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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2015 17:16:53 GMT -5
Absolutely no kibble since I joined lol I think they may have gotten a stray few pieces of dog food lol Athena has been on raw for a few weeks now. Bubba has no visible ribs which makes me happy. This menu thing is going to wear me out lol It is so worth it though. As for the bone meal I think I will have to order it online. I am afraid if I gave more food they won't finish it. They eat mostly in the 3am-7am stretch and not so much during the day. I can get kidney heart and liver maybe giblets too. The others will be a bit difficult. What doesn't count as a muscle meat again? Also limiting chicken is a good thing right? Maybe one meal a week?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2015 18:36:08 GMT -5
The menu seems overwhelming at first. What I did was to build a chart. I used that for ages. Now I have a whiteboard on my fridge with what days I feed each meat of Bone In/Muscle Meat and Organ meals. This was my first chart and Juliet approving it: Do you leave food out for them. It's a good idea to leave food out at all times. Raw is safely left out. Muscle meats depending on size can easily stay out for 12 hours. Bone in meats are good for 24 hours. Whole prey is safe for 48 hours. Ferrets have a very fast digestive track. Bacteria doesn't have time to incubate before it is eliminated from their system. Bone In meats are exactly that. Meat with smaller animal bones. Cornish game hens/chicken wings/quail/turkey wings/duck wings/pork button bones/rabbit/goat/mice/guinea pigs and rats. Never feed a live rat to a ferret. They're strong and fierce and may hurt the ferret. Organs are secreting organs like Liver/kidney/spleen/thymus/brains and lungs. Brains and lungs do not secrete but are full of nutrients and for our purposes fine for a ferret's meal. Everything else including hearts is muscle meat. That means meat without any bones in it. Chicken is a common allergy or intolerance. So, we do want to keep it on the low side of the menu. That's hard because they have such small nice bones and chicken is so easy to find. You're doing great. It's alot of info in the beginning, but you're smart and can handle it. This will all seem so easy very quickly. You'll be surprised. Just wait until Athena, Bubba and Kyuubi smell like grape kool-aid. They're going to have lovely soft fur and smaller less smelly poops. They will be healthier with more energy. You're going to be quite happy with yourself for being so good to them and they will reward you with a lovely bond and more kisses and snuggles. :wave3:
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2015 19:25:47 GMT -5
That menu really helps! Thank you for sharing now I can get a good idea of how to do their menu .I will make a menu on my fridge . I need to go shopping soon. I was told there is a Spanish butcher down the street. I will go Monday . I think I am more excited about this then they are lol. They just finished off 5 oz of chicken thighs and just enjoyed the bone ..crunch crunch crunch
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2015 21:13:15 GMT -5
The sound of crunching bones is wonderful. Their teeth are getting nice and clean. They are building jaw strength and receiving all those lovely nutrients. That's terrific! I'm glad that chart helped. I'm a visual learner and I needed to see it, and not worry about numbers and percentages back then. I've tweaked it since then, just like you will. You learn what days are easier for you to do certain meals. You learn what they like best and which meals they don't like at all. Once you have a nice basic menu, you can try something new once in awhile or when something expensive goes on sale. Also, reading about nutrition is easier when you think "okay, today is pork. I wonder what vitamins and nutrients are in pork?". Then you read a little more. What kind of freezer space do you have? After I shop, I put everything in the fridge for a little while. Then I prep meals. I put a serving size for five into baggies. Those go into bins that are marked. I bought them at the dollar store and they work great. I have an extra freezer but there are ways around a small freezer. This is what mine looks like: Everything stores well for quite awhile. I have found liver to be the first to go. I don't freeze liver for over two months, so I just don't buy large amounts of liver. :wave3:
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2015 9:03:10 GMT -5
Actually I do not have much freezer space currently. I would love to purchase a deep freezer. I will probably be buying week to week for now. Since my family and I are going on a no meat cleanse for a couple weeks there will be a lot of space for now lol. I know for a definite fact that my ferrets go crazy for beef and love it much more than chicken. I put 5 oz of beef chunks with egg shell powder around 2 am and they are still munching it away. I wish beef had smaller bones to consume. The new menu will go into effect on Monday so as to balance their meals. Thank you again for all of the tips. ^^
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2015 15:12:03 GMT -5
Menu for three ferrets. One adopted 1 1/2 year old female and two 2 1/2 year old males. The hearts and organs are cut up so they can be evenly and fairly distributed to each kid Mon Am:chicken chunks (thigh) egg shell powder 3 oz Pm:beef chunks 4oz Tue Am:pork chops in bone cut up 5 oz Pm:pork chop chuncks 3oz Wed Am:chicken thighs in bone cut up 5 oz Pm:chicken hearts and liver 3oz Thur Am:steak cut up in chunks with egg shell powder 5oz Pm:catfish chunks 5 oz(they looove catfish!) Fri Am: pork kidney 3oz Pm:chicken thigh chunks+ chicken hearts 3oz thighs 2 oz of hearts Sat Am:half Cornish game hen cut up (in bone) Pm:other half of Cornish game hen Sun Am:beef liver and chicken hearts 1oz of liver and 2 oz of hearts Pm:chicken drumsticks in bone x2 I was kinda in the dark as far as portions and how much plus how often so be easy on me x.x Oh wow! You guys went through a lot of info in one day. It seems like a lot at first, but you will remember it in the end after you come to use it regularly. In your menu I counted: 5 1/2 muscle meat meals (that's including the ones with the eggshell powder). 5 bone in meals. and 4 1/2 of heart and liver meals. So the things to address in this menu would be: 1. If they already eat chunks of bone in chicken thighs and the chicken drumsticks, then they don't need the chunks with the eggshell powder. Go ahead and replace them with bone in meat meals 2. Chicken thigh bones and drumsticks are a bit big for them (i'm not sure about those pork chop bones either, can you post a picture?). If you can try giving them wings or necks or ribs instead. If the bones are too big and hard, then there is a risk of a ferret's tooth getting cracked. That is why we avoid weigh bearing bones of larger animals. You can also smash them up with a hammer to make the bones easier to eat. I usually do that for the drumstick, after it's broken open it's easier to chew. 3. The amount of food for three ferrets is a bit low. I would say 5oz should be your smallest serving. If they always finish everything, then you should even increase it to 6oz per meal. 4. The menu here is a bit chicken heavy (Cornish game hens are essentially chickens as well). Try and see if you can buy some turkey wings and necks, or duck hearts and other bits. In the store rabbits cost quite a lot, but you can often buy them from farms directly for a cheaper price. When I was switching to raw I was on a rather tight budget so I bought them turkey, pork, and chicken as the staples in their diet. If anything just give them more pork as well, so it's not just chicken. And with Thanksgiving coming up (a couple of months is soon, right? ), there should be more turkey available in stores.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2015 15:27:58 GMT -5
Ooh another thing about making a menu I think we didn't say yet, make sure boneless meals are surrounded by bone in meat meals. So that before and after every organ or muscle meal, they get some bones. This helps keep their stools formed, and decrease the strain on their little bums.
For example:
Tuesday: AM: chicken wings PM: Duck hearts
Wednesday: AM: Smashed Turkey Necks (the bones there are a bit big, so smashing them helps the ferrets access them) PM: Chicken gizzards
Thursday: AM and PM: Pork riblets.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2015 11:05:13 GMT -5
Good Morning I thought I would take a minute and give you a small lesson on why we stress balance in the diet. Here is a very good article to read: Some of this infor will be repeated from an earlier lesson. How do you feel about pop quizzes? The Dangers of an UNBALANCED Raw Diet
For those who question WHY we nag so much about feeding a balanced diet. It is very dangerous when unbalanced, as evidenced below. And ferrets have even higher Calcium and Taurine needs than cats as a rule.
Original Source: healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/06/06/raw-food-diet-of-pets.aspx Holistic Ferret Forum: Intro to RAW-Newbies please read.
Edited to read for pertinent info. At a 2011 American Academy of Veterinary Nutrition (AAVN) symposium, three researchers affiliated with the Virginia-Maryland Regional College of Veterinary Medicine presented the case of a kitten with metabolic bone disease and central retinal degeneration.
The below case is an excellent illustration of what can happen when any pet is fed an unbalanced raw diet.
Newly Adopted Kitten Develops Lameness and Eye Problems
A 5-month old male Sphinx kitten, adopted from a breeder 11 days earlier, was taken to the vet by his new owner because he suddenly had no use of his rear legs.
X-rays showed the kitty had generalized osteopenia.
Osteopenia is a condition that often precedes osteoporosis.
It means the bones of the body have lower than normal mineral density – they aren't as thick or strong as they should be.
When formation of new bone isn't sufficient to make up for normal bone loss, osteopenia is the result.
The x-rays also showed a widening of the growth plate of the femur in the right hind leg, and a tibiofibular fracture of the left hind leg.
As if all that wasn't disturbing enough, the poor little guy also had lesions in the left eye commonly seen in cases of a gradually degenerating retina caused by taurine deficiency.
The kitten was diagnosed with metabolic bone disease, central retinal degeneration, and past or current taurine deficiency.
The left rear leg was splinted and fortunately, the kitty fully recovered after a couple of months of cage rest and a balanced diet.
How This Kitten's Health Was Compromised
The breeder of the Sphinx kitten fed him only raw chicken from the time he was weaned until he was adopted at the age of 5 months. So for 3 to 4 of his first months of life, during a very rapid growth period for kittens, this little guy was fed an unbalanced raw diet of exclusively chicken muscle meat. He quickly became seriously deficient in several crucially important vitamins, minerals and other nutrients.
His new owner switched him to store-bought kitten food, but by that time the damage was done. Less than 2 weeks into life with his new family, the kitten had rear leg lameness, eye lesions, a condition called Microphthalmia which means the eyes are smaller in size than normal, and an opaque right cornea.
Why Feeding Raw Meat Alone without Balancing that with Bone In meals and Organs can Cause problems.
Unfortunately, a growing number of well-meaning pet owners are confusing balanced, species-appropriate nutrition with feeding hunks of raw muscle meat to their ferrets. Although fresh meat is a good source of protein and some minerals, it doesn't represent a balanced diet.
Wild Ferrets and felines eat nearly all the parts of their prey, including small bones, internal organs, blood, brain, eyes, tongue and other tasty treats. Many of these parts of prey animals provide important nutrients for Ferrets. This is how carnivores in the wild nutritionally balance their diets. The Frankenprey diet is designed to mimic eating Whole Prey in the wild.
An exclusive diet of raw chicken muscle meat is lacking the minimum requirements for a number of vital nutrients as established by AAFCO.
These include potassium, iron, copper, manganese, zinc, iodine, and vitamins A, D, E, B-12 and Choline, the essential fatty acid ratio (omega 6s to omega 3s) is unbalanced, and there's a complete lack of Phytonutrients, antioxidants and enzymes.
When your ferret is fed only muscle meat, he's missing out on a variety of essential nutrients and sooner or later, he'll develop serious health problems as a result. Some conditions brought on by nutritional deficiencies can be corrected through diet, others cannot.
And don't make the mistake of thinking all you need to do is throw some fresh meat on the plate to make up the difference. Balancing your pet's food to provide optimal nutrition is a bit more complex.
How to Make Sure You’re Feeding Balanced Nutrition to Your Ferret.
Fresh, whole food provides the majority of nutrients pets need, and a Micronutrient vitamin/mineral mix takes care of the deficiencies that do exist, namely iron, copper, manganese, zinc, iodine, vitamin D, folic acid, Taurine and Biotin (for cats).
Keep in mind that just because nutritional deficiencies aren’t obvious in your pet doesn’t mean they don’t exist. A considerable amount of research has gone into determining what nutrients ferrets and felines need to survive.
At a minimum, one does a disservice to their pet by taking a casual approach to insuring he receives all the nutrients he requires for good health. The kitten who is the subject of this article is a good example of a pet whose breeder meant well and didn’t see any immediate damage to the animal, yet the kitten became acutely ill on the raw chicken-only diet.
What is meant by balanced is to build their menu based on the following protein sources.
Edible bone in meat: is just that, meat with bone included. It is NOT bones with just a bit of meat on them (ie: most of the meat removed). If you fed bones like this you will throw the balance of the menu off. See below for acceptable bone in meats
chicken: any / all, quail: any / all, rabbit: any / all, turkey: necks, ribs, and wing tips, duck: neck, ribs, and wing tips. pork: button bones, rib ends, cornish game hen: any / all.
Any commercial frozen raw with 10% to 15% ground bone. Any freeze dried raw with 10%-15% ground bone.
*These two meals can be either bone-in or muscle meat depending on the consistency of your ferret’s poop. Dry, chalky and firm you should reduce the bone-in meals and feed muscle meat instead.
Loose, unformed and overly liquid, increase the bone-in meals. Do not change the menu beyond these two optional meals or you could affect the nutritional balance of the diet. Muscle meat: any heart meat. Chicken (including gizzard), turkey, duck, lamb, goat, beef, Cornish Game Hen (counts as chicken), venison, elk, basically any meat (unaltered such as smoked, pickled or injected with salt) without bone.
Heart is considered a muscle meat but is ABSOLUTELY necessary as it is their primary source of Taurine. Lack of Taurine in their diet can lead to eyesight problems and other issues. Organ meat: Liver, kidney, thymus, pancreas, reproductive organs, lung, brain, basically any part of the body that secretes. Fat is an important part of a carnivore's diet as this is where they get their energy. It works for them in the same way carbs do for humans. Make sure to pick fattier cuts over leaner cuts when buying your meat (thigh vs. breast, shoulder vs. tenderloin, etc)
Variety For optimal health a minimum (more is preferable) of 3 different proteins need to be in the diet. At least one of the minimum 3 proteins needs to be something other than: chicken, rabbit, Cornish game hen or fish. This is to ensure enough Vitamin B, iron and a good base of Taurine in the diet (most Taurine comes from the heart in the diet however).
Happy Monday! :wave3:
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 9:24:19 GMT -5
Okay so I got a lot of things. Chicken wings,turkey wings,chicken necks,heart ,liver,giblets, turkey giblets , beef kidney,pork tongue umm and whatever I have left from before. I can't seem to find brains or anything other than kidney,liver,giblets ,tongue and heart. Will this be okay? I have no car ATM so ingredients are limited right now.hopefully my car will be fixed soon. They are all very energetic and happy. Eating when they like. I will say they don't eat more than 8 oz a day between the three of them. Food is always in there so it isn't like I don't give them food they just prefer to eat only that much right now. I'm sure they will eat more
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 9:41:34 GMT -5
Good Morning :wave3:
Great shopping trip. You found some good choices. Isn't it fun looking for ferret food. It's like a treasure hunt. Brains are usually found in a little tub in the freezer section. Ask the butcher at your store's meat section.
If you're leaving food out then we know they won't go hungry. It is summertime in most places, so they eat less.
As Fall arrives, you will see a change for the better in their appetite. Ferrets eat less in the spring and summer and more in the fall and winter.
Just for fun and practice :heehee: Why don't you try building a Frankenprey menu with the new food items and what you already have. It's good to work that out on paper and see if you any questions about the menu plan. It will reinforce what you know already and point out any areas that you are still unsure of.
:wave3:
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 12:29:13 GMT -5
I agree The items you listed, and have from before should be quite sufficient in building up a menu for the next week. And we will review it again.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 12:35:26 GMT -5
In the menu I was shown I see four different meat and options every day. How much of each meat option do you put out?for instance how many ounces in one sitting. I am lucky if they eat 8 oz all together in one day.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 12:40:57 GMT -5
I agree The items you listed, and have from before should be quite sufficient in building up a menu for the next week. And we will review it again. Your turn... (dance)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 12:56:07 GMT -5
My new menu I made with the ingredients I have.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2015 13:59:10 GMT -5
My new menu I made with the ingredients I have. That's a good start. What I'm looking for is to see it in this format. List the protein source and whether it is a muscle meat meal/Bone In meal or Organ meal. This is just for practice. Your final menu will be approved by Heather and it's a good idea to practice the menu in the approved format. What we're looking for is something like this: Monday a.m. chicken wings (Bone in Meal) p.m. Gizzards (muscle meat meal) I know, no one likes homework. It's important though for both you, Sveta and I to know that you understand which meal is which and what role it plays in their weekly menu. :wave3:
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