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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2015 20:27:02 GMT -5
I'm so sorry that you've been sick a lot. I was the same way at the end of 2014 to early 2015. I got sick during Thanksgiving break, Christmas break, over New year's and again later in January/early February. I went through several boxes of Kleenex and many squirts of Afrin! Over the New years, I got food poisoning while I was weak from being sick. I guess eating raw oysters while my immune system is not 100% was a poor choice on my part. Being ill really is not fun. I hope you will get better soon!
Yes, Mitch and Mango are on the same menu. I do leave food for them during the day. They don't eat right away when I feed them. Especially Mitch, he doesn't want to eat until he's starving. After I wrote the post earlier, he ate some left over quail from breakfast. Their chunks are about the size of a quarter. Mitch will eat bigger chunks if they are boneless meat, like hearts and gizzards. But he won't eat chicken wings, quail and CGH of the same size. So I cut up bone-in meals smaller than the muscle meals.
Leela is still doing well, but not advancing. I'm not using shaved chicken thighs anymore, and I'm dicing them up instead. She is doing fine with bigger chunks. But she still wants a little bit of FDR on top. I crumble up 1 chunk, and add warm water to make it very thin. She likes to lick the FDR flavored water first, then she'll eat the soup + chicken chunks. It's like she's attracted to the smell of FDR, and once she starts eating, she can eat the plain soup just fine.
I am embarrassed to admit this, but I have given up on trying to make kibble paste. I use Orijin kitten. It's really hard to mush. I tried using the smoothie maker, but it doesn't do a good job. I used pestle and mortar too. But I still couldn't crush the kibble. I just did not have patience to continue. Flexie is eating her kibble as is. I actually completely forgot about your crumble kibble suggestion. I have not tried it, but I promise I will try it this week! The main reason why I decided to go raw was because of her. She's getting older and I didn't want to risk her getting insulinoma. I can't go on this journey without her!
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Post by gfountain on Mar 16, 2015 12:52:58 GMT -5
You're right, being sick is no fun. It started the weekend before Christmas and of the 10 weeks that we have had of 2015, I have had only one and a half with nothing wrong. I am determined that nothing else is going to get me this year!
If Mitch has food available and he knows WHERE it is and HOW to eat it, then if he's still hungry that's his own fault. He's trying to play you to get what he wants. Be tough. His weight is fine, his activity is good. Don't let him get his way or he'll keep manipulating you. They're smart little things and lazy, so if you let him get away with something once, he'll try it over and over again.
It's time for the boys to start learning to eat whole bone. Use the middle section of a wing, the part with 2 small bones. Cut the wing between the bones, then cut the bones lengthwise (I find it easier with shears than with a knife). This will expose the marrow. Offer the pieces to the boys. You may need to drizzle a little oil on them or 'scruff and stuff' to get them started. When you scruff and stuff, just hold their scruff and put the piece in front of them. Holding their scruff usually makes them lick or take whatever is before them. DON'T actually hold them up by their scruff. Give them several hours with the pieces like this. Don't feel sorry for them; they have to learn how to do this! If they haven't touched the pieces after 6-7 hours, cut them once more across the bone. Whether they eat the wings the first time or not, serve the same thing for the next meal, and let me know how it goes. We'll decide whether to serve wings at the third meal after we see how they do with the first two.
Little Leela HAS advanced if she's eating bigger chunks now. Instead of crumbling her FDR on top of her meals, let's try something different. Drop a chunk of FDR in a dish of water but don't stir it in. Just let it soak for a while so the flavor and smell of the FDR absorb into the water. Then strain the pieces of FDR out and use the 'flavored water' to thin her soup. See if she'll eat it that way. What is her ratio of pieces to soup? It should be mostly chunks with very little gravy by now.
I understand your frustration with Flexie's meals, but if you don't get her off the kibble, you'll constantly have to stand guard to make sure none of the others get to it. That is a pain. And for Flexie's benefit, she needs to be off the kibble. If she is the reason you decided to do raw, then let's get her on raw! The others are doing OK; they're all eating raw and advancing slowly but steadily so let's concentrate on Flexie for a while. Stubborn ferrets are EXTREMELY stubborn, lol. It's going to take patience, determination, and above all, consistency. You have to be more stubborn than she is and you have to be consistent and determined not to let her be the boss. Unless she has insulinoma, it won't hurt her to miss a meal. So if she throws a fit or refuses to eat, you can't give in to her. Try to crush the kibble. If it works, we'll go that route and it should cause less hysterics from her. If you can't crush it, we'll just start with 'grab 'n dab' with the raw soup.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2015 19:35:36 GMT -5
Hi Gina! Happy St. Patrick's day eve!  If Mitch has food available and he knows WHERE it is and HOW to eat it, then if he's still hungry that's his own fault. He's trying to play you to get what he wants. Be tough. His weight is fine, his activity is good. Don't let him get his way or he'll keep manipulating you. They're smart little things and lazy, so if you let him get away with something once, he'll try it over and over again. I do wonder if part of the reason why they don't eat much during the day is because they sleep all day. I put 4.3 oz. of chicken wings in their cage this morning while they were asleep. I don't think they even noticed that it was there. I came home only to find maybe 3/4 was still on the plate. I let them out, and they immediately started bouncing around. After 10-15 minutes of hard-core warring, dancing and playing, they started looking for food. Between Mitch and Mango, they finished most of their breakfast, leaving only a few pieces on the plate. I don't always have time to let them out and play in the morning, but it might be a good idea to do it, so they will be ready for breakfast. I NEED TO GET UP EARLIER! LOL Just a thought. It's time for the boys to start learning to eat whole bone. Use the middle section of a wing, the part with 2 small bones. Cut the wing between the bones, then cut the bones lengthwise (I find it easier with shears than with a knife). This will expose the marrow. Offer the pieces to the boys. You may need to drizzle a little oil on them or 'scruff and stuff' to get them started. When you scruff and stuff, just hold their scruff and put the piece in front of them. Holding their scruff usually makes them lick or take whatever is before them. DON'T actually hold them up by their scruff. Give them several hours with the pieces like this. Don't feel sorry for them; they have to learn how to do this! If they haven't touched the pieces after 6-7 hours, cut them once more across the bone. Whether they eat the wings the first time or not, serve the same thing for the next meal, and let me know how it goes. We'll decide whether to serve wings at the third meal after we see how they do with the first two.
Ok, I will try this method. I usually give them bone-in in the morning, but it's ok to ignore the menu while trying this method? I also have to go buy more wings to try this, because I have pre-cut all of the meat into bite size chunks and put in a freezer bag. It might be a couple days before I can get to it. Little Leela HAS advanced if she's eating bigger chunks now. Instead of crumbling her FDR on top of her meals, let's try something different. Drop a chunk of FDR in a dish of water but don't stir it in. Just let it soak for a while so the flavor and smell of the FDR absorb into the water. Then strain the pieces of FDR out and use the 'flavored water' to thin her soup. See if she'll eat it that way. What is her ratio of pieces to soup? It should be mostly chunks with very little gravy by now.
That's easy enough! She already had her dinner today, so I will do this tomorrow morning. The soup to chunk ratio is hard to say at this point. I am trying to use up what was left from Mitch's chunky soup. It has chunky hearts, thighs and skin. She eats this just fine.  I understand your frustration with Flexie's meals, but if you don't get her off the kibble, you'll constantly have to stand guard to make sure none of the others get to it. That is a pain. And for Flexie's benefit, she needs to be off the kibble. If she is the reason you decided to do raw, then let's get her on raw! The others are doing OK; they're all eating raw and advancing slowly but steadily so let's concentrate on Flexie for a while. Stubborn ferrets are EXTREMELY stubborn, lol. It's going to take patience, determination, and above all, consistency. You have to be more stubborn than she is and you have to be consistent and determined not to let her be the boss. Unless she has insulinoma, it won't hurt her to miss a meal. So if she throws a fit or refuses to eat, you can't give in to her. Try to crush the kibble. If it works, we'll go that route and it should cause less hysterics from her. If you can't crush it, we'll just start with 'grab 'n dab' with the raw soup.I tried the hammer method today, and it worked a lot better! I put some kibble in a bag, and put it in my husband's old sock. Than I hammered it so even if the bag tears, it won't spill everywhere.  I think the brand of kibble I use is very hard and it does not let water in very easily. Soaking little broken pieces of kibble was much easier than whole kibble! I think I will make more of these "kibble crumbs" so it doesn't take long to make paste every time. Crumbs won't go bad until I pour hot water to it, right? Flexie ate this paste willingly today, so I am very encouraged. :-) She did not eat all of it, so I will put this in the fridge and give her some more before bed. I will try to stick to it this time, and see if I can sneak some smooth raw soup in it.  |
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Post by gfountain on Mar 17, 2015 8:41:21 GMT -5
If the boys aren't getting up in the morning, that could very well be one of the reasons they're not eating much. Mine tend to not eat much when they're in the cage for long periods of time. If you could schedule in even 15 minutes for them to get out and play in the mornings, they would most likely eat better during the day. I am not a morning person AT ALL, but mornings have become my favorite time of day because my Furricanes are so goofy in the mornings. I let them out to play while I get a shower and get ready for work. They take a shower with me. They steal my clothes. They wrestle all over my feet. They play with the air from the hair dryer. They help me make the bed. I only have to get up about 10 minutes earlier and they get a good hour of playtime. They're so happy in the mornings that it's worth losing that extra 10 minutes of sleep and by the time I'm ready to leave, they're ready to eat and go back to bed.
While we are working on getting their pieces bigger and eating whole bone, it is fine to ignore your planned menu. Sometimes it takes 3 or 4 (or more) meals in a row to convince them that what you are serving won't kill them. You will need to keep an eye on their poops while we're doing lots of bone meals. If their poops get hard, let me know.
Wow! Leela is eating THAT?! She's ready to move up to bigger chunks and lose the soup altogether. If the FDR flavored water works, we'll start working her up to the boys' menu.
I still think the easiest way to get Flexie switched will be with kibble soup transitioning to raw soup. How do you feel about making the kibble soup with the crushed kibble? Still too difficult? We can use raw soup sprinkled with powdered kibble, but I don't think she'll like that very much. If you can do the kibble soup consistently, I think we can get her to raw within a week or two, unless she is just super stubborn. I really don't know how long the kibble soup can sit out before it goes bad. I know when we moisten the dogs' kibble, it seems to sour within a couple of hours because the dogs won't eat it if it sits out longer than that (and one of my dogs will eat ANYTHING). You could try soaking the powdered kibble in the fridge for several hours and see if that makes any difference. Then warm it up before you serve it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2015 22:44:20 GMT -5
Letting them out in the bathroom is a great idea! Sometimes I lose them under the couch and I can't get to them... So I'm afraid to let them out unattended in the morning, because I have to put them back in the cage soon. But I can shower and put on makeup while they are playing in the bathroom/hallway. I will put up a baby-gate! I haven't been able to get to the butchers' store, so I have not tried the bigger bone-in yet. It's on my to-do list for this weekend. Leela did not like the FDR flavored water on her soup. She licked the water, ate a little bit of meat, and she walked away before finishing not even half of her meal. So I put the crumbs on top, then she ate all of it. I will keep trying without FDR first to see if she changes her mind. I have been giving Flexie kibble soup twice a day since Sunday. She actually loves it now. She doesn't fight it at all. If I put a bowl of it on the floor, she will come and starts eating it immediately. She doesn't eat much, but she seems to eat about the same amount each time (0.5 oz or less). I'm so proud of her!  I want to add some raw soup for her next meal. How much should I add? |
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Post by gfountain on Mar 19, 2015 16:32:42 GMT -5
Just to clarify, when I let mine out in the morning they have free run of the house. They almost always, however, choose to hang out with me whether I'm in the bathroom, bedroom, or closet. It's the only time of day they consistently choose me over all the other fun things to do! But confining them to a certain area would work as well as long as they are getting out and being active.
Leela, Leela... keep trying with the flavored water. Let it soak longer, heat it up so the flavor goes through, whatever. If you offer it without the FDR, then give in and give her some FDR, she's learning that all she has to do to get what she wants is wait a little while. She's not sick, just stubborn, so give her the chunky soup with some FDR flavored water and leave her with it. If she gets hungry enough, she'll eat it.
How much dry kibble is Flexie eating during the day? 1 oz of soup isn't enough nourishment for her! Weigh her kibble in the morning and then weigh it again tomorrow night and let's see exactly how much she is eating. Start adding raw soup 1/2 tsp at a time. So tonight, add 1/2 tsp of raw. If she eats that with no problem, then for her morning meal, add a whole tsp. If she eats that, then the next meal would be 1 1/2 tsp, etc. You will be decreasing the kibble soup at the same time. If at any point, she stalls and refuses to eat it, back up to the ratio she last ate and give her a couple of meals at that ratio before increasing again. If you can, post her progress every day - how much raw she had, if she protested, whatever - so we can change the game plan if necessary. Whatever you do, once you start adding raw, DO NOT go back to plain kibble soup!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2015 14:40:01 GMT -5
I don't know why I didn't think to crush the kibble in the smoothie blender BEFORE adding water. This worked so much better I made enough kibble powder to last at least a week. All I need to do is pour some hot water. I don't even need to soak it. This has made my life so much easier, and it's so exciting!  This is what my kibble powder looks like. Completely smooth! Just add water and serve (+ some raw soupie too).  Flexie started eating partial raw kibble soup yesterday! I didn't weigh it, but she ate some of it with no fight. She didn't seem to notice the difference. The mixture was 1/3 soup and 2/3 kibble. She ate this mixture twice, and I left kibble out for her to eat during the day and at night, while I was not able to care for her. For breakfast this morning, she ate the same thing as last night. I actually weighed her lunch, it was 0.2 oz kibble powder + 0.4 oz. water + 1/2 teaspoon raw soup. She ate it no problem. I will increase the raw amount by 1/2 teaspoon for dinner. When I record the amount she eats, should I just write down the dry kibble weight? By the time I added water, the food weighed 0.6 oz. but it was only 0.2 oz actual food. What is the best way to do this? |
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Post by gfountain on Mar 21, 2015 15:42:48 GMT -5
Yay for Flexie! The switch has begun!! I'm glad crushing the kibble first has made a difference. Since she didn't protest the first 'dose' of raw, I'm hopeful that this will go smoothly for you. Increase the raw/decrease the kibble as quickly as she will allow. I know I said 1/2 tsp at a time, but I really thought she would fight that first raw addition. Since she didn't, you may be able to increase faster. You said she ate it that first day with 1/3 soup, so just go from there. Try half and half and see how she does. Have you measured her dry kibble intake yet? You really need to do that so we know how much she is eating in a 24 hour period. She'll need to be eating close to that amount of raw before you remove the kibble completely. But she's on her way to a healthier diet! WooHoo! Good for both of you!
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Post by gfountain on Mar 21, 2015 15:44:07 GMT -5
Oh, best way to record her amounts is just whatever is easiest for you. Hopefully, she'll be off the kibble so fast it really won't matter how you record it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2015 4:14:58 GMT -5
I'm very excited that Flexie is taking this very well. She has gotten used to the texture of soup consistency, and that's a great start! She doesn't protest the raw addition at all. So I will keep increasing the raw ratio. For dinner last night, she ate: 0.2 oz. kibble powder 0.6 oz. water 1 teaspoon raw soup (leaving just a spoonful uneaten) For breakfast this morning, I increased the raw amount by 1/2 tsp. she ate: 0.2 oz. kibble powder 0.6 oz. water 1-1/2 teaspoon raw soup (leaving just a spoonful uneaten) I can feed her every 4 hours on weekend, but I can't do the same during the week. To determine how much she regularly eats, I will give her 1 oz. of dry kibble after her last partial raw meal tonight. I will weight it tomorrow morning and see how much she ate. Do you think that would work? I can do the same after her breakfast, give her 1 oz. again and weight it when I get home from work. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2015 4:52:50 GMT -5
And another victory this morning! Ms. Leela ate her chunky soup with only FDR flavored water! (Or I like to call it the FDR tea.  ) She licked the "tea" first, and circled around the plate a few times. She went back and forth and looked up at me. That's usually when I give in and give her the crumbled FDR chunk. But this time, I locked up that worried mama in me in the FN cage and just watched Leela throw a fit. Then, she started eating the chunky soup! At that point, the liquid part of the soup was all licked away. She picked up bits of hearts, thigh, and skin noodles and ate them! I am very proud of her. She finished all 1 oz. I gave her. Maybe I should give a little bit more, so she will leave a few bites on the plate? |
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Post by gfountain on Mar 22, 2015 11:06:16 GMT -5
I am so proud of you! Not giving in to those pitiful eyes is very hard! But you see how they play you now, right, lol? They are so manipulative!
For Flexie, make sure you start decreasing the amount of kibble soup while increasing the amount of raw. To record her dry kibble amount, you are correct. Weigh what you leave with her, then weigh it again when you pick it up. I'll want you to do that a few times throughout this process. The raw food will fill her up better so her kibble consumption should decrease as she progresses on the raw soup. And once she's eating a sufficient amount of all raw soup, you can get rid of the dry kibble completely and you will have an all raw business!
Leela does NOT need the FDR any more. Continue making FDR tea for her, but decrease the amount you give her at each meal. Do you still have more of that chunky soup to use up or are you making hers fresh now? It's time to start increasing the size of her pieces, so if you still have the soup, just start adding a few bigger pieces into it. She should have enough at each meal that there is some left over for snacking on before the next meal.
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Post by gfountain on Mar 22, 2015 11:21:38 GMT -5
How are the boys doing?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2015 12:13:03 GMT -5
Ok, I will be sure to decrease the amount of kibble paste for her second lunch. For her first lunch today, she ate the same thing except I used 2 teaspoon of raw soup. She ate about 1/3 of it, and she wasn't sure anymore. So I put her on my lap, and hand-fed her. She started eating again, and I lowered the spoon and set it on the plate. She eventually finished everything I gave her.
I didn't leave dry kibble out today, since all four were out. I usually let them out all day on weekends. But since I'm around, I can tell when Flexie is hungry and looking for food. I'll give her another meal when she wakes up from her nap and starts looking for food again. I will weigh the kibble tonight.
The boys are doing well also. The 4 oz. of chicken gizzards that I gave them last night vanished over night, but it appears that they stashed a lot of it... My husband had found the stash and he had already thrown it away when I woke up this morning. Maybe they didn't like that I cut the chunks a little bit bigger this time. I cut each lobe in half. That's about twice as big as they are used to. Since I don't know how much they ate, it's hard to say, but maybe I increased the size too abruptly.
Judging from the way they snarfed their quail breakfast, they didn't eat much of gizzards last night.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2015 12:24:51 GMT -5
Do you still have more of that chunky soup to use up or are you making hers fresh now? It's time to start increasing the size of her pieces, so if you still have the soup, just start adding a few bigger pieces into it. She should have enough at each meal that there is some left over for snacking on before the next meal. I've used up most of Mitch's soup. I think I have about 3-4 days supply now. I was thinking of making some more later today. Maybe some more chunky soup? How about: 4 oz. chicken thigh, pureed 4 oz. chicken thigh, bigger chunks than last time 1 oz. chicken hearts, quartered instead of puree 0.5 oz. chicken liver, pureed 0.5 oz. pork kidney, pureed 1/2 tsp bone-meal powder Yay or nay? |
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I want to add some raw soup for her next meal. How much should I add?
