|
Post by gfountain on Mar 22, 2015 13:36:27 GMT -5
Do the boys usually eat gizzards ok? Doubling the size is a pretty good increase, so that was very likely the problem. Just go back to the size they're used to for a meal and then increase just a little each meal. We want them to not realize that their pieces are getting bigger.
Since Flexie hesitated with her first lunch (lol @ first) for her next lunch, don't increase the raw. Just keep the same ratio as you did earlier. If she hesitates again, do the same ratio for the following meal also. We don't want to cause a setback by pushing her TOO quickly.
Instead of making more soup for Leela, let's see if we can wean her off the soup this week. Just cut her some small chunks of thigh meat. Put them on a dish and put a tiny bit (like a teaspoon or so) of the soup on top like gravy. Then pour a little FDR tea on top. It's time for her to catch up to the boys! Once she is eating the chunks without the soup or with just a tiny bit of soup, we can start working on balancing her diet.
|
|
|
Post by gfountain on Mar 22, 2015 13:43:11 GMT -5
Let's start working on a 'goal menu', the menu you want everyone to follow eventually. I looked back at the boys' menu and it looks like your proportions are correct, but you could use some more proteins. What meats do you have available in your area?
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2015 19:09:24 GMT -5
Do the boys usually eat gizzards ok? Doubling the size is a pretty good increase, so that was very likely the problem. Just go back to the size they're used to for a meal and then increase just a little each meal. We want them to not realize that their pieces are getting bigger.Yes, they normally like chicken gizzards. I usually slice each lobe in quarters, but I just chopped them in half instead. I was trying to have them eat bigger chunks, but maybe my evil plan was too obvious. I forgot that I was supposed to be sneaky about it!! I will cute them in smaller slices next Saturday. Since Flexie hesitated with her first lunch (lol @ first) for her next lunch, don't increase the raw. Just keep the same ratio as you did earlier. If she hesitates again, do the same ratio for the following meal also. We don't want to cause a setback by pushing her TOO quickly. I know... first lunch. lol Kibble eaters gotta eat often! I really should check this thread more frequently! I just read your comment, and I have already increased the raw amount for her second lunch. She, of course, hesitate again, but she finished what I gave her in my lap. I will step back for her dinner, and see how she does. Instead of making more soup for Leela, let's see if we can wean her off the soup this week. Just cut her some small chunks of thigh meat. Put them on a dish and put a tiny bit (like a teaspoon or so) of the soup on top like gravy. Then pour a little FDR tea on top. It's time for her to catch up to the boys! Once she is eating the chunks without the soup or with just a tiny bit of soup, we can start working on balancing her diet.Ok! I have confidence in her. I am very excited!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2015 21:27:42 GMT -5
Let's start working on a 'goal menu', the menu you want everyone to follow eventually. I looked back at the boys' menu and it looks like your proportions are correct, but you could use some more proteins. What meats do you have available in your area? I have seen pheasants and rabbits at the farmers' market. I'm not sure if they are bone-in though. I have to check. There are many Asian markets in my town, so SOMEONE has to have frog legs, right? I'll have to drive around. The store I usually go to doesn't carry them. After hearing other people talk about it, I'm very curious to see if my boys would go for it. Bone-in and muscle meat that I can easily get: Chicken, pork, beef, lamb, duck, CGH, quail, and turkey. organs are hard to find. I can easily get: chicken livers, beef livers (but my crew doesn't care for it), and pork kidneys. Hearts: Chicken, pork and beef Do you have other suggestions on what to look for?
|
|
|
Post by gfountain on Mar 23, 2015 19:34:39 GMT -5
You have a lot of options listed there, even without the frog legs. It's funny that suddenly everyone is talking about frog legs, lol. My kids LOVE them. It's the only food they really fight over right now.
Your selection of organs is limited but you really only need liver and one other, so you're covered there too with the kidney.
So what you need to do is decide what you want them to eat and what fits into your budget and how often. For example, my kids' diet is made up mostly of the cheaper meats. Then I rotate the more expensive meats so they get 2 or 3 'special' meals a week. Once you decide on the proteins you want to use, and have found a source for all of them, you can use the sample menu from that long post on page 1 of this thread and basically just 'fill-in-the-blanks'. Then post it here and we'll tweak it if necessary and start working everyone toward that menu.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2015 23:01:27 GMT -5
Use the middle section of a wing, the part with 2 small bones. Cut the wing between the bones, then cut the bones lengthwise (I find it easier with shears than with a knife). This will expose the marrow. Offer the pieces to the boys. You may need to drizzle a little oil on them or 'scruff and stuff' to get them started. When you scruff and stuff, just hold their scruff and put the piece in front of them. Holding their scruff usually makes them lick or take whatever is before them. DON'T actually hold them up by their scruff. Give them several hours with the pieces like this. Don't feel sorry for them; they have to learn how to do this! If they haven't touched the pieces after 6-7 hours, cut them once more across the bone. Whether they eat the wings the first time or not, serve the same thing for the next meal, and let me know how it goes. We'll decide whether to serve wings at the third meal after we see how they do with the first two. Hi Gina! I hope you survived another Tuesday. 3 more days until Friday!!! I finally got to the butchers' shop today, and got some chicken wings. I'm too exhausted today to try anything new, but I will do this tomorrow. So, Should I just cut the middle section and freeze the rest? Cutting these bones with shears sound hard... I will find out. I'm starting to think that increasing the bone-in chunk size might be too much for them right now though. When I came home today, they hadn't eaten much of their quail. They normally like quail, but most of it was still left on the plate. I'm letting them finish it tonight and skip dinner. They were the size that they are used to, and they should not have any problems eating it. But recently they don't eat much bone-in in general. I'm a bit concerned. Are my boys avoiding their bone-in meals? Leela is still doing well with chunky soup and FDR "tea." She still does not want to eat meat by itself. I have about another day's worth chunky soup supply, so I will try a new meal for her maybe tomorrow night. Flexie is also doing great with kibble + raw soup. I gave her 2.0 oz of kibble + 4 oz. of raw soup. She ate it, although she make a "yuck" face. She ate about half of it.
|
|
|
Post by gfountain on Mar 25, 2015 9:35:28 GMT -5
The season change is very likely the cause for the boys' appetites to be diminished. However, my kids will occasionally decide to boycott certain foods. When that happens, just give them the same thing meal after meal until they decide to eat it again. So in your case, feed bone-in meats for every meal until they start eating it again. How are their poops looking? Still firm enough?
Keep pushing those girls. It's time for Leela to stop depending on soup and catch up with the boys. Are you sure those numbers are correct for Flexie's meal? That would make 6 total ounces of soup! If she ate 3 oz, that is fantastic. (Even if she did make a "yuck" face, lol)
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2015 23:02:14 GMT -5
The season change is very likely the cause for the boys' appetites to be diminished. However, my kids will occasionally decide to boycott certain foods. When that happens, just give them the same thing meal after meal until they decide to eat it again. So in your case, feed bone-in meats for every meal until they start eating it again. How are their poops looking? Still firm enough?I hope that's the case. Their poop looks fine, one of them had a loose dark poop this morning though. I think it was Mango. Mitch had a good brown poop this evening. Are you sure those numbers are correct for Flexie's meal? That would make 6 total ounces of soup!Actually, no. I meant to say 0.2 oz. not 2.0 oz. * Sorry for the confusion. Flexie did great today too. I gave her the kibble + raw mix 3 times today, each time she ate: 0.1 oz. kibble powder 0.3 oz. water 0.2 oz. raw soup= 0.6 oz. raw/kibble mix and she ate 0.3 oz. of dry kibble all day. (I finally got around to weighing this!) Leela ate the last bit of chunky soup + FDR tea this morning, and for dinner I gave her diced chicken thighs with tea and just enough soup to cover the surface. She ate about half of it, and she left the scene. I will weigh what's left in the morning. She's doing great though!!!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2015 23:14:21 GMT -5
These are Leela's chicken thigh chunks. Is this what you mean by cutting the middle part? I cut the bigger bone of the two in half. The smaller one was hard to cut even with kitchen shears. Mitch and Mango both ate some of it, but then they started stashing... They didn't finish one whole bone. *Sigh* ferrets.
|
|
|
Post by gfountain on Mar 26, 2015 14:51:09 GMT -5
Yep, that's exactly what I mean. It's difficult, I know, but once the boys get the hang of the whole bone, you won't have to do it again until the girls are ready for whole bone.
Leela's chunks look good! I hope she finished them off overnight.
Flexie is doing well. 0.6 oz 3 times a day is 1.8 oz of soup total. That's just a little under the average. BUT it's still got kibble in it. She's not eating much dry kibble though, so that's encouraging. Let's give her a little push. Give her ALL raw soup and sprinkle a teeny tiny bit of that kibble powder on the top. Let me know how she does with that. I want her to eat that raw soup by itself so we can pull her dry kibble soon.
The boys did OK for their first time with whole bone. Give them the same meal tonight and tomorrow morning and tomorrow night and... you get the idea. Give it over and over until they learn to eat it. That piece you are holding is big enough to hook to something. If you get some of the metal pear-shaped shower curtain hooks,you can push the end through that piece and attach it to the side of the cage. They won't be able to stash that unless they chew it off the hook first.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 21:14:02 GMT -5
Leela's chunks look good! I hope she finished them off overnight.She did finish the rest last night!!! I gave her the same thing this morning, and she ate almost all of it except a couple pieces left on the plate. I'm doing the same thing again tonight. Give her ALL raw soup and sprinkle a teeny tiny bit of that kibble powder on the top. Let me know how she does with that. I want her to eat that raw soup by itself so we can pull her dry kibble soon. I tried all raw soup with a little bit of kibble powder sprinkled on top, but she didn't go for it. I even put some one a spoon and encouraged her to eat it, but she ran away. I added a little more kibble soup and she ate it without a fuss. The kibble to raw ratio right now is 1:2. I still add water to thin it down, but she can eat this ratio on her own. I will leave this mix for her night time meal, and I will increase the raw ratio to 1:3 tomorrow morning. I agree, we have to get her off kibble as soon as possible! I'm ready for this bag of food to be the last bag ever exist in my house! The boys did OK for their first time with whole bone. Give them the same meal tonight and tomorrow morning and tomorrow night and... you get the idea. Give it over and over until they learn to eat it. That piece you are holding is big enough to hook to something. If you get some of the metal pear-shaped shower curtain hooks,you can push the end through that piece and attach it to the side of the cage. They won't be able to stash that unless they chew it off the hook first.My dirty little secret of the day is that I gave them cut up turkey wings for breakfast. I knew they didn't eat much last night, so I was worried that they might be hungry... I tried the chicken middle bones again tonight, and they did the same thing. They crunched on the end of the bone, ate some, and stashed it. The shower curtain idea sounds great!! I'm going to get some tomorrow. That is a brilliant idea, and I can't wait to try it. I'm so excited! The boys did eat some bone and meat, so I think they can eat a hanging piece of meat, if they feel hungry enough. gfountain, I have not said this lately, so I'm taking the time now. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING PATIENT AND KIND WITH ME! You are probably sick of hearing that I'm worried about my boys (especially about my special Mitch). I know I can be an obnoxious and whiny person sometimes and I freak out over little things when it comes to my ferrets, but you let me go on at the pace that I'm comfortable with. I really appreciate your effort to help me get through this. We have a long way to go, but I'm confident that we can out-stubborn the ferrets and switch them to a healthier diet. You are such an awesome mentor.
|
|
|
Post by gfountain on Mar 27, 2015 12:52:53 GMT -5
Yay Leela!!! She's doing great! Just keep working on increasing the size of her pieces now, a little each day.
Flexie, lol. Stubborn little diva! But you're doing exactly right. I was hoping she'd go for the raw with kibble sprinkles, but since she didn't, just keep increasing the ratio of raw/kibble soup. She'll get there eventually, and at least this doesn't stress her. I remember that she's older but I forget if she's healthy and I'm too lazy to look back. Any illnesses with her? Especially insu?
I do understand you being worried and giving them cut up bones. BUT when you do that, you're setting yourself up for trouble. They learn that all they have to do to get their way is just refuse to eat a meal. Then Mom will give them what they want. If they won't eat what you serve, let them go hungry. Being hungry isn't going to hurt them. They're young and healthy.
You are welcome! Most ferrents are nervous throughout this transition and freak out over every little thing that happens. You're doing great!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 17:51:35 GMT -5
I continued the routine today. Leela and Flexie got their usual breakfast and dinner. The boys got chicken middle bones for breakfast, and I just gave them the same thing. It looks that they ate a tiny bit off the bone, but they are still figuring out. Mitch ate some bone and meat just now, and he started stashing. How long can they go without balanced menu? I guess this is only their second day, but I'm just curious.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 18:22:23 GMT -5
I remember that she's older but I forget if she's healthy and I'm too lazy to look back. Any illnesses with her? Especially insu? She does lay flat on the floor sometimes, and she just stares in the air for a moment. I know it can be an early sign of insulinoma, but other than that she doesn't have a definitive illness. (Well, she's adrenal, but she's on an implant. Due for another one in 3 months.)
|
|
|
Post by gfountain on Mar 27, 2015 19:38:55 GMT -5
Deficiencies in the diet don't happen for quite a while, so we have some 'wiggle room'. And if necessary we can make adjustments to balance over a longer span of time than one week. The most important thing right now is to get them eating that bone.
All ferrets flat ferret sometimes. Does Flexie do it more often than the others? When she stares in the air, does it seem that she's 'spacey' or just concentrating or listening? Have you ever checked her BG? The flat ferreting and staring can be the ONLY signs of insu that you will see before a crash. I would feel better about working with her on switching if you could check her BG.
|
|