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Post by RedSky on Feb 6, 2015 11:46:46 GMT -5
I can't find anywhere to get quail from, otherwise I would give it a go, I will continue looking. Rats are even more expensive than mice, would all three be able to share a large rat? Although that cost wise I could buy a small chicken from the supermarket for less. Are the chicks okay to count as a bone in meal? Or should they just have one to share as a snack and still have their normal meals? I checked on them an hour or so after I put the chicks in and someone (I think Mako) has removed and eaten the heads... The rest of the 2 remaining chicks hadn't been touched at that point. They are due for their afternoon playtime so I'm going to take out what ever remains are there so they can't stash them in the room. My OH will flip if he finds half a rotting chick stashed under the bed.
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Post by RedSky on Feb 8, 2015 6:36:35 GMT -5
There were no remains and they have pretty much not eaten anything else since. They have had pork (I think) grind and the first bowl full looked like it hadn't been touched at all, so I tried them with it again handfeeding Mako and Bolin a little and they eat what I offered so I left in the fresh bowl with added water last night and looks untouched again this morning, just dried out a little. There was still plenty of block left in the fridge so I don't have anything else defrosted at the moment so tried hand feeding Mako and Bolin again and they will lick it but really aren't interested. Korra is so so hyper and bitey this morning and yesterday that I trying to offer anything isn't working, she just bites the hand that feeds her. If I offer it on a spoon she ignores the spoon and jumps at my hand.
So I've got three chicks out defrosting and I'll try them with some duck necks finely chopped tonight.
The remaining grinds are all loose in the freezer so I'm not sure which is which but they have had all of them before and eaten at least some of it. Not sure what is going on with them but I'm worried they have hardly eaten for over 24 hours, especially Korra who I don't think has eaten at all. I'll let you know how they do with the chicks.
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Post by RedSky on Feb 8, 2015 8:19:44 GMT -5
I put three chicks in and they were definalty hungry. Even Korra started eating pretty much straight away. Heads first, then Bolin went for the yolk sac, that boy knows what he's doing. Mako prefers the less fluffy bits so it was the legs then when he got into the chick Bolin must have smelt the yolk and stole the chick off Mako. I showed Mako where Bolin had left him. Korra had finished the head and came and took the one I had just shown Mako so Mako didn't have one again so I got the almost whole one Korra had stashed and gave it to Mako just in time for Bolin and Korra to start fighting over one and they scared him, so now he's not eating but he's had about 1/2 of a chick. Someone has 'sprayed' or 'poofed' not sure what to call it but I needed out of the room pretty fast. I hate it when they do that, stinks!
I think next time I will feed them whole prey separately, that way they all get their fair share. I don't want Bolin eating 3 yolks in one go...
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Post by RedSky on Feb 10, 2015 15:20:14 GMT -5
It's been minced turkey with added bone meal for the last 3 meals. I made it into a soup to try encourage Mako to eat more. He's look much skinnier, I'm going to weigh him tomorrow, I tried today but he wouldn't even sit still for salmon oil so I couldn't get a reading. I've separated Korra from the boys, I've explained a little more in my thread about Korra biting but basically after the vet visit today Mako is on painkillers (Metacam for cats) and has some bruising and tenderness around his neck, shoulders and even his stomach and back. It seems that Korra is the most likely cause.
I chucked in some duck necks for tea, Korra stashed hers straight away while Mako and Bolin were still asleep in their half of the cage. Thank goodness the cage splits so easily.
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Post by acodlin on Feb 12, 2015 0:20:34 GMT -5
I apologize for being absent.. mandatory over time where I work and I had to put a very special ferret to sleep. It's been extremely rough..
Chick's are not a bone in meal. Their bones are not developed enough to have any substantial calcium or nutrients.
a medium rat may be enough for 1 meal for your kiddos. A small chicken or Cornish game hen would be plenty. As for refusing to eat, they feel your stress.. their friend is beating up on them and you lost your pup so they can sense that. Sometimes they don't eat as well when they feel stressed. If they fast for 24 hours I wouldn't worry..they should be good and hungry come the next morning. They have to eat a variety so you could try mixing the pork block with some chicken or turkey and see if that gets them to eat it.
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Post by RedSky on Feb 12, 2015 5:50:54 GMT -5
I am so sorry for your loss, it's always a horrible place to be. If you need some time don't worry about us, we are getting there and no need to appologise.
After reading your post I had a look into the calcium value of chicks just so I know what I'm dealing with (I do better with numbers to help me think). Obviously this is in relation to birds of prey, but looking at this to counteract the lack of calcium but presence of phosphorus I would apparently have to feed something like Nutrobal (something I have used with reptiles before). Rather than go down the route of trying to work it all out so I can feed the chicks more often I've decided it might be easier to feed them every other week as an egg supplement. As I see it, it shouldn't affect their diet too much and they LOVE them and it's got to be helpful for keeping teeth clean.
I've separated them all and given them a mouse each for breakfast. I'm worried that Bolin is stealing the 'best bits'. In terms of feeding one large rat or quail or similar to them all how do I make sure that one ferret doesn't eat say all the organs and heart and the other two just end up with muscle and bones, because that is what Bolin is trying to do. He must be able to smell when they get into the right area because he comes and steals it, quickly eats it all and then goes onto the next one. If I feed whole prey a few times a week surely Bolin will end up with a build up and the others will be short???
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Post by RedSky on Feb 12, 2015 7:07:53 GMT -5
Korra is desperate to bring her mouse out of the cage but I'm insisting that it stays where it is. I intentionally put her in the top level of the critter nation (with the access ladder closed) and the boys at the bottom so I would have to handle her to get her in and out. At playtime I let all the ferrets out and put the mice in the top half of the cage so the ferrets couldn't bring them out. Korra has climbed up the cage three times, I've lifted her in about 5 and each time she grabs a mouse and wants back out. So lots of handling but she's get frustrated and so am I. How do I encourage her to stash it in the cage rather than wanting to bring it out. She's not like this with any other food.
Mako also wanted back in with the mice, so I put him in the top (not at the same time as Korra though), so, so far Korra hasn't eaten any of it, just stashing it. Mako has eaten the head, tail and back legs off of his mouse and Korra's mouse and Bolin has eaten the head of his mouse. Mako is in the bottom half of the cage with his and Bolin's mice while Korra is cage raging in the top half with her mouse. Bolin is fast asleep under the bed (probably a good thing Korra isn't out as she would be going mental at him!).
I think I need to create a den in the cage to encourage them to eat in there. Would a cardboard box do?
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Post by acodlin on Feb 12, 2015 7:34:55 GMT -5
A feeding den is a good idea. Cardboard boxes work just fine. I sometimes feed in the bathtub too. Sounds weird but they can't get out and stash their food. Have you tried cutting the mouse open a little? Sometimes opening the abdomen will get them to dig in.
It's really hard to stop them from stashing. Sounds like your little girl has her spots and that's where she wants to go. I've never been successful in stopping that. It's just easier to know the spots and clean them out before it starts to reek. As far as the chick's, once a week or every other week is good. As far as worrying about nutrients.. your still feeding whole grinds? If so it has organs in it and it would be impossible while sharing a rat for everyone to get a bite of type organs. So no one should become deficient. How often would you plan to feed a rat? Once or twice a week? Then I wouldn't worry.
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Post by RedSky on Feb 12, 2015 9:05:11 GMT -5
We unfortunately don't have a bathtub, but I could try closing the screen door on the shower. Bolin especially likes having a nap in there. Mako and Bolin happily rip the mice apart, it's just Korra who wants to keep it with her toys. There is a gap behind the bidet that she likes to go into, (I checked it using the camera on my phone and it looks safe enough) and I'm worried about her stashing it there or the mouse 'leaking' on the carpet. All the rooms where they are allowed other than the bathroom are carpet. Plus it was one rule my OH wanted, all meat is to stay in the cage. She tore into the chicks so I was hoping for the same responce. She ate a bit of the mouse that Mako had already tore open and left (I picked it up and showered it her hoping she would realise it was food), I think she ate a kidney (very small but right shape and colour) and maybe some meat or liver... She pulled a right face! I think she just wanted the mouse to stash it. We moved in last year and haven't been able to afford to have the bathroom replaced yet but we are hoping some time this year to have the bidet and shower removed and have a nice big bath put in. I could live in a bath! haha
It's pork mince with added bone meal for tea (not the balanced block, just normal mince). I'm using a lot of mince at the moment as it's the easiest way for Mako to take his meds and since he likes it I'm hoping he will eat plenty and put this weight back on.
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Post by acodlin on Feb 12, 2015 11:06:48 GMT -5
It often just takes time and patience when trying to introduce whole prey to a ferret who isn't use to it. I wouldn't give up on her. Just keep offering it. You could try with a feeding den to punch a hole in it to anchor a hook so you can attach the mice/rats/chunks to the hook (I use a closed shower hook so they can't pull it off) and that's good stimulation. They have to rip and tear at it and maybe if she's trying to rip it off she will get a taste and want to eat it instead. You could also use the shower hooks to hook the food to the side of the cage. It's just noisy when they start shaking it.
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Post by RedSky on Feb 12, 2015 11:32:47 GMT -5
That's a great idea, I will do that. Then hopefully we won't have to 'argue' about keeping food in the cage. It will also mean they can hopefully have access to food during play times. At the moment I take all the food and bowls out of the cage (except the water) and they go without. They are great at coming and pestering when they get hungry and I just put them back in with food for a bit then once they are all ready I let them out and remove the food again. My OH wouldn't be happy if he found meat stuck to the carpet but if he finds a headless mouse somewhere he might actually kill me! (joking of course).
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Post by acodlin on Feb 13, 2015 9:29:25 GMT -5
I use hooks almost anytime I feed in the cage, unless its a grind or a soup. Now when the pieces get smaller they can sometimes rip them off.. but usually they are so intent on eating that they finish the piece and don't stash it.
I've found more than my fair share of stinky stash lol.. I found a chicken heart in my couch not too long ago =/ talk about stinky. It's just the price you pay to have a healthy raw fed ferret LoL.
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Post by RedSky on Feb 13, 2015 19:47:59 GMT -5
Bear with me here, I'm going to try a plan for the next week or so based on what I have in the freezer and going off this:
But then taking into account that I will also be feeding 7 meals (out of 14) balanced commercial grind. It is so much cheaper than meat from supermarkets and means their bone intake won't just be chicken when I can't get access to other game. I will still be feeding the full amount of heart since I'm not 100% that all the blocks contain heart and as far as I'm aware I can't over do it.
So I need to feed 4 meals of bone in 2 meals of muscle meat (keeping 1.5 of which heart) 3/4 meal of liver and another organ This leaves me with 1/4 meal missing, so on this day I could feed egg or a chick??? Although that might make for mess potty times. I can play with that later.
I have been feeding heart and organs throughout the week so as to avoid any nasty toileting but I'm worried that they aren't all getting their fair share. So I'm going to feed 'properly' instead.
Saturday AM: Chicken carcass (I'm going to toss it in as is and see if they eat it, if not I'll pull it back out after an hour and chop up fine). PM: Beef block
Sunday AM: Duck necks (doing well if they are chopped into mush) PM: Lamb block
Monday AM: Chicken block PM: Heart (see over night in the cage so no nasty accidents on my carpets!)
Tuesday AM: Duck wings (we are still struggling with these, I'm not sure if they just don't like them for some reason or what but even chopped up they aren't a big hit but I have LOADS left). PM: Mouse (still a balanced meal right? So instead of the block)
Wednesday AM: Rabbit block PM: 1/2 Liver/ 1/4 kidney/ 1/4 pancreas and a chick each (do you think this will be too much food? I could feed the organs first and put the chicks in as I go to bed)
Thursday AM: Chicken block PM: chicken carcass
Friday AM: Lamb block PM: 1/2 heart/ 1/2 pork chops (might be a bone in but I doubt they will/can eat it).
I'm tempted to give a bit of extra meat with the chicken carcesses as they are bone heavy, I'll take a picture of it in the morning to show you. They also have salmon oil for nail trimming and as a treat throughout the week and I always have some mince meat (just muscle meat) ready as treats for training. They probably get about 1/2 oz at the most each a day. Maybe that is enough to offset the meat lost from the chicken carcesses?
I really need to get them on bigger bits of bone, but they just don't eat it. I'm not too bothered about Korra, I never see her eat but she isn't losing weight. Mako and Bolin are though, and with Bolin it's hard to tell because he is a little too chubby but I don't know what is just spleen and what is fat. Mako is my main concern. He needs to regain the weight he's lost. I'm feeding him extra mince meat mixed with bone meal powder on the bone in days just so I know he's eaten. He eats fresh food from the bowl but then I don't see him eat again until I replace it. Neither does Bolin. Should I try feeding maybe 3 or 4 meals a day so the food is fresher? But use the same stuff, just feed less of it at every meal?
I'm going to keep better track of how much they are actually eating and weigh them daily. I also desperately need to upload some new pictures. But it's nearly 1am here and I should be getting some sleep so it will have to wait until tomorrow.
Thanks
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Post by RedSky on Feb 17, 2015 9:58:13 GMT -5
Their weights (from 15th) are Korra 1lb 7oz, Bolin 3lb 1oz and Mako 2oz 10lb. All three have been back together and Mako looks skinny again. I'm going to weigh him again this afternoon and see if it's just my imagination. I think he's putting on muscle but has developed a 'waist', he obviously goes in just before his rear legs where as Korra is sort of smooth (she could be a rolling pin if she didn't have legs) and Bolin come out (but we are blaming that on an enlarged spleen). They are getting much better at pulling themselves in and out of boxes and on to things. I'm very impressed with them. Korra's jumps are getting much better too.
They had the last duck necks that I had, but the local pet shop sells them although they are pretty expensive compared to the usual place I order them from. I want them to eat these bloody wings, I have a massive bag full of them. I don't understand why they likes the necks so much but wont eat the wings. I'm about to go to the supermarket so I will grab some chicken wings while I am there, to see if they prefer those, or maybe chop up one of each in future and mix together.
They are eating about 6oz a day between the three of them, does this sound okay? Seems very little to me. I'm always confused as to whether the 1-2oz for a female and 2-4oz for a male is per meal or per day. If it is per day then I would say we are doing fine, but if per meal then how do I get them to eat more. I'm looking forwards to having nice sleek ferrets for the summer, but don't want them skinny like Mako looks. I'm about to nip out but I will try upload a photo of each of them when I get back.
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Post by acodlin on Feb 17, 2015 18:04:30 GMT -5
The 1-2oz is per day for the female ferrets. Sometimes they will eat more, sometimes less. As long as they are not losing weight it's okay.
With raw fed ferrets they should only need to eat twice a day. But if Mako needs the extra calories you can try to feed him fattier foods more often (like chicken thighs, duck thighs, beef if he will eat it).
Your menu looks pretty good. I agree feeding the extra heart won't hurt. You can tell if your feeding too much bone by how dry or firm their stools are. If they seem to be straining to poo or if it seems hard, you might have to back off a bit. I do think adding the chick to the meal of organs might be a bit much. You want to make sure they eat all of the organs and not just the chick.. but you can see how they do. If they eat their organs and still seem hungry, by all means give them more food. If they are cleaning their plate everytime you feed them, i'd increase how much food you give them by a little bit. As far as bone.. it's just that hurdle we have to work on. Cutting the wings up into smaller pieces or smashing them helps. It just takes time and patience. You could always try to fast them for a meal and then see if they are more willing to eat the wings for the next meal.
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