Spaghetti and Bruce's transition

[Deleted]

My head is spinning with information at the moment. I've been reading through the files over the last couple of days, and I have convinced my husband to try the switch for our fuzzbutts. I am 100% in it and will do it myself if needed.
I should probably give you some info about my babies. Spaghetti is 6 and has insulinoma. Earlier this year he also injured his cruciate ligament and was on cage rest for a couple of months his energy level is very low, and my vet seems to think this is as good as it gets(which i am not willing to accept, and considering finding a new vet) and is they are not supporters of raw diets. Bruce is 4, and i already see his energy lowering, but still plays plenty. They are newly(just this week) upgraded to free roam fuzzbutts, except for at night.
My questions are,
1. Where does egg fit into the frankenprey menu? Is it more of a treat? And I understand that either the white or yolk is not okay for them to eat alone?
2. Where does Salmon oil fit in? Is that also more of a treat instead of ferretone? If so, how much can i give? Also what kind of salmon oil? I baught the cat version of the grizzly's because i understand that a ferrets diet is closer to that of a cat's, but also because the other brand of salmon oil they had, was for dogs and had other ingredients.
3. Because Spaghetti has insulinoma, once switched, I will simply have to make sure that he always has access to food? I'm concerned that Bruce will eat all of his and then whatever is left, leaving Spaghetti with nothing between meals.
4. What do you do during the switch to ensure a ferret with insulinoma has constant access to food?
5. Can i use Stella & Chewy's frozen to make a soupie to try and start getting them used to meat? Or is it not balanced enough?
I think that's all i have for now.
Thank you!

[Deleted]

Hi and Welcome to the HFF

I know you must love your little fuzzies since you are looking for information to help them.
The reading can be a bit overwhelming at first. It helps to keep asking questions and read as you go along or realize you need more information about something that you aren't sure of.

I'm sorry about Spaghetti's Insulinoma. If you stay on top of that and work to keep his Blood Glucose levels even, you will have more time with him. There is alot of really good info here and alot of very experienced ferrents to help you.
Bruce is four, does he have any health issue? Are he and Spaghetti bonded?

I'll happily answer your questions and so will others.

1. Egg is wonderful for them. It's high in the Omega Fatty acids.
It's also a great help during grooming season when they can ingest a fair amount of fur.
A whole egg per ferret a week is good for them.
What I do with egg is to add an egg with a muscle meat meal like beef.
It can be a treat on it's own or a snack on organ meal days.

Here is a very good discussion on Egg:

holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/3811/raw-eggs-safe

2. Salmon oil can be used as a treat or a training aid. A drop on their tummy will also make clipping nails easier.
It's wonderful for them, filled with the Omega Fatty Acids and they love it.

Fish in general will make for looser poops, so limit oil to 1/3 tsp every 3 days.
Most of us use the Grizzly Salmon Oil. It's wild salmon oil and not farm raised. Human grade is preferable.
A small note on Ferretone. It's not recommended. It contains the Cancer causing agents BHA/BHT.

holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/15109/oil-supplements-little-information

3. Spaghetti should have access to food at all times. He will need to eat when to keep his BG steady and avoid highs and lows that put a strain on his system and increase the symptoms of Insulinoma.

Raw is safely left out.
Soupies are good for 6-8 hours or more. When it's cooler inside, it lasts longer than when it's warm inside.
Muscle meats depending on their size are good for 12-24 hours.
Bone In meats are good for 24 hours
Whole prey can be left out for 48 hours.

Bruce is younger and may need to eat more since he is more active.
The average grown ferret eats 3-4 ounces a day. They don't usually overeat. If their plate is clean, they can eat more.
If Bruce has a favorite food, he just might eat more than his share. You'll learn that by watching him.
Ferrets eat more in the Winter and less in the Spring.
They also eat more during a switch because they are making up for lost nutrients.

You'll learn to keep an eye out and just how much they normally eat as you go along.
In the beginning of a switch, we want you to work with them. They have imprinted on their kibble and will need some patience and coaxing to understand this new food is actually food.

4. You leave the food out for them.
 Just like I mentioned in question 3, raw food is safely left out.
How much time do they have out of the cage, now that they get some free roam time?

5. We suggest a soupie recipe here on the forum that is fully balanced.
8oz raw chicken thigh (raw)
1 oz raw chicken liver (or other raw liver)
1-2 raw chicken hearts (approximately 1 oz) or 1 oz other raw heart
½ to ¾ tsp bone meal or crushed egg shell
(air-dry egg shell then crush with mortar and pestle or in a clean coffee grinder)

Weigh out your meat and organs.
Add bone meal or egg shell.
Add water until about the consistency of thick cream (no thinner!!). Blending up in a food processor is the easiest.

You can freeze this in ice cube trays. Then when you are ready to serve, pop one or two out and add some warm water and voila! instant soupie.

I fed FDR for a year before I was ready to switch. We have some ferrents who use FDR to begin but I prefer to suggest starting with the soup recipe.

The key to their taking soupie is working with them.
You may be hand feeding them until they are use to this.
I like to sit on the floor with them. Put one in your lap and dab some of their lips and gums, they have to lick it off. Then you offer them some from a spoon.

This may take a few tries. Some ferrets are more stubborn than others and some take right to it.
Start on a weekend or when you are at home. Offer it several times through out the day until they are comfortable with it.

One thing that we suggest is to remove any kibble for about two hours prior.
Kibble is dry and digests at a different rate than soupie.
Feeding them together may cause an upset tummy. This isn't proven or known to be a fact but we have seen some cases and it's better to be safe than have a fuzzie with a tummy ache.

Switching them takes time and commitment on your part. They love and trust you so they will look to you for help during this switch.
 I've found ferrents who simply expect this to happen and work at it will have the best success.
Perhaps the ferrets pick up on that and can sense their ferrent is comfortable with the whole switch.

Take a look at some of the Mentor/Mentee official switching threads and you can see how the process works. We do ask that you don't post to those.
You can sign up for a Mentor to help you. We provide support and guidance and answer all your questions, keep your menu balanced and know tips and tricks to move the progress along.

Mentors are all volunteers who feed raw. We've studied and been approved. A Mentor in Training must graduate 3 Mentees to graduate and be a full Mentor.
There is no cost of course. We just ask that you be committed and willing to work with us.

holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/61/sign-mentoring-program

There is usually a waiting list for Mentors. You can begin your own switching thread on the Home page under Natural Diet, you will find Diet Transitions, (which is where this thread is) and that is where you would build your thread.

Put a subject title like Spaghetti and Bruce's switching thread and that will alert the Mentors to your switch and we will keep watch over it and offer advice and guidance.
Then when your Mentor is assigned, you are already on your way.

I hope this helps. Don't hesitate to ask questions. We all love to help.
The forum is a lovely place with kind and caring ferrents.
We love to talk about ferrets, share stories and pictures and talk about everything from litter box training to health and medical issues.

You'll be very pleased with seeing your two on a Natural Diet. They are healthier, have gorgeous soft fur and cleaner teeth. You also build a stronger bond with them and they reward you with more affection and cuddles. They will have smaller and less smelly poops.
 Ferrets on a raw diet will begin to smell like grape Kool-aid which is always amazing and fascinates friends and family.

Have fun and see you around the HFF
(dance)

[Deleted]

My head is spinning with information at the moment. I've been reading through the files over the last couple of days, and I have convinced my husband to try the switch for our fuzzbutts. I am 100% in it and will do it myself if needed.

I understand that feeling! Don't feel too overwhelmed with all the information. Let it slowly sink in over time. Remember, one step at a time. hehe.
You sound like me. I was the same before I got a mentor, @poncesmom, who answered all your questions with so many informative answers, basically covered everything so i'll go sit in the corner since I have no questions to answer now, just kidding. When I started on the forum, I had many sleepless nights because I was up all night reading threads and articles. The information is just so overwhelming for me, yet so incredibly intriguing to the point where I had this boost to learn everything and anything I could lay my eyes on. I'm so very happy that you decided this was the best diet choice for your ferrets. It truly is the BEST and only diet a ferret should be on. You're going to LOVE the outcomes. You'll even love the different stages of the transition. Including the funky detoxing poop stage. (sounds incredibly strange, but trust me, you will love every single moment of this transition.) It can be a hard road sometimes and you will possibly have some struggles here and there, but as long as you're 100% ready and determined then you will push through to the wonderful success. You already said you were 100%, so I'm certain you will do your very best and everyone here is here for a reason: To help you if help is needed, to guide you when you need guidance and the best of all, to cheer you on till you and your ferrets reach that goal.

I should probably give you some info about my babies. Spaghetti is 6 and has insulinoma. Earlier this year he also injured his cruciate ligament and was on cage rest for a couple of months his energy level is very low, and my vet seems to think this is as good as it gets(which i am not willing to accept, and considering finding a new vet) and is they are not supporters of raw diets. Bruce is 4, and i already see his energy lowering, but still plays plenty. They are newly(just this week) upgraded to free roam fuzzbutts, except for at night.
Yes yes! Give us lots of information~ Show us these two lovely ferrets in photos too! 
Oh no, Spaghetti ;A; Injuring his cruciate ligament sounds awfully painful. Poor little one. How is he now?
As for the vets, it does seem a majority of vets don't like to even think of the natural diets when it comes to obligate carnivores. It's not necessarily a negative thing, since they do all they can for both the human and pets. During their training and studies, they only learn so much and the rest is up to them to study during the many years being a vet. I also hear that alot of the time, they miss out on learning about ferret nutrition too. The best you can do is to learn everything you possibly can or even build up a file or journal to stand your ground with the vet. They can either accept the information or you both can simply agree to disagree etc etc. Don't worry too much. As long as you do your research and prove to them that you know what you're doing, then its no issue. Thats also another thing that would give a bad impression for the raw diet. Since raw diet needs to be balanced, they become concerned with beginners. An unbalanced diet can lead to many problems and even kill the ferret if done incorrectly (eg. too much liver= vitamin A toxicity = very sick ferret or even death), so you can really understand the vet's concern on raw diet when you think of it that way. Don't threat though, you sound like you're doing alot of research and are determined to transition them to a raw diet, so everything will be just fine. When in doubt, ask a mentor~ They're Ferret Guru's. 
 
Well... Since Poncesmom took all the questions, I guess I shall be off. 
(Poncesmom is a fantastic mentor by the way~)
OH and please, oh, please show us some photos of these two. I'm so eager to see them. HAHA.

[Deleted]

@nikkita969

I thought this might help you in your search to find a new vet.
We have two vet lists:

One is a list by Country and State.

holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/13638/vet-country-state

One is a list that is continually added to by new members who have had good experiences with their vets and posted the Vet's information. You'll need to scroll through it to find someone in your area.

holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/6/list-vet

If you can't find a Vet close to you on the lists, you are welcome to pm me with your general location. I will post it to the Admin/Mentors board and we will find someone in Canada close to you.

Thank you @machan for your kind words. (shy)

Machan is wonderful and is studying hard. She has alot of very good book knowledge and 3 adorable ferrets who are very lucky to have her as their ferrent.
:wave3:

[Deleted]

Bruce is four, does he have any health issue? Are he and Spaghetti bonded?

No health issues that we're aware of, and he's become more bonded to us in the last year or so. Our 6 y/o fenal, Alexis passed away, and Spaghetti's not much into playing anymore, especially after he was on cage rest for 2 months with his injury.

A small note on Ferretone. It's not recommended. It contains the Cancer causing agents

I haven't been using the last bottle i bought quite a while ago, and kept it around to help switch to Salmon Oil. I was using it for nail clippings. Bruce still comes running when i clip my own nails, expecting to get ferretone.
I actually offered them the Salmon Oil last night already. Bruce i itially thought i was trying to poison him, but took it after i rubbed some on his gums. Spaghetti took it himself after his evening Pred!

Thanks for answering my questions. Later last night I was already feeling more relaxed and confident with the information that i had taken in yesterday.

[Deleted]

Sept 24, 2015 13:41:41 GMT -5 @poncesmom said:

You'll need to scroll through it to find someone in your area.

Scroll, yes. That or you could use some keyboard shortcuts and press CTRL+F(Win) or Command+F(Mac) and type in a keyword in the find in page bar. (Shh its a secret)

Thank you @machan for your kind words. (shy)
You're very welcome! ;u;

Machan is wonderful and is studying hard. She has alot of very good book knowledge and 3 adorable ferrets who are very lucky to have her as their ferrent.

 Thank you~ I learn from the best.   
You actually made me think of something suddenly. I seem to have learnt alot about myself since bringing home those three dumplings. (Like, Put your mind to it, and you can do anything *insert superman flying pose here*) Wow. They are constantly surprising me.

Oh Oh. I just realised why i loved the name Spaghetti so much.

[Deleted]

Great! It really helps you understand everything as you begin feeding.

Mine took awhile to like Salmon oil. I didn't have any ferretone but I did learn to introduce it slowly by mixing it with an oil they liked.
A drop of Salmon oil in a teaspoon with two drops of oil they liked. Then two drop of Salmon oil to one drop of olive oil. You sort of sneak it in on them. They smell the familiar oil and by the time they realize that there is something new, they've tasted it.

I'm sorry about Alexis. Spaghetti may be grieving for her and combined with the Insulinoma, he's not feeling like playing.
I think if you can find a new vet and get his Blood glucose at a good steady level, he may have more energy and play more.

Feeding raw will help with that also. He won't have spikes in his BG.

Keep asking questions and we will help you and help get them on a healthier path.
We have alot of ferrents with experience with Insulinoma. I can always tag someone for you if you have specific questions about Insulinoma.

:wave3:

[Deleted]

Machan, good to know i'm not the only one a little overwhelmed by all this at first. I'm also new to forums, and trying to find my way around and what not, so i think that contributed to it.
I'm planning on printing off a bunch of the articles posted around the forums to have for reference when i talk to my vet about switching. I'm calling it my battle plan(only half joking) because they are openly not raw food tolerant.
I will have to post pictures tomorrow from my computer. It seems i can't from my phone, which is how i usually access the forum.

Poncesmom, I was actually periodically scrolling throught the vet listing at work today. I'm in Winnipeg, Manitoba and there's nothing listed. We have a ferret rescue here though, and their website lists a few places that treats ferrets.
I spoke to my horse's vet today, who I have a very good relationship with, about his opinion on raw diets and what he knew about ferret nutrition, which admittedly was next to nothing(not surprising considering he's a large animal vet). He didn't know of other clinics that were raw tolerant, but he told me about a mink fRm that his clinic treats, and he knows they feed raw and is willing to get me in touch with them. Would a mink's diet be similar to that of a ferret?

[Deleted]

I was thinking about you last night and wanted to find ways to make this seem less confusing.
I'm posting a picture of my very first feeding chart and menu.
Look at the menu and you'll see what a weekly menu looks like.



I've tweaked my menu some. I learned that turkey wings are big and hard to find around here.
Funny enough, I get wild turkeys in my backyard.
Instead of Beef Sirloin on Tuesday, they have pork from a butt roast.

That gives you an idea of what a weekly menu looks like. The menu is not complicated or exotic.
I do buy something new to try when we go shopping.
For example, if I bought rabbit then I would use it in place of chicken wings as a Bone In meal.

You still need to understand what you're feeding and why but this gives you an idea of how a simple menu would look like.
That's my Juliet who approved the menu.

In your case with Spaghetti and Bruce, you will figure on 6-8 ounces a day for the two of them.

As for a vet, if you have a ferret rescue then give them a call. They will know the name of a good vet that they use. Rescues need vets and they will be happy to share the information.
Vets love to know that someone has recommended them and the Rescue gets brownie points for sharing.

A Mink diet would be similiar. They are cousins in the same family.
I believe @cindyrads had minks. I'll tag her for you.
I will also post to the Mentors board. Quite a few of our Mentors are in Canada and may know of Vets in Mantiboa.

:wave3:

[Deleted]

I was thinking about you last night and wanted to find ways to make this seem less confusing.
I'm posting a picture of my very first feeding chart and menu.
Look at the menu and you'll see what a weekly menu looks like.


Read more: holisticferret60.proboards.com/post/new/19148#ixzz3mmuHTLRX

that's fantastic, thank you. I have been writing down information from the menus and various things around the forum on notepads to take to the butcher shops with me this weekend. I think I have a pretty good understanding of what I need, and I'm sure eventually I won't need my notes for reference.

 As you can see, I have already started a log of my transition as well. I will probably make a chart with a column for notes on poop.

Oh no, Spaghetti ;A; Injuring his cruciate ligament sounds awfully painful. Poor little one. How is he now?

Read more: holisticferret60.proboards.com/post/new/19148#ixzz3mmty15Mk

Spaghetti's knee is as stable as it will get. He gets around very well, and can get up onto things easily enough.

You can see the extra movement though because his leg extends farther on that leg now.

I'm off to fill out the application for a mentor. I thought it would be hard to get to 15, but I don't think it will take me very long at all

[Deleted]

Sept 25, 2015 16:22:20 GMT -5 @nikkita969 said:

I was thinking about you last night and wanted to find ways to make this seem less confusing.
I'm posting a picture of my very first feeding chart and menu.
Look at the menu and you'll see what a weekly menu looks like.


Read more: holisticferret60.proboards.com/post/new/19148#ixzz3mmuHTLRX

that's fantastic, thank you. I have been writing down information from the menus and various things around the forum on notepads to take to the butcher shops with me this weekend. I think I have a pretty good understanding of what I need, and I'm sure eventually I won't need my notes for reference.

 As you can see, I have already started a log of my transition as well. I will probably make a chart with a column for notes on poop.

Oh no, Spaghetti ;A; Injuring his cruciate ligament sounds awfully painful. Poor little one. How is he now?

Read more: holisticferret60.proboards.com/post/new/19148#ixzz3mmty15Mk

Spaghetti's knee is as stable as it will get. He gets around very well, and can get up onto things easily enough.

You can see the extra movement though because his leg extends farther on that leg now.

I'm off to fill out the application for a mentor. I thought it would be hard to get to 15, but I don't think it will take me very long at all

Remember it's posts not threads. If you welcome someone to the forum or simply comment on a cute picture, you're making a post.

I'm glad the picture helps some. From all of your notes, it sounds like you're doing your reading.
That's great!
(dance)

[Deleted]

Machan, good to know i'm not the only one a little overwhelmed by all this at first. I'm also new to forums, and trying to find my way around and what not, so i think that contributed to it.
I'm planning on printing off a bunch of the articles posted around the forums to have for reference when i talk to my vet about switching. I'm calling it my battle plan(only half joking) because they are openly not raw food tolerant.
I will have to post pictures tomorrow from my computer. It seems i can't from my phone, which is how i usually access the forum.


It's natural to feel overwhelmed. It will pass after you take it one step at a time.
I too was new to forums hehehe and now I'm an active forum member. It's so much fun especially since its a wonderful place filled with amazing people.
It's even more fun when you can simply come here to let off some steam or even simply chat with people.
I have a huuuuge folder filled with articles and things from my switch thread. Its great to have.
Don't stress too much over if the vet agrees or not. Its really up to you as the responsible ferrent on what diet you give your ferrets.
The vet will probably be happy that you're doing your research because I know they're mainly concerned for those who don't know what they're doing.
Anyway, you're doing a great job, so you have nothing to worry over. Members or the forum and mentors are here when ever you need help.

[Deleted]

Sherry suggested these people may be able to help you locate a good vet.

www.facebook.com/ManitobaFerretAssociationNoKillShelter?fref=ts

[Deleted]

Nope I don't have minks. Just skunks and now a possum. It was a good assumption though. LOL!

[Deleted]

I spoke to my vet office today, and they said that they are not opposed to raw diets, but the posters they had up was "to inform people of the dangers of raw feeding". The veterinarian I like is back from maternity leave, so I made an appointment with her to talk about the diet and of course a check up for the boys. I want to make sure I am prepared with all the information to back me up, so that they understand that I am an informed individual and they can feel confident in my ability to give my boys a balanced diet.

I came up with a menu to present them with that I would like some input on. I used items that I was able to find sources for this weekend. I wasn't able to find a second source for heart because I fell ill, but will do some more scouting over the next week or so.

Here's my menu:

Monday        AM: Chicken Wing        PM: Rabbit/Pork Tongue(Depending on consistency of poop; too runny=more bone, white=more muscle)

Tuesday        AM: Rabbit(Bone-in)    PM: Chicken Gizzard

Wednesday AM: Chicken Wing        PM: Chicken Heart

Thursday     AM: Rabbit(Bone-in)    PM:Chicken Wing/Chicken Gizzard(Again, depending on poop)

Friday         AM: Chicken Wing        PM: 1/2Chicken Heart 1/4 Pork Liver 1/4 beef kidney

Saturday     AM: Rabbit(Bone-in)     PM: Pork Tongue

Sunday        AM: Chicken Wing        PM:1/2 Pork Liver 1/2 beef kidney

How does that look?