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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2015 16:06:22 GMT -5
Today seemed to go well. Ghost and Phoenix seem to have no trouble with their thicker soup. Both of their plates were mostly licked clean. I gave them 3-4oz this morning. Cause I'm worried Freya and Luffy arnt Eating enough I added a little salmon to their soup in the morning cause they absolutely love salmon oil. It seems to work a little bit to get them to eat on their own. It just seems like the two feel lighter then they were and it worries me. They don't seem less active at all either. I'll try harder to make sure they are eating more then they have Very Good! If the plate is mostly licked clean, then you might try adding another ounce. A drop of oil is fine. To keep the oil down, try dropping it right on top of the soup as you put it out. They will smell it and you will have less oil in the soup. Oil is great but as you know, you want to limit it. Too much makes for looser poops. They will all get leaner as they fill up on nutrients. They are losing kibble fat. You'll see them get leaner and then more muscular in the next few months. The push to get them to eat slivers is now on. They're doing well with the soup so increase the sliver sizes and work on them learning to eat long thin slivers. That's your next step as you know. Let's go over some basic Ferret Facts about Ferrets and Diet. Ferrets are an obligate carnivore, which means they require a meat-based diet in order to survive. Ferrets are designed to eat a meat-based diet. Ferrets have a simple gastrointestinal tract and a short intestinal tract. They also have a rapid transit-time through the intestines. It usually takes only three to four hours for food to go from the mouth to the litter box.
This makes the ferret’s digestive tract inefficient. To make things even worse, ferrets have a simple gut flora, minimal brush border enzymes and lack a cecum.
This means ferrets cannot digest fiber, starch or other complex carbohydrates. To make up for this inefficient digestive tract, ferrets need a diet with a high level of protein and a high level of fat.
Ferret Protein Musts Protein is the basic structural component of all of the tissues in the body, and protein is required for growth and to maintain normal tissues in the body.
Protein is made up of amino acids, and approximately 24 amino acids are found in animal tissue.
Ferrets require a high protein level. This is higher than requirements for cats and dogs. A meat-based protein is required to meet their requirements for the essential amino acids. This is why we recommend at least 3 different animal proteins. The more variety the better.
Deficiencies in certain amino acids can cause serious problems.
Taurine is required for normal heart muscle and eye function. A diet that does not have enough Taurine can cause the heart to stretch and enlarge (dilated cardiomyopathy). This can lead to congestive heart failure and death.
In the eye, a low Taurine diet can cause blindness from central retinal degeneration. Taurine is present in the tissues of muscle. The more a muscle works the more Taurine is produced. Since the Heart is constantly working it produces a high quantity of Taurine. Tongue is also a great source for Taurine. Any Heart or tongue from any animal is fine.
On the Frankenprey diet, yours will be getting ten percent a week of Heart or tongue based on how much they eat during the week.
Let's say that Freya eats 2 ounces a day times seven days in one week. That's 14 ounces in one week. Ten percent is 1.4 ounces of heart. On Frankenprey, she will have one full meal of Heart and one half meal of Heart during the week.
Why Ferrets Need Fat Fat is important in the ferret diet for several reasons. Fat contains 2.25 times the energy of protein or carbohydrates, so it is a highly concentrated source of energy for ferrets. Fat also contains the essential fatty acids linoleic, linolenic and arachidonic. These fatty acids are needed for normal skin and hair coat. When you shop for meats, think fatty cuts as opposed to lean. Happily, the fattier cuts are less expensive.
Fat also contains the fat-soluble vitamins A, D, E and K. Vitamin-A deficiency can cause stunted growth, night blindness and muscular incoordination of the rear legs. Vitamin A is Fat soluable and remains in their system. For this reason, we limit Liver which is high in Vitamin A to five percent of their weekly diet.
Vitamin-D deficiency can cause abnormal bone development.
Vitamin-E deficiency can cause anemia, anorexia, a weak immune system, an impaired gait and paralysis.
Vitamin-K deficiency can create problems with blood clots that can lead to bleeding problems. To get the required vitamins, a good variety of animal protein sources is recommended. As mentioned, we want to see at least 3 different animal sources. The B vitamins and Iron are found in Red Meats. One meal a week should be a red meat meal.
B Vitamins are Water Soluable. They do not remain in the system and must be replenished. A balanced diet will make sure they receive the proper amounts.
Must-Have Minerals For Ferrets Minerals are also crucial for proper ferret nutrition. Calcium and phosphorus are the two minerals that cause the most problems. Meat contains a lot of phosphorus and very little calcium. Bones will provide the required calcium and phosphorus. We can't skimp on bone. Bone in meats will be 7-9 meals a week.
Ferrets actually need slightly more calcium than phosphorus. Without calcium, a calcium deficiency develops. With time the ferret will lose weight and become reluctant to play. Eventually the bones will not have enough calcium in them, so bone fractures can occur.
In countries where ferrets are fed homemade diets consisting of meat and organ tissue only, young ferrets commonly develop bone problems and are unable to stand up because their bones are so weak. They will often try to move by crawling or “swimming.” These kits are often called “swimmers.”
Ferrets And Carbohydrates Ferrets do not require carbohydrates and do not need carbohydrates in their diet as long as the diet has enough fat and protein.
Carbohydrates can cause two common problems. Carbohydrates stimulate the pancreas to make insulin. Ferrets normally eat small meals frequently, so the pancreas is repeatedly stimulated to produce insulin. This chronic overstimulation of the pancreas may cause an Insulinoma (cancer) to develop. The other problem that carbohydrates may cause is diarrhea. If the ferret cannot digest the carbohydrates (starch, complex carbohydrates) in the diet, then water will be drawn into the colon and cause a watery diarrhea.
Your weekly menu will look like this:
Monday am: edible bone in meat Monday pm: edible bone in meat (or muscle)* Tuesday am: edible bone in meat Tuesday pm: muscle meat Wednesday am: edible bone in meat Wednesday pm: heart Thursday am: edible bone in meat Thursday pm: edible bone in meat (or muscle)* Friday am: edible bone in meat Friday pm: ½ heart + ¼ liver + ¼ other organ Saturday am: edible bone in meat Saturday pm: muscle meat Sunday am: edible bone in meat Sunday pm: ½ liver + ½ other organ Edible bone in meat: is just that, meat with bone included.
It is NOT bones with just a bit of meat on them (ie: most of the meat removed). If you fed bones like this you will throw the balance of the menu off.
Good Bone In sources: chicken / quail / rabbit / turkey: necks, ribs, and wing tips/ duck: neck, ribs, and wing tips/ pork: button bones, rib ends/ Cornish game hen/ whole mice, rats and guinea pigs may be part of a Whole Prey diet or combined with the Frankenprey diet.
Any commercial frozen raw with 10% to 15% ground bone. Any freeze dried raw with 10%-15% ground bone.
Poop Patrol: Get use to watching your fuzzies poops. Poop will tell you alot about what is going on with them. You will see funky poops during a switch. It's when they are consistently funky, then we worry. When you see.. Dry chalky and firm poops means you want to go to the lower side of Bone In meals. Each ferret may have different bone in needs.
Loose, unformed and overly liquid, increase the bone-in meals.
Muscle meat: any heart meat. Chicken (including gizzard which is great for building jaw strength and can help clean teeth. Turkey, duck, lamb, goat, beef, Cornish Game Hen (counts as chicken), venison, elk, basically any meat (unaltered such as smoked, pickled or injected with salt) without bone.
*Heart is considered a muscle meat but is ABSOLUTELY necessary as it is their primary source of Taurine. Lack of taurine in their diet can lead to eyesight problems and other issues. Organ meat: Liver, kidney, thymus, pancreas, reproductive organs, lung, brain, basically any part of the body that secretes. Fat is an important part of a carnivore's diet as this is where they get their energy. It works for them in the same way carbs do for humans. Make sure to pick fattier cuts over leaner cuts when buying your meat (thigh vs. breast, shoulder vs. tenderloin, etc)
Variety For optimal health a minimum (more is preferable) of 3 different proteins need to be in the diet.
At least one of the minimum 3 proteins needs to be something other than: chicken, rabbit, cornish game hen or fish. A red meat meal will ensure adequate Iron and Vitamin B. Beef or Lamb is a good choice here.
Do you have any questions? You're not at the Frankenprey menu yet but it's time to begin thinking along those lines. Your four are doing so well and will be there before you know it. You're doing wonderfully. Nice Job! :wave3:
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2015 14:32:57 GMT -5
I have a few questions.other than I sharp knife what is an easy way to cut slivers? I'm having a little trouble cutting up smaller ones for Luffy and freya to eat. And for the soup I've been making it with chicken and then a mix of pork and chicken slivers. Would it be ok to make a soup with main meat as pork instead of chicken? It's mostly because they have nearly wiped out my stock of chicken thighs! But I have a good amount of the pork butt roast which I've been using for slivers.
Also what does it mean by or muscle? Is that just the muscle meat?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2015 16:23:49 GMT -5
And for grapetail. I'm not sure? Their tails do smell diffently than they did. Like an artificial smell
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2015 17:05:29 GMT -5
I have a few questions.other than I sharp knife what is an easy way to cut slivers? I'm having a little trouble cutting up smaller ones for Luffy and freya to eat. And for the soup I've been making it with chicken and then a mix of pork and chicken slivers. Would it be ok to make a soup with main meat as pork instead of chicken? It's mostly because they have nearly wiped out my stock of chicken thighs! But I have a good amount of the pork butt roast which I've been using for slivers. Also what does it mean by or muscle? Is that just the muscle meat? Hello One easy way to cut slivers is to half the meat frozen or slightly thawed. Then use a vegetable peeler and peel away frozen pieces. The pieces are nice and thin but wide. You can add a little warm water and just let them defrost for about 20 minutes or less. Some ferrets enjoy slightly cold meat and others want it warm or at room temp. You can certainly use pork. It's a great way to get them use to a new flavor. Pork is mild in flavor and ferrets usually take right to it. I use pork for one of my organ meals. Mine love pork brains and liver. Muscle meat meals simply mean the meals that have no bone in them. It does not mean only the muscle from the animal. You've seen on the Frankenprey menu that we want them to have 3-4 meals of muscle meat. One has to be Heart for the Taurine. That leaves you with either 2 or 3 more meals of muscle meat. A red meat meal is a good time for a muscle meat meal. Red meat is high in Iron and Vitamin B. Gizzards are a great choice for another because they build jaw strength and help to clean teeth. I use duck gizzards here. They're nice and fatty plus I get pricey duck protein for very little cost. (dance)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2015 19:08:03 GMT -5
my two stubborn kids are sneaky. its my day off today so i can see who is eating the food leave out for them it it turns out its both! i have 3 different plate each with different sized slivers based on which kid is eating. ghost gets the largest then its pheenie with slightly smaller pieces then luffy and freya get the smaller pieces. when i first brought out their food freya and luffy wouldnt eat anything other that what id offer from my finger so they ate a bit that way before they wanted gone.
i think phoenix gets jealous when i feed them by hand since whenever i do she always eats what im giving them and tries to get in my lap too. even when i see her already eating from her plate! silly baby.
anyways, i left the rest of their food out so they can eat it if they get hungry and so far ive seen both freya and luffy eat from the plates! ive even seen them eat small chucks! im happy their eating by themselves!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2015 0:11:25 GMT -5
Uhg gross. i went to put on my shoes and i ended up finding stashed meat! yuck
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2015 21:43:45 GMT -5
i have to admit that this morning was a little rushed. I ended up waking late and had to rush to get ready and them fed today. so they ended up just getting a thicker soup with no slivers. they ate most of that with no problem though.
the vegetable peeler i had was old and dull so i bought a new one and tonight i peeled a bunch of slivers for freya and luffy's plate. phoenix and ghost got bigger slivers with a little less soup. phoenix ate some but the others are asleep. so i will feed them when they wake
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2015 19:40:02 GMT -5
Sorry i havent posted in a couple days. I actually got sick.
Everthing seems to still be going well. They seem to eat soup with slivers no problem and im working on introducing larger slivers. everyone seems to have way more energy too! Luffy who use to only play a little bit runs around a lot more! its awesome to see that change in them
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2015 20:29:59 GMT -5
I'm so sorry you didn't feel well. It's no fun to be sick. That was a Sesame Street book that I would read to my children when they didn't feel well.
Someone paid you quite a compliment stashing food in your shoes. Wynstan really loves his Daddy and always leaves a few treasures in Paul's shoes. Paul is not quite as pleased with Wynstan's compliments. (giggle)
Grapetails take a bit of time. You usually notice a change in their fur first. They actually will smell like grape Kool Aid.
Start reducing the amount of soup now and working on getting them to eat more slivers.
Let's try a small quiz and see if you have some of the basics down.
1. Name a good source for Taurine.
2. How many animal sources/proteins as a minimum, should they have in their weekly menu?
3. Is Heart a muscle meat or an organ?
4. Besides Liver, name two Other Organs that could be included in their menu.
5. How many Bone In meals should they have in a weekly menu?
Try answering this without looking it up. The five questions are all based on the Frankenprey menu plan and you're moving quickly towards the day when they progress to this menu. It's a good time to see if you understand some of what is coming up.
You're doing so well and so are Ghost, Phoenix, Luffy and Freya. :wave3:
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2015 20:49:15 GMT -5
Stashing in my shoe is a compliment? haha once again ferrets are silly!
1.) A good source of taurine would be either heart or tongue i beleive.
2) you want a minimum of 3 different proteins. and isnt it since different proteins give them different nutrients?
3.) im fairly certain its a muscle meat.
4.)hmm i remember you saying that you like to use brain for an organ meal. so theres one (unless i remembered that wrong.) dang i really need to refresh myself. i believe lung can be used for another one?
5.)they should have bone in meals at least once daily if i remember correctly. but i think most people set a day just for organs. so around 7 bone in meals doesnt it depend on the ferret?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2015 21:17:09 GMT -5
Stashing in my shoe is a compliment? haha once again ferrets are silly! 1.) A good source of taurine would be either heart or tongue i beleive. 2) you want a minimum of 3 different proteins. and isnt it since different proteins give them different nutrients? 3.) im fairly certain its a muscle meat. 4.)hmm i remember you saying that you like to use brain for an organ meal. so theres one (unless i remembered that wrong.) dang i really need to refresh myself. i believe lung can be used for another one? 5.)they should have bone in meals at least once daily if i remember correctly. but i think most people set a day just for organs. so around 7 bone in meals doesnt it depend on the ferret? Ferrets are silly and so very loving. Someone really loves you but I know they all do. Let's look at your test: 1. A good source of taurine would be either heart or tongue i believe. Correct. Excellent and you knew about tongue. That's great.
2. you want a minimum of 3 different proteins. and isnt it since different proteins give them different nutrients?
Correct. That's exactly right. The more variety the better because there are different nutrients in different animal sources. Beef for example is high in Iron and Vitamin B.
3. I'm fairly certain its a muscle meat.
Right again. Very good.
4.)hmm i remember you saying that you like to use brain for an organ meal. so theres one (unless i remembered that wrong.) dang i really need to refresh myself. i believe lung can be used for another one?
We consider organs to be hormone secreting organs. Kidney, spleen, thymus, pancreas are all hormone secreting organs. Brains and Lungs do not secrete but they are nutrient rich, so we do accept them as an Other Organ. Your organ meals will be : 1. Liver plus another Organ
2. 1/4 portion of Liver plus 1/4 portion of another Organ plus a half meal of Heart (muscle meat, as you know). (dance) Lungs or Brains which are my five's favorite are a good and Correct answer.
5. They should have bone in meals at least once daily if I remember correctly. but i think most people set a day just for organs. so around 7 bone in meals doesnt it depend on the ferret?
7-9 Bone in meals is Correct. It does depend on the ferret. Young ones for example need more calcium so we would want them to have 8 or 9 Bone In meals in a week. Some ferrets need less bone and you can tell that by their poops which would be too firm and chalky looking. Some ferrets need more bone and you can tell that when their poops are too loose after a Bone In meal.
The menu is based on two meals a day or 14 meals in one week. 7-9 meals of Bone In meats 3-4 meals of Muscle meats, including the heart meal 1 Organ meal of Liver plus another Organ and then a second Organ meal that includes Heart.
Most Excellent! You get a good solid A for your first pop quiz. You already know more than you realize you know. I'm so pleased and you should be proud of yourself.
(dance)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2015 21:23:24 GMT -5
oh good i was a little worried for a moment!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2015 18:53:12 GMT -5
Since you are now feeding raw, you will get alot of questions about raw fed animals. Your vet may ask about Salmonella. Your friends may ask if feeding raw makes them more aggressive and your family might be concerned about the risk of contamination from meal preparations and handling or getting kisses. This thread is a good one to read when you get a chance. It answers alot of questions and will give you some answers when you do get questions and you most certainly will: holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/11604/myths-faqs-raw-diet :wave3:
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2015 16:55:11 GMT -5
Sorry i havent been posting these past couple days! Ive been just extreamly tired and lacking energy. everyone seems to be eating smaller slivers fine. pheenie and ghost are on larger peices and ive been working on getting them to eat them easier. but still a little fuss. freya and luffy are eating less reluctantly and seem to like it better.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2015 21:26:59 GMT -5
Hiya! I'm just reading through some of your posts on this thread because I was intrigued. I also have 4 that I plan on switching in the next week or so, and I have some newbie questions if you don't mind answering. How has it been switching 4 at once, for your first time? Is it a lot of work keeping track or can you usually tell who eats what? Are they free-roam when you're home, and do you think that affects bonding and their trust in what you feed them (in that they recognize it as food easier)? Going based on the amount of work you had before (soup without slivers) and the amount now (Ghost having large slivers, Phoenix having medium, Luffy and Freya having small), do you find it taking a lot more work to cut everything and divide it out? Do you generally just set out food or coax them into eating on mornings you have to work? Just curious. I want to be prepared! The information on this site is great, but switching 4 at once is a big task! I hope it goes well and I'll keep checking back. Ferrets are fickle, but be patient and it'll come with time!
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