growing babies their much needed calcium. She gives her Breeders extra calcium until they are 18 months old. Chitterlings (pork small intestine): similar to stomach this is an organ but is low in nutrients compared to the others and usually picked out of whole prey so there isn’t much benefit to feeding it. This is a Southern food as you probably know. I have not tried them, have you? NON-Organ meats Gizzards – gizzards are comprised of primarily muscle tissue and tendon, nutritionally they are a muscle meat source. Great for cleaning teeth.
Tongue – the tongue is comprised of muscle and mucous/salivary glands. These glands secrete mucous and digestive enzymes but NO hormones. The sublingual tonsils are at the very back of the tongue and are a lymphoid tissue (immune system). These tonsils are way at the back, so IF they are included on your purchased tongue, they are included in the whole tongue piece. Nutritionally tongue is a muscle meat source.
Lungs- lungs do not secrete hormones, they are comprised of connective tissue and endothelium. They are not considered a true “organ” as far as raw diet is concerned. They are however a GREAT part of a raw diet and are very high in Iron and Vitamin B12, as well as other B Vitamins. Definitely a good thing to feed if you have access.
And of course, Heart is a muscle meat and our primary source for Taurine. It's important to understand the difference between muscle meats and organs. It's also easy to confuse Heart as an organ and understandable but it is important to make that difference when planning your menu.
On the Frankenprey Diet, Shinchi and Poco will have two meals of organ per week. One Liver plus another Organ One 1/4 portion of Liver plus 1/4 portion of the Other Organ and a half portion of Heart (muscle meat).
Liver is limited to Five percent of what they eat in one week. This is because of the Vitamin A in liver. Vitamin A is Fat soluable and remains in their system. Over time it can build up to a toxic level, so we are careful in our portions.
The Other Organ is also Five percent of what they eat in one week.
I don't have any questions on the Organ portion, however I am a failure at math. I love it when I know what I'm doing but I have a hard time setting up the equation. So, can you help me out with the whole 5% and 10% of liver and heart vs how much they weigh? Like right now, I am feeding whatever I can get them to eat. Yesterday I blended up liver and egg. They devoured it. This morning I blended up liver and heart and poured it on the plate then dumped a little bit of chicken soupie in the middle so that at some point they would have to engage in both textures as the heart and liver was thinner since I stopped adding water to their soupie (they were frozen when I blended them so I added a bit of water).
So if going by the plan you have made up for me at the moment- Monday a.m. Bone In Chicken wings p.m. Bone In Chicken wings
Tuesday a.m. Muscle Meat Duck Hearts. p.m. Bone In Duck wings
Wednesday a.m. Muscle meat Ground beef or Beef Chuck pieces. This is a good meal to add an egg over the top of it. p.m. Muscle Meat Turkey preferably dark meat or even ground turkey is great.
Thursday a.m. Organs Pork Liver plus Pork Organ p.m. Bone In Cornish game hen
Friday a.m. Bone In The other half of the Cornish Game Hen p.m. Muscle Meat duck gizzards
Saturday a.m. Muscle meat Lamb ( a red meat) p.m. Bone In Duck Wings
Sunday a.m. Bone In Pork buttons p.m. Organ meal 1/4 portion of Pork Liver plus 1/4 portion of Pork brains plus a half meal of Pork heart.
A menu like this will give you: 7 proteins 8 Bone In meals 4 Muscle meat meals 2 Organ meals
So my question is, if They need 10% heart and 5% liver and one of those meals can be heart AND liver together, how in the world do I portion out their food so that I don't give them too much liver and not enough heart? Because while they will take the heart slivers from me, If they are too big, Poco will only eat a little bit of one sliver and shinchi will eat 2 or 3 slivers (say I cute the heart long ways into 4 quadrants). Shinchi still wont eat a whole heart and Poco only eats 1/4 (if that) of it. So between them at the moment they may eat 1 whole heart. so, I know it's possible in the future that they will each eat 1 heart a piece during the heart meals, however, until that happens, should I just make liver and heart paste like I did this morning? What are the portions I should use? This morning it was 1oz heart (3 hearts) and 2oz liver with about 1/8th Cup of water.
This was absolutely the hardest thing for me. I follow rules and so when they say five percent or ten percent then I take it very literally.
The thing about it is that in the wild they simply don't stop eating if they have reached five percent of their liver intake for the week. We know that. Add to that you get one who loves to eat organs and one who is picky and worrying about it will make your head hurt. This will all seem easier as you go along but for now let me work out the numbers for you.
What you will do is base the amount on what they eat in one week.
You have the two boys who on average will eat 3-4 ounces a day. That means a little more in the winter and a little less in the spring. Together the boys eat 6-8 ounces a day. Average it out to six ounces a day for both boys.
That leaves room for each to eat a little more one day and a little less another day. We'll work off of six ounces a day to base the organ amounts on. Then we'll do the Heart (muscle meat) amounts.
6 ounces times 7 equals 42 ounces. Base your numbers on 42 ounces and you will be fine.
That means in one week, you will be serving them: 2.1 ounces of liver and 2.1 ounces of the Other Organ a week.
They will then eat ten percent in Heart which is 4.2 ounces of heart for the boys.
Now remember that we have to divide this into two meals. One organ meal is a 3/4 portion of liver and other organ.
Your second organ meal is 1/4 portion of liver and 1/4 portion other organ and a half portion of heart. So to do the numbers for you, your organ meals will look like this:
Day 1 Organ meal: 1.5 ounces of Liver plus 1.5 ounces of the Other Organ
This isn't a big meal so what you can do is on this day, make a soupie with some chicken or other protein. It's nice to give them soupie and keep them use to eat soup. They will get their organ amounts and also have enough to eat until dinner. Follow an organ meal with a nice Bone In meal to help firm up loose organ poops.
You can decide what days are best for organs based on your schedule and how they eat. I do organ meals a few days apart and always for breakfast.
Day Two Organ meal is 1/4 portion of Liver plus 1/4 portion of Other organ plus a half meal of Heart. Your second organ meal will be: a half ounce of Liver plus a half ounce of Other Organ plus 1.1 ounces of Heart.
At first you might want to put the organs and heart on the scale but soon enough you will be able to eye it out.
Organ days may need a snack or you do the soupie for more food for them, so they don't go hungry until dinner.
While you want to watch the liver amounts because of the Vitamin A, Heart is different because that gets eliminated from their system and can easily be replenished and we don't worry about them overeating Heart and having too much Taurine.
Now we will keep talking about this off and on until you are comfortable with it. That's why I brought it up early in our switch.
Once they are on Frankenprey then we want you to have a good understanding. Until then, don't stress over it and we just want to work on their learning about new foods and eating slivers. The soupie keeps them balanced until their next step of their transition.
By the way, I am numerically challenged also and completely understand how this seems tough at first.
So my question is, if They need 10% heart and 5% liver and one of those meals can be heart AND liver together, how in the world do I portion out their food so that I don't give them too much liver and not enough heart?
You will put out the amounts that I wrote down and keep an eye on them to make sure that both eat. By using a soupie for organs, it is all mixed up and they have no choice but to eat everything.
On their Heart meal which I put down as Tuesday, for awhile you will watch them eat and make sure that they both eat their hearts. Most ferrets will happily eat hearts after a bit and so don't worry about how they eat now. Because while they will take the heart slivers from me, If they are too big, Poco will only eat a little bit of one sliver and shinchi will eat 2 or 3 slivers (say I cute the heart long ways into 4 quadrants). Shinchi still wont eat a whole heart and Poco only eats 1/4 (if that) of it. So between them at the moment they may eat 1 whole heart. so, I know it's possible in the future that they will each eat 1 heart a piece during the heart meals, however, until that happens, should I just make liver and heart paste like I did this morning?
You can do that and that is what I mean when I talk about organ/heart soup.
What are the portions I should use? This morning it was 1oz heart (3 hearts) and 2oz liver with about 1/8th Cup of water.
First don't worry about your learning curve. Imbalances take awhile to occur, and I mean months not days. Remember though that heart is easily eliminated and easily replenished so you really want to keep your heart amount higher than your liver amount. In other words for your next batch, do 2 ounces of heart and 1 ounce of liver. We're averaging all this out. So don't get upset over Poco not eating enough one day and Shinchi eating more than Poco. As long as you stay within the correct numbers, they will average out what they eat and be fine.
You're doing well and asking all the normal questions. I will make sure that everything is balanced and that you are completely sure of organs and heart meals. Don't hesitate to keep asking questions until this is all clear in your mind. I took a full year just reading about this and making sure I was ready before I even signed up for a Mentor. You already have more confidence than I did and will be great at this. Does that help some and do you have any questions so far? :wave3:
Last Edit: Oct 22, 2015 12:48:03 GMT -5 by Deleted
OK, so a little bit about what has been happening. They boys are doing good-had to take Shinchi to the vet. Due to the close call we had with the heat stroke the other day, the heavy panting caused some irritation in his upper trachea. He is now on some low dose of pred and an antibiotic. He even did some teeth grinding while I was holding him so she knew that if it didn't show up on the xray (and nothing did) that the irritation was just under the jaw.
As far as the food goes, the little stinkers are putting up a fuss about moving paste soupie but I am determined not to let them stay on the soupie unless they need it. I currently have not made any more soupie and I'm not going to make any more unless it's organ soupie for the frankenprey menu. I've taken to blitzing the frozen meats in my ninja so that it doesn't turn to cream but more of a mince. Then whisk up an egg yolk and pour over it.
They don't seem to mind after they've gotten their bellies full but I am still having to hold them. Which again isn't that big of a deal until its 1am and I have to go to class at 8 am. Either way, I push through it. It is no big deal because I love them.
Last night I was irritated though because Poco was refusing to eat anything I put in front of him. So I picked him up, looked him in the eyes and said "If you don't eat I'm going to trade you in for a younger model!" He blinked and wriggled away from me and practically dove face first into the plate. hahaha
Ok, tried uploading the album every other way, but for some reason when I try to it doesn't work for me. So I'm going to link you to the ferret album I have on Photobucket so that you can just go to that and check out the videos if that is alright with you.
Poco understood you completely. It's funny but I really think they are capable of getting our message and understanding what we say to them.
I'm glad Shinchi is okay now. I wasn't able to be on FB much the last two days and really rely on the forum for updates. I will always find a way to be here every day. Mentoring takes place here so just keep posting their updates and I will always know what's going on. I'll be home all day tomorrow and will probably be online for the entire day.
Did the organ info help any? Are you starting to get a better feel for it. I'll post a short quiz tomorrow and we'll see if you are more comfortable with organs yet plus I will continue to explain it all through our thread and will repeat info to make sure it's clear.
Hugs to both boys and tell them I'm glad they're both okay and they really are lovely little fuzzies. :wave3:
I have very good news. @sveta will be joining us as a Mentor in Training. She'll wonderful, smart and you will like working with her.
Let's have our small quiz on organs. Ready?
1. Name 3 organs 2. Is Heart an organ or a muscle meat? 3. What percent if Liver in their weekly menu? 4. What percent is the "Other Organ"?. 5. Is Liver water soluable or fat soluable? What does this mean?
I hope your weekend was fun. Hugs to Shinchi and Poco. :wave3:
That's cool! Would love to have her! As far as the quiz goes..
1: liver, kidney, pancreas 2: heart is considered a muscle meat 3: liver is 5% of their weekly menu 4: the other organ is 5% of their weekly menu 5: liver is fat soluble which means that it builds up in their system and can become toxic over time.
Hope you have a great day!
Also, during shinchis treatment I'm going to forego the slivers. With Shinchis throat being swollen I noticed last night that he was hungry but barely eating anything. Just licking slowly at his food and being dramatic with swallowing. Once I added more water he and Poco ate all of their food within minutes. I'm not sure but it feels like to me that they are losing more weight trying to move on to slivers than gaining. So hopefully if I keep doing the soupie for another few weeks they will actually gain more so that when we start on the slivers again they will have more weight to sustain them through the sliver part.
It's only another 2 weeks.
I'm worried about them. They like raw meat buy every single time I leave the slivers in their cage it goes bad.
When I start again should I only give them slivers before their soupie and no slivers for their cage and just keep increasing the amount of slivers? For example:
Monday: Shinchi and Poco each get 2 slivers of heart and 2 slivers of thigh and 1oz each of soupie.
I'm happy to help mentor you, let me just catch up with what you have been doing recently
The quiz answers are all correct
While Shinchi's throat is irritated let him have the soupie. Then the menu you posted about increasing the slivers seems very logical about getting them up to speed on the slivers. But you might try to see what the ferrets tell you as well if they scarf down the 4 slivers, and next day you give them 8 and they scarf them down as well then you can proceed faster than you planned and the other way around
I didn't catch on; did you figure out if Poco is allergic or sensitive to beef. or is he just a bit of glutton that eats too fast?
Hello Sveta! Welcome to the program!! I agree with you with the slivers math! Shinchi is really good at eating his slivers. It's Poco that has an issue.
He's so picky. For example, if they have soupie they will eat it all and only leave the little chunks that didn't get blended. If I offer them to Shinchi he will eat them but Poco I try and he just doesn't want it unless it has egg on it.
The problem with that is they can't have egg every day. Can they?
As far as the beef, he isn't allergic to it that I know of. He's only had it twice and both times he's thrown up. But the second time wasn't anywhere near as bad as the first.
I think it's just the richness of the liver and beef heart in the soupie so I plan on watering it really down next time. If he gets sick again I will try mixing it with chicken or pork.