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Post by FerretsnFalcons on Feb 27, 2015 0:42:33 GMT -5
I really want to switch my dogs to a raw diet, but before I do I need to make sure my menu is good, and I need another freezer. So I'm in the planning stage right now, and I know a few of you raw feed your dogs and I was hoping you could help me out. First, some basic info about my dogs. My first dog is Riley, a Soft-coated Wheaten Terrier who is 11 years old. She weighs 35 pounds. Her teeth are ruined from kibble, and she's having a dental cleaning on Wednesday. Will she be able to eat the bones? Pork bones are my main concern. My next dog is Charlie, a German Shepherd, about 3 years old. He weighs 70 pounds. He seems to have some kind of allergy, and I'm not sure if it's a food allergy or not (but I'm hoping not)! Both dogs are good about not gulping their food. Ok, so here's the menu plan, I modeled it around the ferrets' but with less bone. The portions are for Charlie, but for Riley just halve it since she is half his weight.
Monday: AM- 12oz Turkey Muscle (Muscle) PM- 12oz Bone-in Chicken (Bone)
Tuesday: AM- 6oz Chicken Liver, 6oz Pork Uterus, and 1 Raw Egg (Organ) PM- 12oz Pork Neck (Bone)
Wednesday: AM- 6oz Beef Feet, 6oz Bone-in Duck (.5 Muscle, .5 Bone) PM- 12oz Turkey Neck (Bone)
Thursday: AM- 12oz Beef Lips (Muscle) PM- 12oz Pork Tails (Bone)
Friday: AM- 3oz Pork Uterus, 3oz Beef Liver, 6oz Beef Heart, and 1 Raw Egg (.5 Organ, .5 Muscle) PM- 12oz Bone-in Chicken (Bone)
Saturday: AM- 12oz Pork Heart (Muscle) PM- 6oz Chicken Gizzards and 6oz Bone-in Chicken (.5 Muscle, .5 Bone)
Sunday: AM- 12oz Pork Ribs (Bone) PM- 12oz Gasper Goo Fish (Muscle)
Summary: 5.5 Muscle Meals 1.5 Organ Meals 7 Bone-in Meals
2 Meals Turkey 3.5 Meals Chicken 2.25 Meals Beef 4.75 Meals Pork 1 Meal Fish .5 Meal Duck
Obviously the amount of bone will depend based on the dog, but is this about right? I would love to buy green tripe, but I have no idea where I would get it except online, and it seems really expensive (I'm trying to keep costs at $2 per pound or under). Also, I'm thinking about spreading the organs more evenly throughout the week so the dogs don't get slammed with a full organ meal. If dog organ poops are anything like ferret organ poops, that will NOT be fun to pick up in the morning, lol. One last thing: my German Shepherd's teeth are a bit plaque-y, should I make him an appointment for a dental cleaning too and then put him on a raw diet once his teeth are all clean and healthy, or should I just put him on the diet as-is (will the bones clean off all the plaque?) Thanks in advance guys!
Edit: Typo! Charlie is actually 70lbs, not 76.
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Post by linsul on Feb 27, 2015 3:18:34 GMT -5
When it comes to dogs they are so much easier than ferrets to raw feed. I think it can be said objectively, because their metabolisms aren't so super duper fast as ferrets. You have room to mess up and adjust with them, I know I did, and both of mine are still breathing Balance over time for a dog is much more forgiving I think. You can observe as you go and make changes as you see fit pretty safely in my experience with dogs. Okay it's been awhile and I'm all in a "routine" with mine so I'll probably forget things but I'll take a crack at it. One of the first things you'll want to do is determine the weight of the food you're giving them. I follow 2-3 percent of their "ideal" body weight. Not the one they are currently at (unless it's already optimal), but where they are considered healthiest for their breed. For my Great Pyrenees Ahsoka I do 2% as her metabolism is slower and she doesn't require a lot of food. My labrador's metabolism is much faster, and she's much more active so I do 3% for her. Labs also like to get chunky so I find I switch her up weight-wise seasonally or by activity level. You can increase or decrease as you go. For example: Take your dog's weight (or desired weight) and multiply x 16. This will give you your dog's weight in ounces. Multiply his/her weight in ounces x .02 (or .03 for 3 %) My labrador Anakin weighs 74 pounds. She weighs 1184 ounces. (74 x16) I multiply her weight in ounces times 3% to get the feeding amount of 35.52 ounces. ( 1184 x .03) I round it off to 36 ounces of food per day for Anakin, or approximately 2.25 pounds. I say approximately because I don't always weigh her food. She may get 2 lbs one day and 2.5 the next, it's been so long I eyeball it now. If I like what I see and feel on the dogs I keep on keepin' on. I don't know much about Wheaten Terriers aside from they're super cute. Do they have any breed specific intolerances to rich foods? Metabolism concerns or quirks? You'll want to find these out if possible. I'd help but I'm not sure. GSD's have none that I know of, there are a few GSD 'siblings' on my GP forum and nobody has ever mentioned them anyway but don't take my word for it! I don't want to comment erroneously on your menu plan because of that, maybe someone will know better! Their poops may be weird if you go cold turkey, some canned pumpkin at first is great to help keep things firm. Raw fed dog poop is glorious. So much smaller, and in the summer here if it dries up before I get to scooping then sometimes it just crumbles like chalky dust. Regarding teeth, if your Wheaten is going on Wednesday I'd ask the vet for any concerns chewing after the teeth have been looked at. With your GSD, if it's just plaque and they're structurally sound I'd go for it. My lab was 2 or 3 when we switched to raw and she had some funk, but bones took care of that nicely. Now do some math and lets play with meals You've got a great start, I would add some sardines and mackerel, and make sure they get the eggshell along with the eggs! Phosphorous/Calcium ratio is important for dogs. I give them eggs on fish days because I don't do bone in meats those days.
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Post by linsul on Feb 27, 2015 3:49:14 GMT -5
Separate post because I wrote a book above and I really want you to see this: If you doubt your Wheaten's ability to eat a bone, don't give it to her. Ask the vet and then STILL follow your instincts. Anakin once at a beef bone and swallowed a chunk, guess who had to help her when it came time to poo? It wasn't pretty. Not a huge piece, but it was turned funny in the moment of truth and she was crying. Had to take her to the vet and make sure she wasn't busted internally, turns out she just inhales her food. Now I know to give her tiny bones or ones that are so big she has to scrape, bite sized ones she'll just swallow like a dog-pig-beast. Gross, but worth passing on.
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Post by FerretsnFalcons on Feb 27, 2015 20:28:06 GMT -5
Thank you for your response, you're like my dog diet mentor. Don't worry about me not reading your "book," it is super helpful and informative, and I'm grateful that you took the time to write it! Plus, I am a fellow "book" writer. My Wheaten Riley has been fairly healthy so far (except for the three times we had to rush to the vet because she swallowed a cooked chicken drumstick, a piece of rubber, and corn cobs ). She does have urinary incontinence, but she's fine with her medicine. Wheatens as a whole are generally pretty hardy, but they are prone to corn wheat and soy allergies, PLN and PLE (protein-losing malabsorption diseases) and IBD, but Riley hasn't shown symptoms of any of these diseases. I will make sure my mom asks the vet about Riley's chewing abilities because she scheduled the appointment during school hours and I can't go.I'm just worried that her teeth may be sore after the cleaning. Although I'm kind of ashamed to admit it, I'm almost 100% sure she has mid-level to advanced periodontal disease. She's never had a tooth cleaning before, her teeth are yellow-orange, her breath stinks, and she's been eating Science Diet all her life until recently when we switched her to Wellness Core, which is what Charlie has been eating. Here's a picture of Charlie's teeth, unfortunately I don't have one of Riley: Both dogs seem to be at optimal weight, the ribs are able to be felt with light pressure and are not prominent. Here is the best side-view picture I have of Charlie, to give you an idea of his physique (sorry, it's not the best photo: He is lanky for a German Shepherd, I don't even know if he is a pure German Shepherd. He sure doesn't follow the AKC standards or anything. He is moderately active, he spends a good portion of the day chillin' but also loves to play fetch and run around outside. So do you think 24 ounces a day would be a good starting point for him, or should I increase it? A while ago I had some extra meat in the freezer so I gave Charlie a special treat, his very first all raw meal. It was goat chunks, chicken hearts, apple, and an egg. He just loved it, he seemed like he savored it and kept going back and licking the bowl. I honestly was preparing for him to throw it up or have explosive diarrhea, but he was actually fine and just had a light colored, abnormally soft poo the next day. And here's another picture of him toothy grinning, just cause I think he's cute: Do sardines/mackerels have more nutrients than other fish? Because I have gasper goo fish on the menu, I saw that it was 99 cents a pound at the market last time I went to get ferret food, and was fresh wild-caught (so I'd have to freeze it for a week, right?) Gasper goo are 5-15lb freshwater fish that eat insects, mussels, and small fish. Ah, see? I have written a book just like a said I would! Once again, thank you so much for helping me out with this. PS, feel free to answer the freezer question that I posted on your Great Pyrenees thread on here instead. I don't know why I went and posted the question on your thread when I have my own!
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Post by linsul on Feb 27, 2015 22:42:44 GMT -5
Haha yeah we're totally cross posting in each others threads it's funny I'll keep it here from now on so you can access this specifically along with anything other raw canine feeders have to say. There's so much latitude in raw feeding dogs! It's generally accepted (and by that I mean the sources I've checked plus Lab and GP forums. It's been years so I don't have many current links but PLEASE feel free to fact check me on anything) that a balanced food cycle for a dog is 3 weeks, assuming your ratios are correct with bone-in, muscle, and organs. Full disclosure: I don't weigh anything anymore or anything like that so there may be gaps in what I say I'm more than happy to have others fill! It's good to know the numbers at first until you and your dog get into the full swing of raw so I'll do my best. It's very much my pleasure to help any way I can! Firstly, with Riley all is not lost if bones aren't an option. Maybe chicken backs will be, maybe you'll have to supplement with powder, but you can get around it. I don't know anything about that though so I can't give any direction, it's just doable. The tooth cleaning aspect will be lost though, so hopefully tooth brushing is an option for after the sparkly smile treatment at the vet! Charlie is awesome, his teeth don't look too bad to start on raw to me, similar to Anakin's. Start him out, give him raw meaty bones as treats throughout the week and let him sort it for awhile. He may clean himself up nicely! As long as they're structurally good that may very well happen, it did for Anakin. Love his coat, GSD's have great coloration. Watching that change will be so fun for you! His patiently waiting for food photo is great, they're so happy to eat when it's raw, at least you know he's a fan Okay, now super fun math time. He's 70lbs, just starting out, and GSD's are pretty athletic dogs. I'd go with 3% personally, change it if he gets chubby. Your meat choices are just fine, so I'm going to do the math for Charlie and you can use what you have from there. Just switch it up for balance over time. Charlie weighs 70 pounds. He weighs 1120 ounces. (70 x16) Multiply his weight in ounces times 3% to get the feeding amount of 33.6 ounces. ( 1120 x .03) 33.6 ounces = 2.1 pounds per meal. Of that 2.1 lbs, you want this breakdown of nutrition: 80% meat, sinew, ligaments, fat (For Charlie 1.68 pounds) 10% edible bone ( For Charlie .21 lbs, which equals 3.36 ounces) 5% liver (For Charlie 1.68 ounces) 5% other organ meat (For Charlie 1.68 ounces) Rinse and repeat for Riley once you get the lowdown from the vet and such. If you have a scale go ahead and use it. For me and my dogs who are close to Charlie's weight, I started them on quartered chickens (one) for their bone in portion. I added any variety of boneless meat to make up the 80% and then the organs. I do give mine raw meaty bones throughout the week to make sure their calcium is good, dogs get phosphorous from their meats. Excess calcium is excreted through urine, and it can inhibit phosphorous absorption in high levels, but it takes a lot to do that and raw fed dogs get a lot of meat to make up for any imbalanced days that may occur. It's something to keep in mind, but not obsess over. If the poops are solid or even chalky when dried and they aren't straining, then good! If they're loose, more bones. As far as fish goes I think canned salmon is best, but I'm cheap! I'd rather spend money on bones and such and use a cheaper canned fish like mackerel or sardines for oils and omegas. I haven't heard of Gasper Goo, but if you like what you hear then why not? Try it out. Canned pumpkin, eggs, etc: Keep in mind those will take up some of your allotted weight. I take it from the boneless meat portion, I don't sacrifice bones. It's not much weight, but it's something to be aware of. Supplements: I wouldn't start any just yet. I *would* start them later, like 2 weeks to a month if everything is going great with your pups. Vitamin E and glucosamine are 2 I use, I also sometimes use vitamin C for Ahsoka. Someone said it was good for them when they're growing out winter coats, along with fish and fats. It's not much so I go ahead and do it while she's in full fluff growth mode. Glucosamine I use for both dogs since they're big, Ahsoka 3 times a week since she's young, and Anakin every day since she's getting older and is still very much a spazz on her old joints. Veggies/fruits! They don't need them, but it won't hurt them in small amounts. Obviously no garlic, onions, grapes. Even the "hurt" from what I've seen is gas and tummy rumbling, no actual damage in quarter cup doses. I'm being specific in the dose because they *do* have a use! They add bulk to the meals of chubby dogs who would otherwise act starving! Dogs do produce amylase to help break them down, but they don't have any of the heavy hitting enzymes to do so. If you go this route, blending them into glop will help. They can't chew them, so it's puree if they're to get anything they can aside from bulk out of them. I *only* use them for bulk in a chubby phase though, and *only* in quarter cup weight. Canned green beans are my go-to for those times. I have to go clean my kitchen up now and stuff, so I hope that helps! I wish I had a great closer but you've got some meats picked out and the numbers to start getting going. Good luck, post pics of your dogs nomming
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Post by Celene on Mar 1, 2015 16:17:51 GMT -5
I was at my parents' last night and was in the closet getting the vacuum (their bird was eating millet... Trust me, it's messy) and I decided to take a look at the food they feed their dog. The first ingredient was brown rice followed by corn (apparently it was a special formula recommended by the vet to support his liver?)... Needless to say I recommended my mom get a different brand of food and she asked me about raw. Their dog is a chihuahua rescue and he has no teeth. (The vets think he was a stud dog for a puppy mill or something because all his teeth had been removed and he wasn't neutered.) Anyway, needless to say he can't eat bone. I'm pretty sure he'd be fine with the raw meat if it was tenderized with a mallet or cut small, because just like linsul's Anakin, Buddy (my parents' dog) inhales his food anyway. But with bones, I don't think he'll ever be able to "eat" bones. Can a dog on a raw diet get by on bone meal long-term? I guess they wouldn't really need to worry about the bones not cleaning his teeth... I am going to look around the web and see if I can find any good resources on raw feeding dogs which are laid out in an easy-to-follow manner for my mom, but just wanted to start here since this thread was already touching on a few topics I was curious about
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Post by RedSky on Mar 1, 2015 16:40:59 GMT -5
@celene I would suggest doing something similar to when starting ferrets on raw, basically getting something containing smaller bones (chicken wings, cornish game hen, quail) and just chopping and chopping until it is a mush or in fairly small pieces to feed. I got 13 chicken wings in a packet today for the ferrets and since they are still struggling with the bone in stuff I bash them with the cleaver to make the bones into tiny bits but still connected with the meat so they can chew, I can chop the wing into small pieces after the bones have been bashed if I want/need to so that could be an option. You could also make a souplie style meal if prefered and use bonemeal or egg shell, pretty much the same as for ferrets, this could be the base but I personally think that he should have some actual bones even if they are all smashed up. The other way would be to feed a balanced commercial grind (something like minced whole pheasant/chicken/beef/whatever), some more expensive places will make the correct portion sizes for your dog, for such a small dog it might be affordable.
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Post by linsul on Mar 1, 2015 17:09:06 GMT -5
I'm doing a quick google search and seeing what I find for small dogs with no teeth. Very sad that he has no teeth if he was used and abused in a puppy mill manner, glad he's got a good home now! Good luck if your parents make a switch for Buddy! From what I've read on forums elsewhere dogs will "chew" even with no teeth and pulp their food, but only if it's bigger than bite sized. Smaller bits they'll swallow whole which isn't desirable for digestion. There was one guy who smashed up chicken backs for a rescue pet, still got the bone, still had to gnaw on it a bit to break it up, but no sharp edges. I don't know anything personally about eggshell powder or bone meal long term, but if it meets the nutritional requirement for calcium I cautiously say "why not?" Whole ground and smashed chicken wings/necks/backs seem to be the options I see most. On the second thread one of the commenters mentions fiber with calcium supplementation, I imagine to avoid constipation from such an easily digestible calcium source. www.dogster.com/forums/Raw_Food_Diet/thread/773265www.dogster.com/forums/Raw_food_diet/thread/760606www.pitbull-chat.com/showthread.php/118171-Starting-my-toothless-dog-on-raw-today!
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Post by Celene on Mar 1, 2015 18:28:58 GMT -5
I used Red Dog Blue Kat commercial raw to switch my girls. It's made locally and really quite good. I used the "cat" one which is 98% meat and 2% juiced veggies (mostly green, leafy ones). The dog formula is 75% meat and 25% juiced veggies. Are dogs supposed to have veggies, or can they simply tolerate it but should have more meat?
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Post by FerretsnFalcons on Mar 2, 2015 1:13:42 GMT -5
Celene, my understanding is that there are two basic kinds of canine raw feeders: those who feed BARF model (75% meat, bones, organs, and 25% pulverized vegetables) and those who feed prey model (100% bones, meat, and organs.) Dogs seem to thrive on both of these, so it's my opinion that vegetables aren't really necessary, but they aren't harmful like they are with obligate carnivores. Still, this is a controversial topic, as some people believe vegetables aren't necessary as wolves don't consume a lot of vegetable matter except when they can't find prey, while others believe that dogs have been raised for millennia on human "table scraps," including vegetables, and they contain nutrients that dogs need to thrive. So it's really up to the dog owner to decide which route they want to take. As for me, I think I'm going the prey model raw route, with the dogs getting occasional cooked veggies as treats. linsul, you mentioned that you use Vitamin E and glucosamine as supplements. I know that glucosamine is for healthy joints, but what is Vitamin E for? Also, is it possible for me to use pig ears, snouts, etc. as a source of glucosamine instead of the powdered supplement? It seems cheaper to buy ears and stuff, but the problem is that I don't know how much glucosamine is in the cartilage, so I wouldn't know how much to feed. And would I use it like a daily treat, or part of their diet plan/menu? If you think the ears/snouts aren't such a good idea, what brand of supplement do you use? I looked up some and I've seen ones with added chondroitin, some with brewers yeast, some with citric acid, and I don't know what's best to use. Finally, I read through almost the entire Leerburg website, and it was really helpful and interesting, but I couldn't seem to find anything on menu plans. As always, thank you so much for your help!
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Post by Heather on Mar 2, 2015 2:10:41 GMT -5
No matter what your bone, meat and organ ratio is always the same....it doesn't matter if it's whole prey, frankenprey or commercial grinds. A dog without teeth has to eat bone just the same as a dog with teeth...bone is absolutely necessary and there is no way around it. YOu can make do for a period of time but in the long run you absolutely have to feed bone. Feed it ground if you cannot feed it whole but remember there is NO supplement for bone...NONE. You have to feed it. Even a tiny chihuahua can eat whole bone. Feed it the same diet as you would your ferret. The only difference is you do not have to feed as much bone as you do your ferret. If the stools are white and dry, up the amount of meat or drop back on the amount of bone...simple. ciao
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Post by RedSky on Mar 2, 2015 8:02:28 GMT -5
For a joint supplement the best thing I have found in yumove, they come as sort of green tablets but my dog always loved them. I also used yumega as an extra help with joint, coat and skin. I do really like the brand and found it worked better for my dog than any of the other supplements I tried with him. I started after he had developed arthritis (ideally should have had long before) and I had tried so many other things with little to no difference and then my OH's step mum recommended these (she work as a dispensary at a vets) and they worked wonders. Not too expensive either.
As for the veg, fruits and carbs. I would feed carbs as table scraps, such as if we had porridge for breakfast he would have some with water or goats milk and I would give him plain wholegrain rice (I don't cook it with salt or anything) until we did an allergy test and he is allergic to everything but potatoes. Some fruits can be helpful to boost their immune system (depending on where/what you read) and can have other helpful properties. I often fed bits and had a fruit bowl on the table within his reach so he could help himself (pears, apples, berries, carrots - not fruit I know), some feed banana often but I've heard downsides to that too. This was just something for him to chew on and to eat if he felt hungry but wasn't time for his next meal. Veg I always fed cooked, stuff like a bit of broccoli, carrot, cauliflower, peas, greens, what ever we were having really. I never mixed it in with his food so it was a take it or leave it snack more than anything. If you want the none meat food to be used/absorbed it needs to be cooked or thrown in the blender. 25% veg isn't too bad, I would put my parents lab on that as he needs to loose some weight. But I personally would probably go for that and add in extra bits from the supermarket or feed the cat (or the cat and the dog food mixed together). Often cat food is more expensive though.
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Post by linsul on Mar 2, 2015 9:42:24 GMT -5
Celene, my understanding is that there are two basic kinds of canine raw feeders: those who feed BARF model (75% meat, bones, organs, and 25% pulverized vegetables) and those who feed prey model (100% bones, meat, and organs.) Dogs seem to thrive on both of these, so it's my opinion that vegetables aren't really necessary, but they aren't harmful like they are with obligate carnivores. Still, this is a controversial topic, as some people believe vegetables aren't necessary as wolves don't consume a lot of vegetable matter except when they can't find prey, while others believe that dogs have been raised for millennia on human "table scraps," including vegetables, and they contain nutrients that dogs need to thrive. So it's really up to the dog owner to decide which route they want to take. As for me, I think I'm going the prey model raw route, with the dogs getting occasional cooked veggies as treats. linsul, you mentioned that you use Vitamin E and glucosamine as supplements. I know that glucosamine is for healthy joints, but what is Vitamin E for? Also, is it possible for me to use pig ears, snouts, etc. as a source of glucosamine instead of the powdered supplement? It seems cheaper to buy ears and stuff, but the problem is that I don't know how much glucosamine is in the cartilage, so I wouldn't know how much to feed. And would I use it like a daily treat, or part of their diet plan/menu? If you think the ears/snouts aren't such a good idea, what brand of supplement do you use? I looked up some and I've seen ones with added chondroitin, some with brewers yeast, some with citric acid, and I don't know what's best to use. Finally, I read through almost the entire Leerburg website, and it was really helpful and interesting, but I couldn't seem to find anything on menu plans. As always, thank you so much for your help! Vitamin E is something I use primarily for skin and coat health, but it's also good for cardiovascular health as well. Glucosamine is something that has to be given very regularly for optimal results so if you can consistently provide natural sources then I'd say go for it and keep a back up source on hand just in case. You make a good point in not knowing how much is being given with those sources though, a supplement does make that part easier. I use Pet Naturals or Terra Max glucosamine, Anakin is older so I want to make sure she's getting it. For vitamin E I just use human capsules punctured and poured over their food, and vitamin C powder form on their food as well. I found a list of all the supplement/vitamin perks and/or claims, I'll link it. Definitely research pros and cons, I can't speak to any aside from glucosamine and vitamins e and c which are the only ones I use. www.paw-rescue.org/PAW/PETTIPS/DogTip_vitamins.phpI found the Leerburg sample menu too leerburg.com/diet2.htm
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Post by linsul on Mar 2, 2015 9:54:12 GMT -5
I used Red Dog Blue Kat commercial raw to switch my girls. It's made locally and really quite good. I used the "cat" one which is 98% meat and 2% juiced veggies (mostly green, leafy ones). The dog formula is 75% meat and 25% juiced veggies. Are dogs supposed to have veggies, or can they simply tolerate it but should have more meat? I think it's tolerate personally, but this *THE* great debate in raw feeding, I've seen people get completely emo about this and war online. There's something to be said for domestication and living on scraps, and there's something to be said for wolves ignoring the stomach contents of larger animals. Their digestive systems and anatomical structure suggest the more meat the better. I mostly think it's the petfood industry making carbs "okay" because they love it as a filler so much. I do too, a quarter cup of veggie puree is great when my lab is getting chubby yet acting starved. That's the only "use" I see for veggies. I've never heard of anything worse than gas in a dog that's only given veggies in small amounts. If the dogs are a great weight and have good tone I ditch the veggies though, it's purely a comfort food filler for weight loss times in our case.
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Post by Celene on Mar 2, 2015 10:01:37 GMT -5
Thanks! I will suggest for my mom the commercial raw then. It's already ground (with bone included) so he'll be able to scarf it down no problem, and money isn't really an issue for my parents.
I think I will suggest the "dog" one with 25% veggies as the little guy is a little chubby. My parents recently went away for two weeks and my brother took care of him... When they came back he had lost a whole pound! Why? Because my brother stuck to kibble, while my mom gives Buddy table scraps all the time. I don't think I'll be able to convince her to give up that habit though... They are recent empty-nesters so he is incredibly spoiled and their "baby".
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