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Post by RedSky on Apr 3, 2015 12:41:37 GMT -5
Sorry, missed this post somehow. Give me a day to work on the new menu. Need to make sure my calculations are correct. They are eating pretty well, I gave them a whole chicken wing (no smashing) and they ate almost all of it, just left a bit of the thicker bone. Next time I'll try hit it down the middle to break that bone open. Duck wings are still a no go. Not even touched them this week. Might just give up on them! We all have something we don't like. It might be the wings are off a little or something.
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Post by RedSky on Apr 3, 2015 17:52:48 GMT -5
So going of the basic menu in percentages is roughly (doing high bone in for my guys since they still don't always eat all the bone) 60% bone in 20% muscle meat (not including heart here) 10% heart 5% liver 5% other organs (mainly using kidney, but also some pancreas)
Whole prey I'm feeding mice (1 meal) and a quail (last 2 meals) I'm also thinking of doing 1 meal each week of balanced soupies, so they are used to it and accept it if they get ill (again)... Mainly thinking about Korra here as she wasn't so keen on it the last time I gave them a bit to share, maybe she wasn't hungry. Anyway
I don't want to knock the balance by feeding too much muscle meat with treats so as I said I was thinking of cutting out the muscle meat meals (or maybe do 1 with an egg as well each week? I'll add that into the menu for now).
Anyway my menu (if you agree I will start it on Monday) Monday am: Chicken wing (BI) pm: 1/2 liver, 1/2 other organs (O)
Tuesday am: Rabbit (BI) pm: Mice and chicks (W)
Wednesday am: Chicken wing (BI) pm: Heart (H)
Thursday am: Block - lamb or beef (BI) pm: Quail (W)
Friday am: Quail left overs (W) pm: Chicken wing
Saturday am: Rabbit (BI) pm: lamb & egg - 1 quail egg each or 1 chicken egg to share (M)
Sunday am: Pheasant (BI) pm: Balance soup (W?)
At the moment for meals portion sizes vary (is that normal?) Bone in meals are typically 3oz (usually some left) Heart meals are 4.5oz approx (sometimes they might have left a fatty bit, but normally everything is gone) Organs are 4oz (normally all gone) Whole prey meals can vary, I put in 3 mice and 3 chicks. Not sure how much that actually weighs but there is never any sign of them in the morning. I weighed a few of the quail when I bought them and they vary from 6.8oz to 8.3oz (I grabbed a couple of the smaller and larger ones). Often most of it, if not all is gone in the morning, so they usually have extra treats and their pm meal a bit earlier.
Between the 3 of them they also eat about 0.5 to 1oz of minced meat (pork, beef or lamb) each day given as treats, or they have dehydrated duck breast cat treats (100% duck breast).
Feeding times are usually about 8am and 8pm, although not always. If there's still plenty of food or none left I will feed later or sooner.
Should I just trust they are all getting their fair share from the whole prey? Do you think I should add in more organs or heart just in case? I'm worried some won't be getting enough, while others will be having too much. Are there any signs I should be watching them for, such as lack of taurine causes... or too much vitamin A causes...
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Post by RedSky on Apr 3, 2015 19:18:28 GMT -5
I've managed to confuse myself. I think it's because I'm trying to work in grams and ounces. 1oz is roughly 30g, the mice I'm feeding are approx 30g. The chicks are approximately 40g. For one meal they are eating (completely gone by morning) 3 mice and 3 chicks between the 3 of them. So that's about 210g or 7.4oz. Same with the quail, it's pretty much all gone by morning. How can they eat over 7oz in less than 12 hours, but not manage to eat a 3oz chicken wing in that time? Are they being greedy because they really like the whole prey? Am I over feeding the whole prey meals. I'm sure if I put more in they would eat that too! Trying to work out an order from a new site I have stumbled across that sells whole prey and frankenprey. They also do a range of balanced grinds, I might get a few to try. Would be handy to have in the freezer just incase I have to go away for any reason. The site is www.kiezebrink.co.uk I'm going to ask on the forum if anyone has used it before. Wanting to know meat quality and such.
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Post by RedSky on Apr 7, 2015 6:50:08 GMT -5
Vet trip today, Mako still isn't walking properly and mouths when we touch his back end. At first we just thought he was playing, but he only does it when we touch his lower back never when he touch his head/neck/shoulders. I think he's in pain. Bolin has a stitch sticking out. Before it looked just like a scab so I wasn't worried, but the scab has come off and it's very clearly a purple stitch. Korra has a little lump next to her anus, might be an impacted scent gland. Hope it's not infected.
Also irrelevant but taking a hamster too, she's either got a nasty scab or a growth on her shoulder/neck area. Wish me luck! Hoping they won't be frantic trying to get out of their carrier to get to my poor hamster. Don't worry she will be safe in the front with me, in a small carrier in a larger carrier (stops it wobbling around in the car).
Hope you are okay, haven't heard from you for a few days. Hoping you are just busy with work and nothing is wrong.
Edit: They ate all their 3oz of rabbit this morning, so I've given their pm meal early. I weighed the mice and chicks, the meal is 6.4oz. I know it will be all gone by morning. I will their breakfast in before I go to bed, it will still be a bit frozen but they don't seem to mind.
Also while I'm here, update about the vets Bolin's stitch came straight out. He was such a good boy, acted like he didn't even notice. The salmon oil probably helped! hehe and I'm to try distract her so she doesn't lick it straight off. I'm sure again salmon oil will come to the rescue. And Mako, poor Mako. He has to go back on Thursday. He's going to be anaesthetised and have an x-ray and blood tests. I've asked if he's okay can they microchip him while he's out. Wish I had Bolin done when they operated but I was so worried I forgot, since he was so poorly. Mako seems pretty fine in himself, just walking funny and seems to be a bit sore. Strangely, Korra and Zippy (my hamster) are both in the same boat. Could just be a spot, so we have some cream to try. If there is no improvement in 2 weeks, it bleeds or gets bigger they are to go back. Vet said could also try some steroids or antibiotics, but this is the safest treatment. If nothing works she will biopsy, although with Zippy I think I will refuse that option. She's getting on quite a bit and has been ill up and down for over 18 months, I don't think she would survive and the vet agrees at her age and history it's a very big risk. Korra of course will have it if everything else has been tried.
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Post by acodlin on Apr 8, 2015 10:14:02 GMT -5
Your rabbit, pheasant and quail are all whole prey with organs intact?
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Post by acodlin on Apr 8, 2015 10:21:32 GMT -5
I posted on the other thread, but my first thought on Korra would be an infected anal gland. I'm so glad that Bolin is still doing well. My vet always uses internal stitches that dissolve and then glues the incision together. Seems to work pretty well. As for Mako, It's so hard to say until you have some test results what is going on. I hope whatever it is, isn't serious I'm sorry about your hamster. I hope it is just a scab and not cancer. It's hard when our little furry kids are sick. My Jinx, an albino boy I rescued a couple of years ago is going downhill, he has lymphoma It's been a rough few days.. I had to have his teeth cleaned because he has such bad dental disease (bad genetics) and it was very nerve wracking, then we had an ultrasound done and found that his liver, spleen and kidneys probably have cancer in them too. I've seen that website you found before, I dont know anyone who uses it personally.. but if its legit, it seems like a good place to get some grinds from! Right now I'd feed them however much they will eat. As long as they are not overweight, I give my kids as much as they will eat. I'm going to have Heather take a quick peek at the menu you posted and see what input she gives me. I do a lot of grinds and frankenprey, not very much whole prey at my house. So I want to make sure I'm giving you the right facts.
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Post by RedSky on Apr 8, 2015 11:01:58 GMT -5
Hey, glad you're back. Thanks for all the input. I posted on the other thread about how this little lump is more on the surface than something swelling underneath. The vet said a few cancer names but basically how they are all cancers that grow on the surface. Hopefully if it is cancer it will be treatable by removing the lump. As it is the vet wants to give it a bit more time, it's growing very slowly so hopefully nothing too sinister.
The stitches are supposed to dissolve, it was just a knot that worked it's way to the surface and the body sort of kicked it out. I had two operations a while ago and with both had the same sort of thing, one stitch that my body kicked out. But one of mine got infected so really hurt. I made a big fuss about both and had to have like a freeze spray put on so the poor doctor could remove them. I am an adult honest... haha
The rabbit is just bone in, it's from the butcher and comes skinned, gutted, head and feet removed for people to eat. It did have some kidney and liver left in but I removed them and put them in separately as a organ meal.
Poor you and poor Jinx, it's horrible when there isn't anything you can do. Please give him a big hug for me, if he likes them and one for you too.
I've found a few threads on here that mentioned it and a few people have recommended it on the facebook group. I'm still emptying out the freezer, it will take a while for the ferrets to get through the food that would have lasted a month for my dog. And still trying to shift something they won't really be able to eat, like trotters and racks of lamb ribs. I'm tempted to just toss them in and see if they do anything with them as I can't find anyone who wants them. The tripe isn't going to be fed in the house though, if at all. I hate that stuff.
I'm just worried that they aren't eating enough with the frankenprey. I can't really afford to feed whole prey all the time, and their weight is stable enough. Guess I'm just worrying over nothing, and they eat their whole prey like I eat chocolate and cakes. I might have to get my OH to film how Bolin runs when he smells whole prey, he wags his tail sometimes too. But they all eat as soon as I put it in, with anything else they just eat when they are hungry.
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Post by acodlin on Apr 8, 2015 11:18:19 GMT -5
Heather and I have been talking and we both agree it would be a good idea to feed another meal of heart. With the liver if you want to give another small meal its okay, go by their stools.. if they are dark and tarry they may be getting too much. The kidneys are like the heart, giving more wont hurt if you wish. It just may change the consistency of the stool. Do your kids like pancreas? That is another good secreting organ that is usually fairly well accepted.
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Post by RedSky on Apr 8, 2015 11:30:20 GMT -5
Brilliant, should I swap out a BI meal or their muscle meal? Or I could just add a little bit with their whole prey meals? Since they always eat them all anyway, so I could feed an extra 1oz with each meal? That would be an extra 3 oz a week. They get either kidney or pancreas with their liver, sometimes a bit of both. I could add in some more pancreas or kidney without a problem. They aren't massively keen on pancreas and it's in massive blocks so more awkward to chop up than the kidney I get from the supermarket.
I'll keep an eye on stools, they are darker and looser after heart and organ meals but I wouldn't say black and tarry.
I'm also planning on (after I use up all the stuff I've already portioned out) feeding the heart and organs together as two meals, rather than one meal of organs each week. I figured they would do better having it more spread out. Should I increase the meal sizes for the meals I know they will eat all of, so I could feed 5-6oz heart and same with the organ meals? Or should I leave them as they are? It's hard because I now realised they can eat double what I'm feeding but choose not to when it's bone in or muscle meat (other than heart).
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Post by acodlin on Apr 8, 2015 12:11:52 GMT -5
I would feed extra with the whole prey meal.
As for feeding more or less, again my motto is if they are hungry and will eat it, I let them have it.. but keep in mind that if they start ignoring the meals they need to eat (bone in or whatever) then you have to cut back on the stuff they like so they will be hungry enough to eat the other. It's a matter of balance.. watch their stools, if they eat more muscle meat but their stools are still firm and look good, it may be okay. Some eat a little less bone, some eat a little more.
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Post by RedSky on Apr 9, 2015 2:20:29 GMT -5
Thanks, I'm sure they will like the extra heart.
Mako's vet trip today, I'll let you know the outcome.
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Post by acodlin on Apr 9, 2015 22:17:13 GMT -5
Healing thoughts!!
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Post by RedSky on Apr 10, 2015 16:16:24 GMT -5
I've updated the other thread, at the moment we aren't sure what it is but blood tests look normal, x-rays are getting sent for a second opinion. I'm downloading a claim form, so glad I took out the insurance, just hope they pay out for it. If not we will manage but it's not an idea time.
The vet nurse and I were laughing at our bad luck with pets, we are at the vets at least weekly for the past few years.
Quail wasn't a massive hit last night, it was still partially frozen when I put it in but there was still most of it there this morning. I've left it in all day and they have picked at it still.
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Post by RedSky on Apr 11, 2015 16:05:48 GMT -5
Just to be a pain I swapped the menu around again! Sorry.
Monday am: Chicken (BI) pm: 3oz heart, 1.5oz organs (H+O)
Tuesday am: Rabbit (BI) pm: Quail (W)
Wednesday am: 2oz heart, 1oz organ (H+O) (and leftover quail) pm: Block (BI)
Thursday am: Duck (BI) pm: Lamb (M)
Friday am: Rabbit (BI) pm: Mice and chicks (W)
Saturday am: Chicken (BI) pm: 3oz heart, 1.5oz organ
Sunday am: Pheasant (BI) pm: Balance soup (W)
Organ meals will be half liver, half kidney or pancreas. So they will have 2oz liver between the three of them, to top up what they get from the whole meals, this is the same amount as before, just spread out over the week.
I've not put which part (eg wing, neck) as I will swap around depending on what I have. Still no luck with the duck wings, so I'll feed duck neck for a while and try again later. Chicken wings I just give a bash to to break the big bone a bit, and usually very little is left. I'm still getting chicken carcesses from the butchers, sometimes they eat it all, other times pick at it.
The rabbit and pheasant I have is sort of like they sell 'whole' chicken in the supermarket. I portion it out, so some meals are more bone, others are slightly less. They prefer the less bone meals. Some bones I still have to break up, others they manage with.
I'm still using beef, lamb or pork mince or dehydrated duck for treats during the day, along with bits of salmon oil.
I'm not sure what's next?
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Post by Heather on Apr 13, 2015 16:03:00 GMT -5
What's block? ciao
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