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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 17:21:45 GMT -5
Hello everyone,
Those of you who know me from the FB group know that I have two boys purchased from pet stores in the Charlotte, NC area. Both boys are amazing and I wouldn't change them. However there is something I've always loved. Helping animals breed. In fact as a child I wanted nothing more than to specialize in helping endangered animals reproduce. Though the schooling for that was too expensive and too far from home. Now, I am going to be a pediatric nurse practitioner and midwife (still in school). I've helped dogs, cats, hamsters, field mice(cute story actually) and other animals have babies.
Now I want to breed ferrets. It's not something that should be taken lightly and I know how hard it is to find an unaltered hob and Jill in the states. I also know that it is a dirty business and not something I'm ready to take full swing at right now. As it is I'm still working out the right moment to start my boys on raw. I will have another thread for that as I still have a lot of questions.
Right now though, I want to know that if I did get an unaltered female, 1-will breeders be willing to stud a hob? How much does it cost? 2-would I be able to fix a Jill after she has had kits or would that be dangerous? I've read everywhere that if not intended for breeding they need to be fixed before their first heat. However I can't find any information on getting a Jill fixed after she's had kits.
Even if I decide to never breed, it would still be good information In case I ever need to rescue an unaltered jill. 3-Can someone please explain a Jill's pregnancy? I've heard nothing but horror stories online and would like to hear from breeders personally.
This isn't something I plan on doing full time, I just want the experience. Which is why I would be OK with just fostering a pregnant Jill as well until the kits were old enough to be moved or however that would work.
Anyway, I'm sure I will have more questions eventually.. Thanks in advance!
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Post by unclejoe on Aug 11, 2015 17:56:23 GMT -5
Hi. Just about every ferret lover has wanted to breed. I know both I and my wife did. But I would like to say that it needs to be a LONG TERM plan, not something to be done just because you love ferrets. It is very risky, and even the actual mating can be brutal. We have seen jills and entire litters lost, from breeders with years of experience, so it is not for the faint of heart. Personally, I'm not sure I could risk a jill I had grown attached to. There are feew breeders here that can verify what I say. We would love to raise a litter and keep them all. Darlene watched Jaffa grow from pinky to 5.5 lbs (I met him when he was 2), but he still only lived 6 years and had all of the Big 3 when he passed last month. All that said, a ferret breeder willing to sign over a breeding ferret to you will most definitely want to be confident in your ferret husbandry and make you sign a detailed contract. (At least in the USA)
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Post by Heather on Aug 11, 2015 21:10:10 GMT -5
To work this, the best is to approach a breeder about mentoring. Most reputable breeders will not place a breeding pair or place a breedable ferret with someone who's not got the support of a reputable breeder and someone that they've not got to know on a personal level. What you have to remember it's their reputation and their stock you're using. What goes wrong is reflected back to their reputation which they've worked hard to establish. Any mistakes made, any problems with the kits people are going to point the finger at the breeder. Breeding isn't just to breed but to create a better ferret. It's not an experiment or something to just try. Buying a fantastic ferret, to put to another fantastic ferret sometimes brings you nothing if you don't know how to critically analyse what you're looking to improve on. There are the losses as well. It's heartbreaking to loose a whole litter, it's devastating to loose the jill. Ferrets are heartbreaking to have, to breed puts a whole new level of pain in the mix. It's not uncommon to loose a litter or most of a litter, you don't know guilt until you watch a 3 week old kit die. A jill may refuse to care for a litter or just give up on a litter. There is nothing you can do if she does this within the first couple of weeks. Meepers are fragile creatures. Truthfully, if I didn't have all this time and money invested I'd go back to allowing someone else to make the risks. It costs a fortune to breed and do it right. ciao
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 23:07:50 GMT -5
It hurts my heart to see so many ferrets come down with insulinoma from eating bad kibble and also getting adrenal disease and then to end up on craigslist. it is sad to think of more coming into this world. Glad petco sells their ferrets for nearly $200. Keeps people from buying them on a whim. Wished people had to study ferret husbandry for 2 weeks before buying a ferret. There r some really sad stories on this forum of ferrets that have been rescued from terrible conditions.
I think the most important question you should ask yourself is---- what kind of life r these animals going to live once they r out of my hands? I think it is a question all breeders should ask themselves.
Sorry, don't mean to be a party pooper
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 0:42:41 GMT -5
You all make very good points and breeding wouldn't be a whim for me. I've had ferrets nearly all of my life and will always be known for having them. Friends I met with this weekend weren't surprised to see my boys. That's why I have been thinking about it. I of course would love to be mentored. Even just being there and helping out during a Jill's pregnancy and birth would be enough for me. I feel like since I'm going into midwifery, knowing as much as I can about different kinds of creatures reproduction habits would benefit me in the long haul. I may not be a vet but the experience would certainly help. I would never risk a Jill and her kits and I definitely am not financially sound to breed.
I'm also not looking for reasons to not breed. Because if I did, it would only be once and the kits would stay with me until people were properly vetted. Call me crazy or weird but I am purely interested in the experience, not for money. I couldn't be a breeder full time. Which is why I asked the specific questions I did.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 6:15:39 GMT -5
I do understand where you r coming from---the science part and if you know your babies are going to a responsible person---no puppy mill type of thing.
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Post by crazylady on Aug 12, 2015 12:17:52 GMT -5
Hi I like to class myself as a responsible breeder I breed for me ( and a few very very select people may end up with one of my kits ) most of a litter stays home to improve the breed and not just my breed ferrets in general longevity and health is my aim its not just a case of put this to this get kits you must know the full background of what you are breeding ( health issues in lines how many in litters how long did they live ect ) my breeding jills and hobs go on a specialist diet for a year before breeding and even then I may decide no its not the match I want ( I have been around ferrets all my life I owned my first when I was 7 I am now 55 ) and by match I don't mean colour I mean length of body skull size temperament ect then you have to ask will the jill make a good mother ? ( and some don't some will eat them or abandon them ) or simply due to no fault of her own she cant nurse or she can have difficulty birthing ( can you afford a caesarean in the early hours of the morning which is normally when they give birth ) could you deal with the loss of a whole litter emotionally ? next if everything goes ok can you afford to raise a litter ? don't think its just feed mom and she feeds kits ( I wish lol ) mom remains on specialist diet fed twice per day till her kits hit 3 weeks then the trouble and draining bank balance begins I feed my kits four times per day your looking at around 8-10oz meat per day week three/four week five that has doubled to 3-4oz per kit plus mum week 6 and up wards feeds drop to three times per day but they are garbage disposals on legs so meat quantity goes up and what goes in comes out x four lol next you have to ask yourself can I find homes for them ? what happens if there are not six but 13 ? ( and it has been known my jills have been averaging 8-10 lol) seeing kits born is a beautiful experience but its a lot of hard work and a lot of heartache ( over the years I have had more heartache as I keep whole litters and when one dies they all follow ) no breeder ever makes a penny from a kit if its fed right in fact I loose money on every litter and I have not added in the cost of bandaids when handling them lol my main aim in breeding is simply its what I was brought up with my father bred ferrets for working and so did my grandfather they left me a wealth of knowledge in books and by word of mouth they taught me everything must be logged down ( you do forget ) they also banged into my head if you cant keep it don't breed it! I breed and In the past worked ferrets ( at the moment creaking bones prevent me from going lol) I have showed them and I also have judged them all over the world and I have witnessed first hand how the genetics of the ferret has changed since my youth in my younger days hobs had big bold broad heads jills had dainty slightly rounded heads now its often hard to spot whats a hob or jill unless you look underneath as heads have become angular and pointy and once again adrenal and insulinoma where illnesses that simply never happened my advice to you would be read talk to breeders there will be very few who have not been touched by the happiness along with the heartache and many of us also ask the question what if ? good luck take care bye for now Bev
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Post by unclejoe on Aug 12, 2015 20:21:07 GMT -5
I didn't see anyone answer a couple of your questions. I'm not a breeder, but I've know crazylady here and back when she had her own forum, and several other breeders, so I'll take a shot. crazylady Heather, feel free to correct me. You can use hormone injections ("jill jab") to prevent further pregnancies, like ferret birth control. It needs to be repeated yearly. If the jill is young and healthy enough, you can opt for surgery, but I would have an experienced vet do it. Ferrets and surgery are the best combination. I believe Bev did answer the question about horror stories. One member here actually puts up a webcam when her jills become preggers. The first year was awesome, and I actually met my wife in her ferret cam chat room. 2 jills gave birth to 23 kits within 48 hours of each other, one on live streaming video. All but a couple lived and were adopted out. A couple years later, some of us witnessed what Bev talked about. Once, the jill died a few days after giving birth and despite heroic efforts the entire litter of 11 (i think) died also. In another case, the kits never nursed. And once, at 4 am while a bunch of us were watching and waiting, she had to rush a jill to the vet for an emergency c section. None of those kits made it. It's just so umpredictable.
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Post by Heather on Aug 12, 2015 21:34:48 GMT -5
Sorry....missed the question for keeping an intact jill without spaying or breeding. I don't use a jill jab, mainly because of the timing and cost....and I don't have to . YOu have to be right on with the timing of the jab or you will have to do it again. A jill can come into season a couple of times during the breeding season (their bodies automatically allow for a lost litter). There have been a couple of times this year where breeders have found themselves stuck because their jills wouldn't come out on the jab and they were scrambling for a v-hob. I use a v-hob as does Bev. I've opted not to spay my jills because I have a v-hob. I would suggest anyone who's going to juggle the long term use of a jill jab that they either spay or chemically castrate using the DES implant (I'm not comfortable with this one, but I feel I should at least offer it up as a suggestion) Quite a few have used this successfully both on their hobs and jills (though it was only tested on hobs). ciao
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Post by crazylady on Aug 13, 2015 11:52:09 GMT -5
Hi I too missed the question on intact jills heather is right a jill jab can bring them out but they can come in 3 times per year even with the jill jab ( so it is an expensive option compared to a vas hob )my vas hobs enjoy themselves all summer long but by aug/ September they look at me as if to say no I want to join a monastery lol no more females please lol I have seen implants used in other parts of the world ( they where mainly used on the show circuit to prevent animals coming into season during show season ) the owners I have kept in touch with did mention problems with them coming back into season or fertility problems so its something that needs more research take care bye for now Bev
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Post by unclejoe on Aug 13, 2015 12:58:55 GMT -5
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Post by nancyl on Aug 13, 2015 22:09:36 GMT -5
The shots may not work. The jill may come back in heat and the second time around it can be much harder to get her out. Vasectomized hobs are few and far between.
I bred a litter two years ago. The jill had nine kits. At three weeks she developed hypocalcemia (milk fever) and I very nearly lost her. A temp of 108 is not a pretty thing. It involved a midnight emergency vet run and corresponding bill. I had to give her calcium injections for the next few weeks until the kits were weaned. I could have weaned the kits at three weeks but chose to support the jill with calcium until they could be weaned at a more appropriate time. She came through it with no lasting ill effects and I count myself lucky.
I bred one of her daughters this year. She whelped a total of 9 kits. Two were stillborn, 1 was dead the next morning and she retained one for 24 hrs and then expelled it. There was a trip to the vet and a round of antibiotics. Of those five kits, two developed and died of some neurological illness for which I still do not have reports back from the pathologist. It may well prove to be DIM but I think it was something else. More vet bills, some emergent. I spent two weeks nursing the jill kit before she deteriorated and I had to have her euthanized. And an untold amount of heart break. So, of a litter of nine I have three remaining. Not particularly good odds.
Every breeder has stories like this. Think long and hard before you choose to go down that road.
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Post by Heather on Aug 14, 2015 1:04:58 GMT -5
Thank you for chiming in Nancy. I know you had a hard time with this litter this year. I lost 2/3 of my litter last year and felt like I was the world's most horrible ferrent. My mentor and my vet both have told me it was out of my control to have done anything other than to be the observer of a series of unfortunate events. This doesn't prevent me from feeling the guilt of not being able to do anything for the wee ones who slipped away. I personally have a hard time of anyone wanting to just breed to find out what creating a litter is all about. What I would suggest is that if all you really want to do is see the birth of "a" ferret litter from beginning to end is to find a breeder who would be willing to work with you and allow you to be the fly on the wall with the birth of a litter. Actually, the best bet would be to wait until the spring, sign up with Heather and Pam who both video tape the births of their litters on public web cams. I've been an observer, watching Heather's litters born and growing up for the last 4 or so years. I've had the privilege of watching a couple of the litters being born and have enjoyed watching these wee meepers grow to roly poly kits. I cried right along with everyone else when 2 yrs ago everything went south and the jill of one litter died after an emergency c section and watched as one kit after another faded away and died. I then watched her second jill go into mourning over the loss her best friend and stop nursing her own kits. I can still remember the sick feeling when I turned on my computer and the web cam was off the air. I know this may seem like we're just putting forward our best horror stories to discourage you but what we've recounted happens more often than it doesn't. I have to admit as I learn more from the various breeders, the more I hate to think of the devastation that must occur in the ferret mills. ciao
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2015 5:54:09 GMT -5
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Post by Sherry on Aug 14, 2015 11:02:21 GMT -5
And not to sound nasty here- but if the only reason to breed is to do it once "for the experience", then you have no business breeding. Do what the others have suggested, find someone who will let you be alongside them for the experience instead.
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