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Post by katt on Apr 19, 2011 13:23:07 GMT -5
OK checking in... I vacuumed out all the wood shavings from their cage and put old towels in there instead which I can wash when they get dirty. My fuzzbutts are about 90% litterbox trained when in their cage so I think we'll be fine without the wood Fenton and Fiona both came back to the chicken wings later to gnaw on them some more, and Fenton woke up this morning and went to town on one of them, stripping off all remaining skin and meat so only most of the wing bones are left (with parts missing they ate off the ends). The other chicken wing is about half eaten. Had to rush off to work so after morning playtime I left the remaining chicken wing with them and added about a chicken-wing-sized chunk of turkey back that I picked up last night. Surprisingly they both started eating at it right away with less hesitation than the chicken wings, maybe it smells and tastes enough like chicken that they knew it was food already? Hope that's enough meat to get them through the day until dinner time! Should I get some liver and heart on my way home from work or something? Yes, get some heart and liver. Also look for a different meat so we can start adding variety in from the get-go. So far so good with turkey + chicken. They are very similar to each other though, so why don't you look for some pork chops or beef? I know that Koda loved beef cubes - like the kind you get for making stew. (He's allergic to beef though and can't have it anymore ), and ground meat is always a yummy treat too. Not very good for their teeth to eat all of the time, but they sure like it! They will get better at the bones as they go. Right now they need to build up the jaw strength so the wing tips will be the first parts to go as they are softer and easier to chew. Eventually they will gobble the whole wing with no problem whatsoever. As for the turkey, they should gobble up almost any meat you put in front of them now. The biggest thing is getting past the texture and taste. Now that they know meat = food they will never look back! There will inevitably be some meats that they need a little coaxing to eat, but really kits will eat anything and everything. Even things that they are not supposed to. For potty training, cover everything except the litter box with bedding and toys. If they miss, clean it up really well with vinegar, or diluted bleach, or water and baking soda (don't mix any of those of course lol) as soon as possible. Then, keep the litter box just a little bit dirty all of the time. This way they know that is where the poop goes. Once they get the idea, most ferrets (there are always exceptions) will usually not want to poop on their bedding and toys. Out of the cage litter training is a bit of a different ball game.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2011 19:31:10 GMT -5
How soon would it be safe to give them a whole mouse? (already dead) I found out there is a reptile store right by where I live and they sell mice of different sizes as well as rats and possibly rabbits.
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Post by katt on Apr 19, 2011 20:28:59 GMT -5
I'll be back on in a few but you can feed them mice as soon as today!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2011 23:28:57 GMT -5
OK checking in! Man, been so busy today! Didn't have time to pick up any mice, BUT, I did visit the market and get some meats.
About half of the meat I left in the cage this morning was gone when I got home from work. Fenton was actually munching away on the turkey back when I walked in the door.
I brought home the following: Beef heart Chicken liver Duck gizzard Chicken feet
I wasn't able to find lamb yet. There were plenty of pork products. I just wanted to double-check, is raw pork safe? I thought it carried the risk of Trichinosis and other parasites. What's the story there?
Anyway how does this sound, I made a soupie with the leftover chicken and turkey meat and bones, and added a little beef heart, chicken liver, and duck gizzard. I tried to maintain the ratio of meat to organs you suggested. Fiona is eating it up eagerly already, Fenton sniffed at it and licked it a bit but I am not sure if he is even hungry yet. He was eating turkey when I got home and his belly feels pretty big so he may not be hungry yet.
By the way, both ferrets were very energetic today, more than usual. Their stools were funky though, loose and watery.
I also weighed Fenton, my scale says he is 2 lbs. Is that OK for a 4 month old?
I didn't way Fiona yet, she's so tiny i'm having trouble getting a good reading with my scale. I probably need a more accurate scale if I want to really weigh them.
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Post by katt on Apr 20, 2011 0:03:38 GMT -5
Yay good ferrets! I brought home the following: Beef heart Chicken liver Duck gizzard Chicken feet
Awesome. You will need some more muscle meats though. While gizzard and heart both count as muscle meat rather than organs, you want more of muscles like breast and wing and such. Pork and beef meat, etc. I wasn't able to find lamb yet. There were plenty of pork products. I just wanted to double-check, is raw pork safe? I thought it carried the risk of Trichinosis and other parasites. What's the story there?Raw pork is just fine. Ferret stomachs are very acidic and most parasites can't survive there. In addition to that, pork actually carries parasites far less than is rumored. Other meats are often worse. MOST meats though sold in stores for human consumption are fine. There are exceptions but they are not as common as you might think. What bacteria there is on the meat is typically destroyed by ferret stomach acid. Short answer - pork is good. Anyway how does this sound, I made a soupie with the leftover chicken and turkey meat and bones, and added a little beef heart, chicken liver, and duck gizzard. I tried to maintain the ratio of meat to organs you suggested. Fiona is eating it up eagerly already, Fenton sniffed at it and licked it a bit but I am not sure if he is even hungry yet. He was eating turkey when I got home and his belly feels pretty big so he may not be hungry yet.Sounds to me like he is just not hungry. Try out the heart and liver and see how they like chunks of it also. If you end up with ferrets that only like organs as soupies that can be a pain. IMO. Mine eat it straight so I don't have to do any blending. It is still good to feed soups though. The soup sounds delicious, but how did you prepare it? Do you have a bone grinder? I am assuming it is all raw of course, but just to be safe since you mentioned bones I wanted to make a quick note that it is Never okay to feed cooked bones. :S Raw bones break, and are worn down to smooth edges by the stomach acid. They act like a natural scrub to massage and clean the gut to keep it healthy. Coked bones on the other hand, splinter and remain sharp, which can cause various injuries on their way through. By the way, both ferrets were very energetic today, more than usual. Their stools were funky though, loose and watery.This is normal on raw. You will find that they have more energy, and are able to gogogo for longer periods of time. This is one of the...erm..." upsides" of raw. I also weighed Fenton, my scale says he is 2 lbs. Is that OK for a 4 month old? Definitely! My Koda barely tips the scales at 2 pounds. He is a skinny little guy. Kenai on the other hand weighed in at a whopping 3 lb. He has since lost almost a pound of winter fat but you can't tell by looking at him. lol You may find that they loose weight on raw. But because you are starting them so young, they might also gain the typical Kit weight. I had both cases kind of. Koda and Kenai both started on all raw from the day they came home. Koda stayed relatively thin and is just a skinny guy naturally. Kenai on the other hand gained major kit+winter chub. I'd say 2lb is pretty average for a ferret. Some are smaller barely reaching 1 lb, and some are bigger - 3lb is usually considered big, 5lb Huge (usually means it is a breeder ferret instead of a mill ferret) and I think the biggest I have heard was around 7lb? I can't quite remember. I didn't way Fiona yet, she's so tiny i'm having trouble getting a good reading with my scale. I probably need a more accurate scale if I want to really weigh them.I got a little kitchen gram scale and plop them in a bowl to weigh them. I hear that fish scales work very nicely. You can hang them from the hook in a bag or from their harnesses.
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Post by katt on Apr 20, 2011 0:12:52 GMT -5
I forgot to add. You will probably be seeing strange poops for a little while. Their GI tracts have to adjust. Also where kibble makes for uniform poops (what goes in comes out!) you will find that raw poops are different every time they poop. Chicken poop is different from beef poop, meat poop is different from organ poop is different from whole prey poop. Bones and pumpkin can help to firm up soft stools. Organ and heart poops tend to be runny and dark due to the high blood content of heart and organs.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2011 2:54:09 GMT -5
I forgot to mention, I do not have a bone grinder. I used my normal blender and it burned out the motor Do I need to get a bone grinder at some point?
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Post by katt on Apr 20, 2011 4:47:48 GMT -5
I forgot to mention, I do not have a bone grinder. I used my normal blender and it burned out the motor Do I need to get a bone grinder at some point? No. I was just curious (and a little amazed) as to how you got bone in the soupies! ;D I would have warned you if I knew, I'm sorry! In the future, soups don't really need bone in them. A teaspoon of pumpkin per ferret will help with loose stools and you can add things like powdered egg shell or bone meal if you are concerned about the calcium content. And you have to be careful because you can overdo it on those. But they will be getting enough whole bones that you shouldn't need to worry about it in the soup.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2011 12:20:22 GMT -5
Cool, no grinder needed... I priced them and some were $700 hehe.
I hope the soupie I made was safe, the bones were not fully ground, but rather, in little chips. My blender didn't manage to do any better than that. There were also still chopped chunks of the organs and heart.
Update:
I left them with about 4 tablespoons of the meat/bone/organ soupie around dinner time last night. I checked their bowl during the night, and they had eaten everything except the chunks of heart and gizzard hehe... But I checked it again this morning and the chunks were gone so they finally did eat it all.
Left them with 2 chicken legs and more soupie. Hope it was enough food to tide them over until dinner time, they are starting to really chow down. Will try to get mice and/or pork and lamb today to introduce to them.
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Post by katt on Apr 20, 2011 15:47:10 GMT -5
Good ferrets! Keep me updated on the mice and pork and lamb. As for feeding amounts, I always make sure that I feed enough so that there is always some left over. This way I know for sure that they got what they wanted. They will not over eat so don't worry about that - give them as much food as they want. I keep raw in the cage at all times. I feed in the morning and at night and just leave it in there. I will give some meat in the morning and see how much is left over by that night. If any meat has spoiled I will remove it, and then top off the leftovers. Meat tends to dry out before it goes rotten, and they will not eat it if it is bad (unless like I mentioned before they are starving to death and desperate). Ferrets have VERY fast metabolism and digest their food within 3-4 hours. So it's good to have a constant supply of snacks in the cage. That said, unlike kibble with raw you don't HAVE To have a constant supply as the energy from the food will last them longer. You may find that some days they eat a TON, some days they barely touch their food. This is normal. It is actually good for them (later when they are not kits anymore lol) to miss a meal here and there. Bob Church is a renowned ferret expert and has done tons and tons of research on these guys. Missing a meal here and there more closely mimics their wild eating patterns (can't always catch a meal in the wild) and is actually good for them. Obviously missing meals regularly is not. lol And again, this does not apply to kits by my knowledge. But somethign to keep in mind as they get older.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2011 16:41:52 GMT -5
Hey not to get off-topic but I have been reading that adrenal disease is one of the most common health problem ferrets develop. A lot of what I have read makes it sound like there is no way to avoid adrenal problems if the ferret was altered too young (like Marshall ferrets). Some also say artificial light is to blame. Does a raw diet in any way help avoid adrenal problems? I know it helps avoid insulinoma. It's sad, when I bought my ferrets I said "How long do they live?" and the lady at the pet store said "up to 5 years". Then I read that a healthy ferret can live 10 years but that most Marshall ferrets only live half that
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Post by katt on Apr 20, 2011 20:39:52 GMT -5
Sadly, no diet does not prevent adrenal. It DOES however lead to a healthier ferret and stronger immune system and I understand that raw fed adrenal ferrets do MUCH better than kibble fed. Raw diet done properly extends ferrets lives - just like you or I would live longer if we ate really healthy. There are however, other preventatives to adrenal. The Des implant has been used with a lot of success and seems to be the unanimous favorite. It is an implant that releases a steady dose of hormones to keep the adrenal gland from over producing hormones. It can be implanted once a year as a preventative, or every 6 months as a treatment. Some people do preventative Lupron shots, but that is less successful as there is a narrow time window you have to get for it to work, and it is very easy to miss that window. I would find a god ferret vet in your area (you are going to want to have one handy anyways you never know when you will need one with these little buggers) and talk to them now about getting Des. It is on back order right now. Check out the Health and Medical board of the forum, there is a LOT of info on adrenal there.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2011 3:10:25 GMT -5
OK I got some pork stew meat from the local Asian market that looks like it has meat, lots of fat, and maybe even some cartilage. Also got some pig's feet.
They had lamb but it was SUPER expensive, like $10 a pound or something.
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Post by katt on Apr 21, 2011 3:15:37 GMT -5
Yeah lamb can be spendy. Some ferrets don't even like it. Look around for fancy pet stores, they might carry commercially ground raw which is a great way to add in a little variety that you might not get otherwise. Also, look for pork organs, beef, whole ducks are great, rabbit meat (usually found at the Asian market), Cornish Game Hen, Quail, etc. Let me know how they like the pork.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2011 1:03:44 GMT -5
Checking in:
I haven't given them the pork yet, but I did get some mice! I rubbed some kibble dust on them but so far they haven't touched the mice.
I thought I would try something to help them figure out it was meat: I sliced the mouse in half lengthwise. Pretty gross... but... I want them to understand that whole prey is food and I thought a mouse was an approachable place to start. Does that sound OK?
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