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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2015 15:34:48 GMT -5
Salmon oil is a good reward. That's what Katt uses. Just make sure that they don't overdo the Salmon oil, or you are going to have loose stinky fish poops. 1/3 tsp every 3 days would be the right amount.
So, they get a taste for a treat, not a snack.
Your organ night went really well. I know they are young but they really seem to be accepting of everything you offer.
:wave3:
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2015 15:56:27 GMT -5
Salmon oil is a good reward. That's what Katt uses. Just make sure that they don't overdo the Salmon oil, or you are going to have loose stinky fish poops. 1/3 tsp every 3 days would be the right amount. So, they get a taste for a treat, not a snack. Your organ night went really well. I know they are young but they really seem to be accepting of everything you offer. :wave3: I've actually been very surprised. The only night they snuffed their nose up at me was the very first night I offered them meat of any kind. They did not want to try it, but I left it with them and by the morning when I woke up they ate it all. Ever since then, they have been very accepting to everything I offer them. I picked up some Grizzly salmon oil today from one of the vitamin shops not too far from me. I cut it with some Olive Oil and poured it into a dropper bottle. I offered them a taste on my finger and they went crazy for it. I guess ferrets really love salmon oil haha.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 8:16:22 GMT -5
Ferrets are natural Preppers. lol Have you heard about FDR Freeze dried raw? You can find it in most pet stores in the treat section. That can make for another good training treat. Get it wet first. It should be something like 100 percent chicken/turkey etc... Grain free of course, just Freeze Dried meat. You can also make your own. GFountain did and hers liked it: holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/5840/home-freeze-dried-jerky-treatsI keep meaning to tell you this, but PVO Ferrets is in Cincinatti. Pam is a breeder and shows her ferrets. She also runs a Ferret Camp. That's where ours go, when we go on vacation. She has a terrific setup, they get to play everyday and even made the cutest notes in my journal, telling me what they were doing. She's on Facebook and posts pictures of her vacationers. She will be at the Ferret Buckeye Bash in Columbus on August 22nd. I hope to get there, next summer. It's nice to have a place that is safe, if you and your girlfriend have to travel for fun or an emergency.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 7:58:06 GMT -5
Ferrets are natural Preppers. lol Have you heard about FDR Freeze dried raw? You can find it in most pet stores in the treat section. That can make for another good training treat. Get it wet first. It should be something like 100 percent chicken/turkey etc... Grain free of course, just Freeze Dried meat. You can also make your own. GFountain did and hers liked it: holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/5840/home-freeze-dried-jerky-treatsI keep meaning to tell you this, but PVO Ferrets is in Cincinatti. Pam is a breeder and shows her ferrets. She also runs a Ferret Camp. That's where ours go, when we go on vacation. She has a terrific setup, they get to play everyday and even made the cutest notes in my journal, telling me what they were doing. She's on Facebook and posts pictures of her vacationers. She will be at the Ferret Buckeye Bash in Columbus on August 22nd. I hope to get there, next summer. It's nice to have a place that is safe, if you and your girlfriend have to travel for fun or an emergency. I'll definitely have to check that out, I have to run up to the pet store today to get them some more litter so I'll definitely take a look. It would be nice to have some and I'm sure they would love it. I started working on training them, but right now they just jump all over me dooking like a bunch of crazed ferrets trying to get some Salmon Oil. I'm sure they will calm down once the "OMG this stuff is amazing!" wheres off. That's excellent! We were actually thinking of planning a vacation for next year and I was wondering what we would do with them. I don't know any people that are exactly "ferret-trained". Now I know I have somewhere I can go and I can trust with them. I wish it was closer, I would go down and check it out and bring my noodlecats with me. (That's how I address my ferrets now... they're just so noodley). So far the diet switch has been going really well, stools are very regular and normal looking. Definitely smaller, but I read that they go less since the body actually absorbs more of the nutrients. They have also been getting a lot better with sharing, there hasn't been any fighting over food in the last day or so. I gave them their egg yolk separate last night since it is their favorite thing in the world right now, and they also ate all of their lamb and seemed to really enjoy it, they're definitely plumping up a bit more since the pet store. They're a lot less boney, which is a good thing
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 9:56:10 GMT -5
Pam's Ferret Camp is terrific and so is she. It's nice to know that she has medical experience and has seen almost every issue a ferret could have. She also doesn't charge much. Last year, we payed $5 a day for each ferret. Her prices may have gone up. I'll see in a few day, so have you seen what Vets charge for boarding? We actually drive five hours to take ours there and then fly out of her airport. I love the Noodley name for ferrrets. It's perfect. They are moving along so nicely in their switch. How about a small lesson just for fun. Let's talk about Taurine, since it is so essential for ferrets: I was searching for articles about Taurine. I wanted to learn a little more about its importance. I found this article and thought that it was very imformative: Credit to Mustelamania, ferret nutrition, news and love.
But… What is Taurine, Really?
We know cats and more than likely ferrets need taurine in their diets, but what really do we know about it?
Taurine, number one, is not an amino acid, though many people (even clinically) classify it as such – many clinicians, veterinarians, and pet food manufacturers will call it a “free amino”. All amino acids contain both an amine chain, and carboxylic acid, with an ending chain specific to that amino acid. So all the essential and non-essential aminos look, when chemically written out, similarly. Taurine, however, is an amine chain with a sulfonic acid chain instead of a carboxylic chain. This makes it slightly more acidic, number one, but also means it is utilized differently in the body. Unlike true amino acids, which are incorporated into proteins in the body, taurine is “free” and is easily transported through the body.
That said, taurine is an important nutrient. In mammalian herbivores and omnivores, the pancreas is the organ responsible for the biosynthesis of taurine. The pancreas does this by taking either the amino acid cysteine, or methionine, and chemically altering it using enzymes to remove the carboxylic acid and then replace it with sulfonic acid in the molecule chain. In humans and other mammals, this process happens with relative ease on the pancreas itself, and the newly formed taurine can then be utilized by the body. In obligate carnivores like all felids, taurine synthesis does not occur, and so they must ingest taurine via diet in order to maintain proper taurine levels in their bodies. Most biologists and veterinary professionals will agree that mustelids are most likely obligate carnivores, also, and thus require taurine in their diet.
Cats require anywhere from 35-250mg of taurine per day. The reason for the large range in necessity is complex: bioavailability of taurine depends directly on the level of digestibility of the proteins in the diet. This, and a diet high in carbohydrates supports a gut flora more likely to consume dietary taurine, making higher levels necessary in order to meet the body’s needs as well as the needs of the gut flora that are also utilizing taurine. Certain other issues such as irritable bowel seem to have an effect on how well cats absorb dietary taurine, so that should be considered for ferrets, as well. Because the caloric need of felines per day is pretty comparable to that of ferrets (a 4lb cat requires about 230 calories, a 2lb ferret, about 100-150,) one can assume the taurine needs per day is probably comparable. According to AAFCO Dry Matter Basis (DMB,) a cat’s daily taurine requirement is 0.10% for dry foods, and 0.20% for canned foods. The reason for the difference? Like the overall varying levels of necessity, the processes involved in the production of kibbles and cans creates bioavailability differences, as well as some of the plant ingredients included in canned foods seem to make taurine less available. So while a frozen raw food probably seems like it would be closer to the canned food requirement, it’s probably reasonable to assume that anywhere between 0.10 and 0.20% for raw diets is sufficient (because of bioavailability, digestibility, and overall degradation.)
Taurine is used by the body in many ways, most noteworthy in the maintenance of the retina (the light-sensitive membrane on the inner surface of the eye,) in cardiovascular function, and in the production of bile. It is found in all animal tissue in varying levels, because of it’s important role in maintaining cellular calcium homeostasis throughout the body. When feeding a raw diet to your ferrets, you can expect them to receive their taurine in largest concentrations from hearts, brains, and dark muscle meats like thighs. Because of the necessary nature of taurine for obligate carnivores, it is imperative that hearts are offered as a meal at least weekly, though many people include them in daily meals.
In terms of commercial raw foods: if a food item is labelled as “AAFCO Approved Complete and Balanced for Cats” then it by AAFCO definition needs to contain at least 0.10% DMB of taurine. In kibble, this requirement would more than likely be met using supplemented taurine, probably from Chinese sources. In raw foods, much of the time, this requirement is easily met and surpassed using nutritious muscle meats and hearts, and thus, taurine won’t be listed on the package at all.
This is important to note because I see a good number of folks panicking when they look over their Nature’s Variety or other raw food packaging, and don’t see any taurine listed on the ingredient panel. Pet food manufacturers, by AAFCO definition, do not have to list taurine levels in foods, along with many other nutrients (yet another misleading truth about pet food!) . But, if the food is labelled as Complete and Balanced for Cats, you know that the taurine levels are adequate for a carnivore (and more than likely far exceeding AAFCO standards.)
Here are the taurine contents of some popular commercial frozen raw foods, just to get an idea: All Nature’s Variety except for Bison and Rabbit (includes Chicken, Organic Chicken, Beef, Venison, Lamb and Duck) contain 0.064% DMB of taurine. Their Bison contains 0.03% and their Rabbit contains 0.04%. Primal’s Feline Frozen Formulas except for their Chicken and Salmon (including Beef and Salmon, Pheasant, Quail, Rabbit, Turkey, and Venison) all contain 0.14% taurine, where their Chicken and Salmon formula contains 0.20% taurine. Remember, 0.10% is what AAFCO believes is the minimum amount of taurine necessary, so all of the Nature’s Variety formulas are slightly low in taurine – however, if you are feeding a meal of hearts per week, or using NV products in a rotation with other raw foods, both frankenprey and/or commercial raw, you are still probably meeting their needs by the end of the week. Bravo! Raw Foods make four different formulas each with different protein sources and levels of completeness. The only of their line that is complete and balanced according to AAFCO for dogs and for cats, is their Bravo! Balance line. This line comes in Chicken, Turkey or Beef, in both chubs or in burgers. Their other lines, The Bravo! Blends, Bravo! Boneless, and Bravo! Basics have varying levels of taurine content depending on whether they include heart or not – in those instances, again, if you are feeding a varied diet and include thighs, hearts, brains, and/or whole prey in the diet, you are more than likely meeting their taurine needs, even if you aren’t meeting them with every single meal.Another fallacy I see circulating the ‘net in terms of taurine is degradation. Many seem to believe taurine is broken down and denatured to a monumental degree by freezing. This is, thankfully, not true – it is actually not affected by the freeze-thaw cycle at all. Taurine is, however, broken down by cooking and by long-term exposure to air (oxidation), so ground formulas tend to lose their taurine levels faster than whole foods. Since taurine is water soluble, thawing out a frozen item can thus leach the taurine into the runoff liquid (IE: blood) and if not added back into meals, can then result in loss of taurine fed. This is another reason why when feeding ground and commercial raw products, to remember to pour a bit of the bloody thaw-off back into the meals! There are important nutrients in there! In terms of freeze-dried products, the process of freeze-drying involves removing the liquid from an item, and so taurine is leached into the liquid and then evaporated off. In this way, freeze-dried products are less abundant in taurine than their frozen and fresh counterparts.
Taurine as a nutrient is water soluble and generally any excess is then excreted via urine. That said, there are preliminary studies in rats and humans that indicate omnivore species can experience alarming symptoms when given large amounts of supplemented taurine over time. Some of the symptoms included psychomotor inhibitions, induced psoriasis, and higher produced levels of various growth hormones. Whether these findings are indicative of toxicity or something else is unknown, and whether it is similar of our carnivorous friends or not, it’s hard to say – but it is something to think about.
Taurine in whole food form, found in muscle tissues, hearts, brains and other animal tissues, is in any case the ideal for any raw diet – and not a difficult nutrient to maintain proper levels of if offering the right variety. Supplementation of factory-synthesized taurine is a possibility in extreme cases but be sure to choose a supplement of human-grade quality, from a trusted company and source. I know many people use the NOW brand of taurine powder. Do you need to suuplement 500mg per day? No, definitely not, not unless your ferret has a diagnosed heart condition that may benefit from higher than usual taurine levels. Aim for over a period of a week to give about 1400mg – which is 200mg per day if you want to balance it daily – but in reality, having it balanced with every meal is probably overkill.
To give some scale to the amounts of taurine your ferrets are probably consuming, here is the taurine content of some commonly-fed food items:
Chicken Breast: 260 mg/kg
Chicken Leg: 3780 mg/kg
Pork Meat: 1180 mg/kg
Pork Heart: 2000 mg/kg
Pork Kidney: 1200 mg/kg
Pork Liver: 420 mg/kg
Whole Quail: 95-280 mg/kg
Medium Egg: 350 mg
Sources used in writing this article:
1. Small Animal Clinical Nutrition, 4th Edition, by Hand, Thatcher, Remillard, and Roudebush
2. ec.europa.eu/food/fs/sc/scf/out22_en.html
3. maxshouse.com/nutrition/aafco_cat_food_nutrient_profiles.htm
4. www.petforums.co.uk/cat-health-nutrition/99294-taurine-cats-2.html
5. suppversity.blogspot.com/2010/08/taurine-from-foods-can-i-be-taurine.html
6. feline-nutrition.org/answers/answers-how-much-taurine-should-i-add
7. www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmb/aal/pdfs/spitze.pdf
8. www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ccah/local-assets/pdfs/Role_of_diet_feline%20health_Glasgow.pdf
9. www.livestocklibrary.com.au/bitstream/handle/1234/19925/187.PDF?sequence=1
10. biocor.umn.edu/assets/files/ANALYTE%20STABILITY%20&%20FREEZE-THAW%20INFORMATION-1.pdf Share this:
Just a little reading to help you understand how Taurine works and why it's so important. There will be a quiz tomorrow.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 10:51:26 GMT -5
That was actually a really good and interesting read. Its a good thing I always dump all the bloody runny gook out of the bags that i have their food stored in. I had no idea that Taurine was water soluble and that you can lose some of it in the thawing process when it gets watery. Also really cool is that excess taurin they urinate out... this might sound gross but I wonder if you can tell if they're having an excess or not in their diet by smell alone. With all their meals I definitely know they are hitting that 250mg a day mark. (maybe a little more depending on the amount in the meats they're eating.) I haven't looked up the crating at the vets, but I can't imagine it would be very cheap. I'd rather drive the couple hours to Cinci with someone I know is going to take good care of them. No offense to the vets haha. I'm ready for the test! I haven't had a good test in years haha.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 18:27:45 GMT -5
I love that you really want to learn and are so enthusiastic. It's a pleasure to see your posts and wonderful to know that you are being such a good new Ferrent.
Okay, here are some questions. Try to answer without looking at the above post. It will reinforce what you know and point out, any areas that you have questions on.
1. Can heat degrade Taurine?
2. Name two good protein sources for Taurine.
3. If you supplement with Taurine powder, what is the recommended dosage per ferret.
4. What can happen if a Ferret does not receive enough Taurine.
5. Can you name two animals that are low in Taurine? (trick question because the answer is not found in the article but nice to be aware of).
6. What organ is responsible for the biosynthesis of Taurine?
7. Lucky number seven: What percentage of Taurine is recommended in their weekly meal intake?
You're a very good sport to take this little pop quiz. :wave3:
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2015 20:19:34 GMT -5
I love that you really want to learn and are so enthusiastic. It's a pleasure to see your posts and wonderful to know that you are being such a good new Ferrent. Okay, here are some questions. Try to answer without looking at the above post. It will reinforce what you know and point out, any areas that you have questions on. 1. Can heat degrade Taurine? 2. Name two good protein sources for Taurine. 3. If you supplement with Taurine powder, what is the recommended dosage per ferret. 4. What can happen if a Ferret does not receive enough Taurine. 5. Can you name two animals that are low in Taurine? (trick question because the answer is not found in the article but nice to be aware of). 6. What organ is responsible for the biosynthesis of Taurine? 7. Lucky number seven: What percentage of Taurine is recommended in their weekly meal intake? You're a very good sport to take this little pop quiz. :wave3: 1) Taurine can be broken down by cooking or oxidization (being left out or exposed). 2) Heart and brainssssss mmm 3)200mg a day or roughly 1400 a week, unless the ferret was diagnosed with a heart condition. 4) retinas, cardiovascular function, and production of bile were the 3 that it was most responsible for, so I'm going to say retina probelms, bad heart and blood system, and bad production of bile resulting in poorly digested food. 5) I'm gonna go out on a limb here , I'm gonna guess... clams or muscles. Animals that don't move much? I'm not sure haha. 6) The Pancreas 7).10-.20%
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 7:11:32 GMT -5
I love that you really want to learn and are so enthusiastic. It's a pleasure to see your posts and wonderful to know that you are being such a good new Ferrent. Okay, here are some questions. Try to answer without looking at the above post. It will reinforce what you know and point out, any areas that you have questions on. 1. Can heat degrade Taurine? 2. Name two good protein sources for Taurine. 3. If you supplement with Taurine powder, what is the recommended dosage per ferret. 4. What can happen if a Ferret does not receive enough Taurine. 5. Can you name two animals that are low in Taurine? (trick question because the answer is not found in the article but nice to be aware of). 6. What organ is responsible for the biosynthesis of Taurine? 7. Lucky number seven: What percentage of Taurine is recommended in their weekly meal intake? You're a very good sport to take this little pop quiz. :wave3: 1) Taurine can be broken down by cooking or oxidization (being left out or exposed). Correct. Heat does, Freezing does not degrade Taurine 2) Heart and brainssssss mmm Heart is Correct, Tongue was the other answer that I was looking for. It actually has a little more. We suggest Heart because it is always moving. 3)200mg a day or roughly 1400 a week, unless the ferret was diagnosed with a heart condition. That is exactly what the article says. We've come to believe that 500 mg per day per ferret is preferable.
4) retinas, cardiovascular function, and production of bile were the 3 that it was most responsible for, so I'm going to say retina probelms, bad heart and blood system, and bad production of bile resulting in poorly digested food. Correct. That is one reason why simply feeding raw chicken/or a not balanced diet is so dangerous. It is rather common to just toss out meat in some countries and call it a raw diet. Another reason, that vets are not encouraging raw diets more. They can't assume a ferrent while take the time to learn about important nutrients. After all, we feed our children so much junk food and processed foods. Also, cats need less Taurine, so feeding a poor quality cat food can lead to severe issues such as blindness. 5) I'm gonna go out on a limb here , I'm gonna guess... clams or muscles. Animals that don't move much? I'm not sure haha. That was a hard question. Shellfish such as mussels and clams have a lot of taurine. They are constantly filtering and they follow the same "hard-working" scenario, concentrating taurine to a high degree in their tissues. Rabbit and Kangaroo are low in Taurine. Rabbit is commonly fed in alot countries as their primary meal. They are used for rabbit hunting and are working animals. and of course, kangaroo is common in Australia. I currently have a Mentee who is is Australia, so I've become aware of more exotic foods.
6) The Pancreas Correct, very good.7).10-.20% Since Taurine is water soluable (unlike Liver), they receive Taurine from alot of sources but it is eliminated naturally. In the Frankenprey diet, they receive Ten Percent of their weekly food intake from Heart. there are other small amounts found in chicken thighs and other animal proteins, but we want to insure that they receive a full ten percent.
So, while your answer is technically Correct, for our purposes, we talk about ten percent. One full meal of Heart and one half meal of Heart (or tongue)
If Space Dandy eats 4 ounces a day, times seven meals then that is 28 ounces in one week. Ten percent of that would be 2.8 ounces. You can configure that any way you like, but that is his goal amount. Following the Frankenprey diet, he would have it in two meals. One meal of 1/4 liver and 1/4 other organ and a half 1/4 ounces of Heart One full meal of Heart as a muscle meat. Which is a light meal, so mine always get an extra snack that day. It's not exactly a precise science because we simply cannot make sure that they eat exactly ten percent a week. In the wild, they don't munch on a prairie dog or a mouse and get to the Heart and say "oops, I have to stop now, I'm at my ten percent of Heart.
You did great on your first Pop Quiz. I'm glad you were willing to play along. It's Ferrents like you, that make it a pleasure to be on the HFF. :wave3:
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 8:13:29 GMT -5
And now I know! And knowing is half the battle! G.I. Joeeeee! (Sorry I couldn't help it) This stuff is fun to me. I look forward to my trips here during breaks in the day. Its people like you, that are the reason I keep coming back. I love it here and learned more than I ever thought I would in this amount of time. So you could say I'm pretty darn pleased haha.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 9:09:55 GMT -5
And now I know! And knowing is half the battle! G.I. Joeeeee! (Sorry I couldn't help it) This stuff is fun to me. I look forward to my trips here during breaks in the day. Its people like you, that are the reason I keep coming back. I love it here and learned more than I ever thought I would in this amount of time. So you could say I'm pretty darn pleased haha. Puns and coffee. I love Puns!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 9:37:10 GMT -5
And now I know! And knowing is half the battle! G.I. Joeeeee! (Sorry I couldn't help it) This stuff is fun to me. I look forward to my trips here during breaks in the day. Its people like you, that are the reason I keep coming back. I love it here and learned more than I ever thought I would in this amount of time. So you could say I'm pretty darn pleased haha. Puns and coffee. I love Puns! Someone did mug all of our coffee at work. I'm going coffee-less today because no one knows where it went! It's been awful haha. I drink about a pot of coffee a day... I have problems with coffee...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 10:26:31 GMT -5
That was a very bad person. You need to track them down and make them do a coffee run. I will understand if your posts today get all wonky. What good is a coffee less brain?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2015 10:51:20 GMT -5
That was a very bad person. You need to track them down and make them do a coffee run. I will understand if your posts today get all wonky. What good is a coffee less brain? As long as you say so, so aye aye capi-tan.... it's already starting I'm going to McD's at lunch to go get some haha.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2015 8:57:12 GMT -5
Wow, I haven't been on for a couple days now. Got extremely busy over the last couple days. Figured I would touch base though. The meal plan is still going great, so far no issues what so ever. I also got half of their nails cut, I had to trick them with the salmon oil, and I can only get half done before they realize what I'm doing. Still working on the litter training. They did really well before but they kept having accidents towards the bottom of their cage, so I decided to move the litter box down there to see if it would help remove the accidents. Now they just decided on the litter box, and an entirely different spot. I know its not that its too dirty because I clean it every single day. I'm not sure what there deal is with that, I don't mind we've just been trying to work on some consistency.
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