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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2015 0:52:49 GMT -5
So, I want to get my kiddos switched over to a raw diet some time soon. I've got a good 12-15lbs of kibble still, but after researching about raw, the benefits, health improvement, coat improvement, control what goes into the diet, boost in energy levels, faster healing, less risk of disease(compared to kibble fed kiddos), and so on, it's definitely something I'm interested in. My boy is having major sensitivity after ECE exposure, any little change in food makes for some weird presents in the litter box. I have been reading on the thread intro to raw, but here's a few general questions I have: 1- What meats do you feed your kiddos, chicken, lamb, turkey, etc? 2-Where do you get your meats for the diet? 3-Do you use any freeze dried raw? 4-Best way to start the switch, soupie (especially for the really picky kiddos)? 5-How many times a day do they eat on raw as opposed to kibble feed ferrets? 6-Do you add in whole prey, is it an absolute must for raw? 7-How costly is it compared to a kibble diet? 8-Do you do both kibble and raw? One in the morning, the other later in the day? 9-How will the raw switch affect my boy with his system so sensitive right now, would it be better for him? 10-How many different meats do you have to feed in the raw diet? 11-Should the meats be switched up occasionally? I'm posting in a few other places(like my rescue's group), but I'm looking for opinions from a few different pages. Rowdy is my oldest, 8 and by far the PICKIEST. Chiquita is a little over a year(recovering from adrenal surgery at the moment) and isn't quite that stubborn on new things(compared to Rowdy). Ladikin will be 2 in August, she already likes freeze dried salmon for treats, (not too picky for me either). My youngest Sable, is almost three months. She LOVES egg yolk, or anything new just about. I'm not worried about time in which it'll take to get them switched, I've got plenty of patience with them (6 years with Rowdy has taught me that) and I'm home all day with my kiddos anyways. I've seen the frankenprey meal plan, but anyone wiling to offer some information/experience, that would be great. Hope none of my questions were stupid in anyway. I've seen ferrets at my rescue fed meat and the kibble fed, I can certainly see and feel the difference in them.
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Post by RedSky on Jun 14, 2015 9:27:10 GMT -5
Hi. I'm a first time ferrant, and only got my trio at Christmas but did a lot of research and fed raw from the go (fed my dog raw previously so not super new to that). I'll try to answer your questions as best I can. And the only stupid question is the one never asked. Ask away, we all need to learn and the people here are wonderful.
1- What meats do you feed your kiddos, chicken, lamb, turkey, etc? I feed chicken, duck, pheasant, pigeon, turkey, lamb, pork, beef, rabbit, quail, mice and probably missing a few... What ever I can get. Some even feed frogs. As long as the meat is from a reliable source it's generally okay to feed. Just watch out for wild caught with parasites and poisons. Some feed live mice, I always feed frozen thawed. I couldn't bring myself to kill or watch one being killed, but if you can raise your own then it's the best way to go to know they are getting the best quality.
2-Where do you get your meats for the diet? I use a few raw food supplies such as Durham Animal Feeds and Kiezerbrink, but also local pet shop, bigger pet shops, butchers, supermarkets.
3-Do you use any freeze dried raw? I'm currently looking to get some treats that are FDR (and they will most likely end up being dog treats). It's not as easy to get in the UK as some other places. Defiantly handy to have in the cupboard if you can get some. Look for the one for cats.
4-Best way to start the switch, soupie (especially for the really picky kiddos)? First thing to do is offer them something like a chicken wing or a piece of beef. You could try a few different meats and see what they do. If they refuse then probably best to start with soupie. I always keep soupie in the freezer, it's great to have on hand for any poorly ferrets and if you freeze it in little ice cube trays it doesn't take too long to thaw out. Mine get soupie as one meal a week now they are switched. I'm sure you have read it but if they don't have any interest in the soupies then just dab a bit on their noses every now and then, they will soon realise it's food.
5-How many times a day do they eat on raw as opposed to kibble feed ferrets? I think it's generally recommended with ferrets that are used to have kibble down 24/7 to have raw meat available too. Some where there is a list of how long each type of meat can be left out. Of course on warmer days the time is reduced but soupies is usually good for 6 hours. Some whole prey can be fine left out 48 hours. Ferrets are really good at knowing what is safe to eat and what isn't so you don't have to worry about soupies going bad over night and the ferrets eating it. A couple of hours here and there without food isn't going to hurt them, but I like to have food available at all times. Others feed them similar to how most feed dogs, put it down, they eat, pick up empty bowl, feed again in 12 hours ish. Some feed 1 or 3 times a day, most feed twice.
6-Do you add in whole prey, is it an absolute must for raw? No, it's not a must. I like to add it in, and somewhere there is a post about balancing whole, whether it's a mouse or a balanced commercial food or soupies, with a frankenprey diet. I personally like to feed a few meals of whole prey, I believe it's great for their teeth to work through fur and skin and I think it helps to clean them out. Sort of like us eating a high fibre meal. Painted a nice picture for you there didn't I? Sorry.
7-How costly is it compared to a kibble diet? Day to day costs of raw might be more expensive than a low to medium quality kibble, depending on where you get meats from, if you can buy in bulk and what meats you buy. Today I spent about £6.50 on heart, liver, kidney and a whole chicken. For my three ferrets it will last about 35+ meals. Of course they will need other things in their diet too, but compared to a high quality kibble it might be about on par. Long term you have to think about dental work on ferrets and possible illnesses that can be caused/made worse by feeding kibbles.
8-Do you do both kibble and raw? One in the morning, the other later in the day? Some people do, there needs to be a few hours between feeding one and the other. I personally don't. The kibble can dehydrate ferrets, as like cats they get most of their water from their food. With feeding any dry foods (including freeze dried raw and not adding water) you are dehydrating their little bodies. And kibble contains ingredients I wouldn't want my ferrets to eat. When I brought my ferrets home I planned on letting them eat the kibble they were used to for a week. They were used to a little raw meat and took to it so quickly and so I only fed them kibble for 3 days. The rest of the bag went into my homemade hamster and gerbil mixes. Suits them far better!
9-How will the raw switch affect my boy with his system so sensitive right now, would it be better for him? If he's having frequent loose stools feeding raw (especially soupies) will help to rehydrate him. You will have better control over what goes in if you make your own and you may find that he is actually sensitive to some meats such as chicken or beef but is fine say with lamb and duck. Many people have ferrets that don't do well on some meats, just remove those from the diet. My dog had many intolerances and allergies. He was all over with kibble, when we switched him to raw it really helped his stomach. Might be the same for your boy. It could of course be the non-digestible parts of his food that's irritating his stomach, just removing these could help a lot.
10-How many different meats do you have to feed in the raw diet? There is a minimum of 3 different proteins per week and a minimum of 1 meal a week of a red meat such as beef, pork, lamb, goat etc. There is no maximum.
11-Should the meats be switched up occasionally? Ferrets can be a bit fussy, some seem to forget that that meat is actually edible because they haven't seen it for a few weeks while others (or even the same ferrets) can refuse to eat a meal because they are fed up of it. I try to feed a wide variety and no more than one meat for 2 meals each week. Usually they have chicken and rabbit for two meals and everything else for one meal. Rabbit they really like and chicken is cheap. If I can't get rabbit for a while I cut it down to 1 meal and feed an extra meal of something else.
Have you seen the basic menus? Know the portions of each thing they need so the diet is balanced correctly?
I do things a little differently because I've struggled to get treats that I'm happy feeding them I use about 1oz of mince meat each day as treats. Sometimes more, sometimes less. I always use red meats for my muscle meats and since they have about 7oz over the course of the week that's pretty much 2 meals for my three at this time of year (they eat more in winter) so I re-jig my menu to make it balanced again. You really can play around with it once you've got it figured out but it's a good idea to post about what you're doing to make sure you haven't over looked anything or messed up the maths somewhere. Better to have everyone say yes or no than risk it being wrong.
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Post by FireAngel on Jun 14, 2015 10:18:21 GMT -5
I'm not a mentor and fairly new to this myself but hopefully I can be helpfull to you, 1- What meats do you feed your kiddos, chicken, lamb, turkey, etc? My beasties get, beef, lamb, chicken, duck, rabbit, quail, sardines, pork, mice, rats and guinea pigs. 2-Where do you get your meats for the diet? I get my meats from the grocery store, a butcher, rodent pro and hare today. 3-Do you use any freeze dried raw? As a staple no, I do have some for treats. 4-Best way to start the switch, soupie (especially for the really picky kiddos)? The soup is probably the best starting point for picky or older babies. It definitely does not hurt to give them small pieces of meat and see what they do first though. Your young one should be an easy transitsion. Are you willing to have them at different stages if one picks it up quicker? I know for some it is not a matter of willingingress as much as a matter of ability. (Seperate feedings may be needed but just not realistic for some.) 5-How many times a day do they eat on raw as opposed to kibble feed ferrets? Everyone has their own schedule but most do 2 feedings a day about 12 hours apart, some more and some if feeding whole prey may only put something out once a day or possibly if it is a large prey item even every other day as whole prey can last for 48 hours in good conditions. I do not think many do that most are2 times a day. I leave enough each feeding to last them until the next so they are never out of food. 6-Do you add in whole prey, is it an absolute must for raw? Yes I use whole prey. It is not an absolute nessicity for raw. The frankenprey prey model is designed to mimick the proportions they would eat in the wild with whole prey. So frankenprey prey is a completely balanced mode HERE is info on that. 7-How costly is it compared to a kibble diet? It is comparable in cost to a high quality kibble diet, possibly a little more out of pocket a month depending on prices and availability in your are but it saves in vet bills and teeth cleanings in the long run so should work out to be cheaper in the long term. 8-Do you do both kibble and raw? One in the morning, the other later in the day? When initially starting the switch I did do kibble and raw in one day. With my first 2 they were off kibble 3 days after I started the switch and with the younger one it took me about a week to get her completely off. I did use kibble in her raw to get her to eat it and just added less and less each feeding. It is not recommended to feed raw and kibble with in a couple of hours of each other because it can upset their tummies. How you choose to handle that will be up to you, you will have to find what works for you and the beasties. 9-How will the raw switch affect my boy with his system so sensitive right now, would it be better for him? The switch may be rough on him until you find the proteins that do not upset his belly but it will benefit him once you have figured out what he tolerates and what he doesn't. 10-How many different meats do you have to feed in the raw diet? You should have at least 3 different protein types with one of them being a red meat. Every protein has their own benefits some are richer in certain vitamins and minerals then others and balance is the goal. 11-Should the meats be switched up occasionally? I rotate their meats every day, some days they get a different protein type each meal and others it is the same for 2 meals. Rotation is good as it keeps the balance and they do not forget they can and do eat that particular thing. Hope that helped!
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Post by Heather on Jun 14, 2015 11:20:58 GMT -5
1- What meats do you feed your kiddos, chicken, lamb, turkey, etc?
I feed my own ground mix, frankenprey and whole prey. If its meats and its unadulterated (salted, brined or smoked) they eats.
2-Where do you get your meats for the diet? Everywhere....I belong to a raw coop. I buy sales at the grocery store. We have a specialty pet store that carries a huge variety of frozen meats (quite expensive to buy this way). I buy my prey from a reptile supplier. Many make use of ethnic markets as well. 3-Do you use any freeze dried raw? Never 4-Best way to start the switch, soupie (especially for the really picky kiddos)? soupies are the easiest to start on....read the switching threads..you can't post to them but you will get answers. The oldest ferret I've ever switched was a 9 yr old marshals kibble addict. That took me 3 months but I just switched two 6 and 7 yr old rescues that came in. Both had ECE. They switched on soupy in 24 hrs (they didn't come with any food) and now, 4 months later they're on full frankenprey and prey diets.
5-How many times a day do they eat on raw as opposed to kibble feed ferrets? My guys get fed once a day, unless health issues dictate otherwise
6-Do you add in whole prey, is it an absolute must for raw? I use prey because it's the ultimate balance but you don't have to feed it.
7-How costly is it compared to a kibble diet? I honestly don't know how people afford the stuff (kibbles) myself. To feed high end kibbles, with the end costs of insulinoma and a constant battle with dehydration...I don't know how anyone can afford to feed it
8-Do you do both kibble and raw? One in the morning, the other later in the day? I've not had kibble in my house in 30 yrs.
9-How will the raw switch affect my boy with his system so sensitive right now, would it be better for him? It may not affect his system at all. My two ECE kids stools were horrible when they came in. Two weeks later they were in excellent shape with a proper diet. That's not how it always works but at least when they have attacks on raw the moisture from their diet helps keep them hydrated. I'd love to say it would be the answer but it's not likely going to stop the attacks and you're going to have make adjustments depending on his sensitivities.
10-How many different meats do you have to feed in the raw diet? You have to feed a minimum of 3 proteins and that's the barest minimum. The more you feed the better your ferret's health will be because of the various micro-nutrients that are available to them.
11-Should the meats be switched up occasionally? Meats are switched daily unless a new protein is being offered at which time I will feed the same protein for a couple of days to get them used to it and to make sure no sensitivity is present
I do rescue/rehab and raise my own ferrets. By the way....there is no stupid questions ciao
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Post by FerretsnFalcons on Jun 14, 2015 12:02:19 GMT -5
Those are all good questions, there is no such thing as a stupid question here. I don't know much about dealing with ECE, but I'll respond to the questions that I have answers for. 1. What meats do you feed your kiddos, chicken, lamb, turkey, etc? I have fed my ferrets beef, turkey, goat, pork, and fish before. Currently though, they're on a menu of rabbit, duck, chicken, mice, rat, and guinea pig. I guess I should have a red meat in there, but they will not tolerate goat and Katie is severely allergic to beef. 2. Where do you get your meats for the diet?I order the mice from TSK feeders, I order the rabbit, chicken, rats, and guinea pigs from Rodentpro, and I get the duck from an international market. 3. Do you use any freeze dried raw? The only freeze dried raw they get is chicken liver treats. Remember, if you feed it as a diet you should rehydrate it. 5. How many times a day do they eat on raw as opposed to kibble feed ferrets? They get fed two times (once when I wake up, once when I go to bed), but the meals last them the whole day. 6. Do you add in whole prey, is it an absolute must for raw? I fed frankenprey for a while, but I have since switched to whole prey. My ferrets' poops have gotten so much better and they seem to like the taste more. Their favorite thing ever is mice. Whole prey is not a must, but I personally prefer it to frankenprey. 7. How costly is it compared to a kibble diet? When I fed kibble (just enough to get them through the switch), I fed Nature's Variety Instinct, and I think I must have spent about $50 a month for both ferrets. Now, I spend $29.42 a month for both, so only $14.71 per ferret. My secret is buying in BULK from Rodentpro. I have a chest freezer stocked with a year's worth of mice and 6 months' worth of the other whole prey and duck. It really cuts down on the shipping costs, which are enormous. However, I would not freeze anything for over 6 months because the taurine starts to degrade in the freezer over time. 8. Do you do both kibble and raw? One in the morning, the other later in the day? When I was switching them I fed them kibble in the morning and raw at night, but once I saw how much they liked the raw I ditched the kibble as soon as I could. 11. Should the meats be switched up occasionally? As long as you feed at least 3 different proteins in a week you should be fine, but more is always better. Switching things up could be problematic if you have a picky eater. I hope I have answered your questions sufficiently, and good luck with the switch! (dance)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2015 14:50:32 GMT -5
RedSky I mostly feed him a duck soup about three times a day with my girl Chiquita (separate from my other two) and then he gets only kibble over night in the cage, and kibble during the day if he wants it. FireAngel Absolutely, I do two separate feedings right now as it is (my four are spilt into 2 groups). Since my boy got ECE, he's been getting meds every 12 hours (which I know is how often ferrets are fed on raw), so the 12 hour apart feedings will seem like I've already been doing that. Heather Thanks for the ECE information, that's something I'm definitely concerned with. I'm hoping with the switch, things will settle down some in his system. FerretsnFalconsYes, the kibble is so expensive, oh my goodness! I spent a good $60 on three small bags, only received two because one is on backorder. If raw is going to be somewhat cheaper and better, then I definitely want to switch. I just want to thank everyone for answering my questions and giving their input, you've been a big help! As soon as I get a scale, a new coffee grinder for eggshells(last one burnt up on me), and a place to get my meats from, I'll be signing up for a mentor!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2015 14:52:32 GMT -5
Just an added note, I'm very committed to doing a raw switch, I'll do anything for my babies. ❤ When Rowdy first got ECE(before he was hospitalized), I went 30 hours, no food, sleep, or drinks at all because I was more concerned for him than myself, my babies definitely come first.
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Post by Heather on Jun 14, 2015 15:40:59 GMT -5
If you're willing to put in the time, there is no ferret that won't switch. I've had more than 60 ferrets call this their forever home. Everyone was fed a raw diet. Some never got off the grind but others leaped into it and they were often the ones you weren't expecting. Little Babushka (my 9 yr old kibble addict), came to me more dead than alive. Her person said she was surrendering her because she couldn't stand to watch her die and she figured she only had a few weeks. Wee Babushka (she never did weigh over a pound, even at her best) lived for another 18 months and her favourite meal was mice. She loved their tails (most ferrets eat heads first). She would go around and steal all the mouse tails left behind from everyone else. She had a partner in crime, Lady Pooka who was almost 8 yrs old when she came in. They never mixed with the rest of the business, so would get their separate playtimes. They would go around to everyone else's stashes and eat their favourite bits. ciao
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2015 22:56:41 GMT -5
Heather I'm definitely willing to put in the time to switch them over, I spend just about all day everyday playing with my fuzzies or snapping pictures when they've curled up to sleep.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2015 23:58:44 GMT -5
Heather I haven't bought anything yet, but I've been doing lots of reading, looking at meal plans, meats to get, and I've made a "mock" diet plan to see if I'm getting a good idea of what a raw feeding would be. Let me know if I'm even close to in the ballpark. If I am, then I'll start buying meats within the next couple days and sign up for a mentor. My plan is to get at least four different meats to start, so here's what I came up with: Mock Raw Meal Plan: Monday- chicken thigh Monday- chicken thigh Tuesday- turkey neck Tuesday- ground turkey Wednesday- mutton ribs Wednesday- turkey heart Thursday- mutton ribs Thursday- muton ribs Friday- turkey neck Friday- turkey heart, pork liver, beef kidney (in correct proportions) Saturday- chicken thigh Saturday- ground beef Sunday- mutton ribs Sunday- pork liver/ beef kidney (in correct proportions)
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Post by RedSky on Jun 16, 2015 7:25:42 GMT -5
You're bones might be a bit dense, especially for ferrets that aren't used to crunching bone. A few swaps might be chicken thighs to wings turkey necks to duck necks mutton ribs to rabbit ribs
It looks like you have everything in the right place. Mine need the full 9 meals of bone in, but you might find yours do better with 7 or 8, and more muscle meats, it just varies. Easy to monitor though, stools too firm just feed an extra muscle meat meal.
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Post by Heather on Jun 16, 2015 11:07:57 GMT -5
That was my first thought too....the bones you've chosen are too dense for a beginner ferret. The proteins are great but they're not going to eat those bones. Ferrets are a lazy chew, they don't gnaw on bones, they eat them. A dog will chew for pleasure a ferret eats. If a ferret can get by on it they will eat the meat off the bone and leave you the bone. My guys have never been big chicken wing fans but they love quail (all of it). Chicken necks seem to go over with my crew vs the chicken wings but some ferrets love the wings...it's a lot of trial and error. My guys will eat the top part of a turkey neck (the narrow end) but not the bottom (the dog gets that ) Mutton, they just clean off the bone and leave the rest. Rabbit is a good feed...my guys will eat the whole thing. ciao
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2015 13:00:56 GMT -5
Thank you both for the suggestions! I'll definitely get a denser bone. Good to hear I've got everything in the right place, that was a big concern for me to make sure it's balanced. Getting the scale and grinder today hopefully, possibly looking at meats too! When I do start the switch, they'll all be getting the soup for a starter, tried some raw chicken the other day (with a favorite treat and kibble powder), but my 3 month old and 2 year old just licked all that off, they ate maybe ONE TINY piece and left the rest. My 3 month old likes cooked chicken though, she steals pieces from me when I'm slicing it up.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2015 13:12:50 GMT -5
RedSky Heather How does this look, I've got about six different meats now and heather I was thinking about buying the necks if I ordered from hare today, gone tomorrow. I've got the four furkids and was told roughly 5-6lbs per ferret a month, correct me if that's wrong. Mock Raw Meal Plan: Monday- chicken wing Monday- chicken wing Tuesday- duck neck Tuesday- ground turkey Wednesday- rabbit ribs Wednesday- turkey heart Thursday- rabbit ribs Thursday- rabbit ribs Friday- duck neck Friday- turkey heart, pork liver, beef kidney (in correct proportions) Saturday- chicken wing Saturday- ground beef Sunday- rabbit ribs Sunday- pork liver/beef kidney (in correct proportions)
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Post by RedSky on Jun 17, 2015 15:52:21 GMT -5
Looks good to me. Like I said before you may have too much bone or it may be perfect for your ferrets. Mine have as many bone meals as possible, not by their choice though haha.
As for how much they eat, it can vary so much. In winter my three were eating upto and sometimes even past 10oz per day, now they have settled more on raw some days they don't even eat 4oz. At one point my little girl was eating about 0.5oz a day! My three get 6oz a day in summer, 9oz in winter but I'm around a lot so an top up their bowls if they need more, usually there is some left at the next meal.
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