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Post by Desiree on Dec 5, 2014 11:49:19 GMT -5
1. Ferret's name: Riot
2. Ferret's weight: 2lbs .2 oz ( I think I need help reading my scale, I normally measure in grams, can I do that?) 3. Ferret has eaten "X" amount on average per meal: 1.5 oz if he hasn't been sneaking kibble. 4. Stools on various proteins: Good on chicken, turkey and beef heart. 5. Activity levels: Lethargic since vet appt, possible side effect from adrenal or lupron. Will monitor. 6. Weekly menu: Right now, I am waiting for my paychek and I will go and buy their weekly menu. I will post it when I get the chance. Today we try small pieces of a cornish game hen. He does okay with chunks but would rather not eat them. I have to hand feed him any pieces but we are up to about 1/4 to 1/2 in chunks covered with soup "gravy"
1. Ferret's name: Rebel 2. Ferret's weight: 1lbs .9 oz
3. Ferret has eaten "X" amount on average per meal: about 1 oz per meal, she eats a lot of what she stashes though, looks jerkified pieces. 4. Stools on various proteins: Good but she is on antibiotics for another couple of days, will update after that on poop. 5. Activity levels: Holy buckets, much improved. She has started playing and dooking. She is more active right now than Riot. 6. Weekly menu: Same as above except she eat chunks like a champ. She eats off the plate just fine but likes to be finger fed.
Right now I have been double batching to get me through a couple of days with them. We are still figuring out portions so there has been some waste.
Current soup recipe (more like a grind, just putting in enough water to get my blender to blend it) 8 oz chicken thigh 8 oz turkey gizzard 2 oz beef heart 2 oz chicken liver 1 tsp egg shell powder
I have been adding in 1oz of chicken chunks to three ice cubes about 4 oz of grind/mush. Weight varies, this morning I weighed the amount at 5 oz. I'll weigh before I replace it midday to see how much they ate.
Riot has been sneaking kibble. He wasn't hungry at all this morning. I was leaving it in the cage for Rebel because of her insu but since she eats great, it has now been removed permanently. He has to learn to eat chunks on his own. Which is why he ate the kibble, stubborn little butt.
I am having trouble finding bone in meats that aren't chicken wings and CGH. I also need to find another organ now as well. If I can't find any this weekend, I will check stores in the springs while I'm up there for school on monday. I did find ox tail but I doubt my oldies will be able to break the bone. Can I just mash it for them? I don't want them to choke or swallow something that won't pass.
I'll try to update daily but weekends are when I work so I might not have a lot of information.
Oh is a weekly weigh in good? I do this for my hedgehogs too. I can just add the ferrets into the line up.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2014 12:43:26 GMT -5
You will do well and Rebel and Riot will really benefit from their switch. (dance) The key to success with switching is to sit with them and coax/persuade them. Ferrets imprint on their food around six months to a year. Hand feeding them and being with them will make all the difference in the world.
Let me go thru and answer some questions and offer some suggestions:
( I think I need help reading my scale, I normally measure in grams, can I do that?)
Yes, you can report in grams. It's easy enough for those of us who use ounces to convert to grams. Try to calibrate your scale. Take a can and see what it weighs and then check it against your scale.
Riot: 5. Activity levels: Lethargic since vet appt, possible side effect from adrenal or lupron. Will monitor.
Riot may be feeling the effects of the vet visit. Keep an eye on him and see if his energy picks up. I don't have any experience with Adrenal or Lupron (knock on wood), but some other Mentor may offer their experience.
Rebel:
5. Activity levels: Holy buckets, much improved. She has started playing and dooking. She is more active right now than Riot. 6. Weekly menu: Same as above except she eat chunks like a champ. She eats off the plate just fine but likes to be finger fed.
Yeah for high energy little Rebel. I just love seeing them play and dook. She sounds like she is a good eater and that's a great sign. What size are the chunks? Can you post a picture with a dime or quarter next to them? Most prefer slivers but if she is fine with chunks, then so be it.
Their Soupie recipe:
Current soup recipe (more like a grind, just putting in enough water to get my blender to blend it) 8 oz chicken thigh 8 oz turkey gizzard 2 oz beef heart 2 oz chicken liver 1 tsp egg shell powder
We generally suggest that you stick to one protein at a time, during the switch. If Rebel or Riot have an allergy or intolerance to a protein and you mix them, then we don't know which protein caused the problem.
The soupie recipe that we start with is: 8oz of chicken thigh 1-2 chicken hearts 1/2 chicken liver 1/2 tsp of dried eggshell powder.
How are you managing to blend up a turkey gizzard? lol, that must be tough on your blender. Gizzards are fantastic for cleaning teeth and building jaw strength. We don't usually put them in a soupie, but save them for slivers, once they are eating the soupie well.
What I would do in your case, is try to keep to one protein at a time. If you want to do turkey, then do all turkey. Beef is a strong flavor and I'd save that for further down the line.
Keep watch over their stools and energy levels with each new protein. That will alert you to problems with a particular protein. Also each new food is like starting over. You will have to teach them that every new protein is food. This won't last forever, don't panic. What worked for me was to offer the same protein for two or three days in a row. Switching proteins twice a day, makes for a great looking menu. However, mine didn't eat well finding something new in their plate every meal.
The idea with the soupie is to get them eating the soup. Again, you want to hand feed or sit with them. Then when they are eating the soupie, start adding small slivers. In Rebel's case, you are already there. When they are eating slivers, you will decrease the amount of soup and increase the amount of slivers or chunks.
Then we can move them to a Frankenprey menu, if that's what you are planning on feeding them. Were you interested in Whole prey or Commercial grinds? Another Mentor can help you with that. I am a Frankenprey feeder.
I am having trouble finding bone in meats that aren't chicken wings and CGH
Look for Quail or rabbit. You need to find a good Asian Market with a nice meat/fish and produce section. They will have all kinds of good organs and meats. Plus their prices are reasonable.
Google "find Asian Markets near (your area)". You're in Colorado, and I've only vacationed there and I'm not familiar with most of Colorado.
If you are near a Military base, they can be great sources for Asian Markets. Maybe you are near Norad or Colorado Springs (the AF Academy).
I did find ox tail but I doubt my oldies will be able to break the bone.
No, they won't be able to eat that bone. Bones for Ferrets are defined as the NON WEIGHT BEARING bones of an animal the size of a chicken or smaller.
Chicken, duck, cornish game hen, quail, rabbit are some choices. You can use the smaller bones of turkey, but they tend to be tough.
If the oxtail has marrow, scoop some out. Marrow is wonderful for them. Fat equals energy for ferrets.
If you can get a picture of Rebel and Riot from the top, looking down, that's helpful. A picture of them Dangling is also good. We need to see their little body and gauge their weights.
A weekly weigh in is fine: Include, their weight/poop report/activity levels and what they are eating. Once you are off soupie, then we will look for and talk about a weekly menu.
You're off to a good start. Nice job Ferrenting and Rebel and Riot will be happier and healthier for your efforts.
(dance)
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Post by Desiree on Dec 5, 2014 15:53:48 GMT -5
What size are the chunks? Can you post a picture with a dime or quarter next to them? Most prefer slivers but if she is fine with chunks, then so be it.
They started out with slivers but they ate them so well that we moved onto to chunks. They have been raw fed since last Friday and so far they have taken every step very well. We have been on chunks for two days now. Riot doesn't mind if they are long and thin but doesn't like them thicker. I'll make a batch tonight and take a picture.
How are you managing to blend up a turkey gizzard?
Yeah, I didn't realize that till after they were in the blender. LOL! It was a pain but I made it work.
What I would do in your case, is try to keep to one protein at a time. If you want to do turkey, then do all turkey. Beef is a strong flavor and I'd save that for further down the line.
I cannot find any hearts that aren't beef right now. I can check on Monday when I hit the Springs but right now my butcher has to order chicken hearts in 40lb batches!!! I can do all chicken, chicken liver though. I read through the raw soup thread and someone else asked if it was okay to mix and I think Sherry said yes.
Were you interested in Whole prey or Commercial grinds? Another Mentor can help you with that. I am a Frankenprey feeder.
I was thinking of doing frankenprey with maybe one or two meals a week being whole prey. I can find rats and guinea pigs and whole rabbits but they do tend to be pricier so I don't want to do a whole menu of those.
Look for Quail or rabbit. You need to find a good Asian Market with a nice meat/fish and produce section. They will have all kinds of good organs and meats. Plus their prices are reasonable.
Will do this on Monday when I can get up to the springs. Norad and Airforce academy are about an hour away from me but I go to school up there so I can just shop after class.
Good to know on the ox tail, it's pretty pricey so I might just wait on that one.
If you can get a picture of Rebel and Riot from the top, looking down, that's helpful. A picture of them Dangling is also good. We need to see their little body and gauge their weights.
A weekly weigh in is fine: Include, their weight/poop report/activity levels and what they are eating. Once you are off soupie, then we will look for and talk about a weekly menu.
I will try to get their pictures by tonight up and ready. Hard to get little man to hold still though.
My goal is on Monday I'm going to look for duck, quail, and rabbit. I'm thinking muscle meat meals will be some pork and turkey. Whole prey will be rat and guinea pig. At least, this is somewhat of my end goal.
I'm going to make more soup tonight and begin offering more of those long thin chunks/strips with soup gravy. I went to the butcher today and bought some pork brain, beef kidney and more beef heart so should I add the other organs or wait till they are eating more of a frankeprey menu.
The soup tonight will be chicken liver, beef heart, chicken thigh and eggshell.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2014 16:56:25 GMT -5
Sounds like your Rebel and Riot are in good hands.
When you move over to Frankenprey and add Whole Prey, you will subtract the whole prey meals from the Frankenprey meals and adjust your organs accordingly. We can talk about that further down the road.
What worked for me was to make a menu and then stick with the same menu. They get familiar with the foods and eat better and better.
You still have a little way to go before Frankenprey and Whole prey, but just for info sake. Muscle Meats, remember Heart is a Muscle Meat not an Organ for our purposes. Also, gizzards can't be beat. They are great for cleaning teeth and building jaw strength for eating bones. A red meat meal is very good for them. Red meat is high in Iron and Vitamin B. Pork and turkey are also very good choices. You will have four meals of Muscle Meats on Frankenprey.
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Post by Desiree on Dec 5, 2014 19:50:19 GMT -5
Awesome! Thank you for the help! I'll update tonight with the long slivers and gravy.
I had to sit Riot down and finger feed him to get him to eat the rest of his breakfast. But he did eat it. Rebel ate a LARGE 1/2 inch by 1 inch piece of gizzard all by herself!
Is the soup okay for now until Monday? With the beef heart? They have been eating good and poops look great too. If I can find chicken heart on Monday I will do a full chicken soup if it's best.
Also CGH and chicken are considered the same protein correct? Oh and cow tongue, is a muscle meat right? I found some and I wondered if they would like it. Doesn't it also contain taurine like the heart?
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Post by Desiree on Dec 6, 2014 0:53:05 GMT -5
Dinner was a bust. Rebel was being a brat tonight and didn't want to eat, she kept stashing them instead of eating the chunks. Because I have to syringe meds everyday she HATES being picked up. I try to make sure to pick her up more often and show her love so she isn't as freaked out every time but it still sucks. She guzzled down a lot of food this morning about 2 oz and only ate about .5 oz tonight.
Riot ate a good 1 ounce tonight which is impressive since most of it was chunks. I tried to cut the slivers but the chicken was to defrosted so I'll make more tomorrow. He ate about 2 ounces this morning too. He was better about eating the chunks and not stashing them since I can make him eat in my lap.
Neither ate this from the plate so I'll stay with these size chunks until they eat on their own. Still covering the chunks with "soup" but I can reduce that once they eat it on their own.
Pictures tomorrow. I'm tired and annoyed tonight.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2014 1:26:22 GMT -5
You're doing good, so sorry your two have Adrenal and Insu so quickly diagnosed together and so soon after you got them, but you're doing a great job with them. Not a mentor but have had some experience with Adrenal, Insulinoma and Lymphoma. My girl Juliet (DIP) had Adrenal and Insulinoma, and we suspected in the end developed Lymphoma, my last girl Neichei (DIP) had Insulinoma, and my last boy Adrian (DIP) had Lymphoma. Are you going to do Lupron until the Deslorelin is back on the market? That's a good idea, the sooner it is treated the better. Lupron works more quickly, within a couple of weeks, but will have to get the shot every 4-6 weeks and it's double the price of Deslorelin in the long run, but for a few months is good to help the disease, then getting the Des, which lasts about 6-9 months. What is Rebel taking for her Insu? My girls were on Prednisone (pediapred, aka prednisolone that doesn't taste as bad), and once in the later stages my Neichei was on Diazoxide. Prednisolone does well keeping the disease controlled, but once seizures start every week or other week it's best to begin a new medicine. What was Rebel's latest BG reading? Has she ever had a seizure, or was she just lethargic? There is a lot of controversy over CGH and Chicken, they aren't necessarily the same protein, since some ferrets who are allergic to chicken do fine on CGH, and vice versa, we count it as separate. It really is best to stick with one protein if you can, as reasons Stef mentioned. Just be sure to keep moving their sliver/chunks sizes up as much as they will let you, awesome they've taken to them so well already.
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Post by Desiree on Dec 6, 2014 11:40:15 GMT -5
Thank you for the kind words, I knew it was a possibility with adopting some older ones. I'm just glad they are with me.
Are you going to do Lupron until the Deslorelin is back on the market?
That is the plan. Hopefully it will be in by January and he won't have to take another shot.
What is Rebel taking for her Insu? What was Rebel's latest BG reading? Has she ever had a seizure, or was she just lethargic?
She is on prednisolone, .15ml twice a day. Her BG was at 56 and she was lethargic and acting drunk. She couldn't hop over the litter box and her back end would drift off. No seizures. She has been happier and more active since and no more biting!
Thanks, I will look for chicken hearts but for now, they have been handling beef and chicken really well.
This mornings update!
I mixed in one cube of soup gravy with two cubes of slivers. Weight was 2.9 oz. Rebel ate .5 oz. She may have stashed a few pieces but those are always gone in the morning, so I know she is crunching on them at night. I know it's not Riot because he does not like jerkified meat.
Riot ate 1 oz and I had to really force him to eat the last .2 ounces. He did really good with the chunks but wanted to stash it. I don't let him for now since I know he won't eat it. When he starts eating more won't care if he stashes. Neither are eating off the plate yet. We are going to try the spoon at lunch and at dinner then hopefully move to plate tomorrow. Pieces are about 1/8 to 1/4 in thick and various lengths. Both of them are chewing with their back teeth now. (dance)
I tried to take dangle pictures this morning by my self and I definitely need help! Haha, will try to get someone to help me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2014 12:05:56 GMT -5
Vibrac has changed the date so many times, we aren't sure when it will be out, but lets hope for sooner rather than later.
BG of 56 isn't very good but isn't very bad, anything under 70 is a confirmed diagnosis, anything in the 80's can be suspicious and 90 and above is a good reading. Do you have a BG monitor? I have a True2Go, got it at Walgreens for $10 and it has 10 test strips, perhaps you could get a monitor and calibrate it with your Vets so you can check her BG every once in a while, if it drops you increase the dose, if it's the same (56) may also want to adjust it, if it's better than dose is good.
How many ounces is Rebel eating per day? 2-3 oz is good and normal for a female, usually when they first start on raw they can be giant piggies, but not all the time. Be sure you are feeding Rebel at least every 6 hours, would be best for Riot too, 2 meals a day is just the balanced meals they need, but they need to eat every 4-6 hours, and have snacks available.
You can scruff them quickly for the dangle pictures, just for a couple seconds, I have to with my girl sometimes because she can be a giant pain about it.
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Post by Desiree on Dec 6, 2014 12:18:42 GMT -5
I'll go buy the testing unit today! Thanks. I'll test her blood too when I get home. She gets fed three times a day and always has food available. At night, I put in a more watery soup with smaller slivers because that is what they will eat on their own. She eats about 1.5 to 2 ounces a day, when I feed her, she always eats her stashes though over the night when she is in her cage. So I'm not sure how much she actually eating but it's more than what I just feed her. She loves crunchy dried up chicken. Finally got the pictures. It was more about arm length. I was trying to take them with my nice camera when I realized a cell phone pic will work. Rebel doesn't like any oil so getting her to hold still was a pain for the top down picture. This is there left over breakfast so you can see what they are eating.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2014 12:36:18 GMT -5
Test her BG right before you feed her so it's been just a few hours (for the most accurate result), you can clip a little hair from the tip of her tail, rub it with some alcohol and poke it, have had much more success with the tail than the paw pad and mine don't even flinch when I do it that way. So you feed her about every 4 hours or so? That's good, am glad she's feeling better than before. My girl also likes jerky, not a whole lot but she's the only one that will eat it on occasion. Rebel is a little skinny, see around her hips where it's a bit sunken in? She lacks muscle mass, but probably will gain some back after she's stable and on raw. Riot looks good. How long has Rebel been on her medicine? It can take 7-10 days for the Pred to start affecting BG, not always but sometimes. The food looks good, awesome they're already on slivers, pushing them is key, out stubborning the most stubborn.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2014 13:42:28 GMT -5
Awesome! Thank you for the help! I'll update tonight with the long slivers and gravy. I had to sit Riot down and finger feed him to get him to eat the rest of his breakfast. But he did eat it. Rebel ate a LARGE 1/2 inch by 1 inch piece of gizzard all by herself! Is the soup okay for now until Monday? With the beef heart? They have been eating good and poops look great too. If I can find chicken heart on Monday I will do a full chicken soup if it's best. Also CGH and chicken are considered the same protein correct? Oh and cow tongue, is a muscle meat right? I found some and I wondered if they would like it. Doesn't it also contain taurine like the heart? Cornish game hen is considered a different protein from chicken. It is basically a small chicken, but chickens come in different "breeds", so the Rock Cornish Game Hen is a different breed from a regular grocery store chicken and we count it as a different protein. It's like comparing poodles to terriers. Soup is good in the fridge for about two days, not really much more. Keep it on the lower shelf, close to the cooling part (vent) in your fridge. The top shelf and the door compartments are the warmest part of the fridge. Tongue does contain Taurine and actually more than Heart. Taurine is found in muscle meats and the more the muscle is used, the higher the amount of Taurine. Mine love tongue, it can be expensive but you will get alot of meals from it. I buy pork tongue because it's less expensive then beef tongue.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2014 13:50:26 GMT -5
I Love that you adopted Rebel and Riot, knowing that they were older. I am very glad that they have such a good, caring and loving Ferrent. Your girls are beautiful and I'm sure they are happy and will get healthier in their Forever Home.
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Post by Desiree on Dec 6, 2014 15:26:08 GMT -5
Thank you @poncesmom. I got a dig box today and a dangle cat toy thing that Rebel absolutely adores! She tries to stash it. She loves little stuffed animals. I need to go and buy her more. I also got a blood glucose monitor. Rebel's BG came back at 81. Does anyone have a good video of how to take her BG? How often should I be testing her? It took me a minute or two to get enough blood from the pad of her foot and she is a wiggly little thing. Riot ate another ounce at lunch and Rebel ate another ounce as well. I left an ounce for them out in their room. Today's total so far is Riot - 2 oz Rebel - 1.5 oz I'll probably post a daily total most nights if I remember to post and/or remember to weigh it.
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Post by Desiree on Dec 6, 2014 23:28:39 GMT -5
ALright, dinner went pretty well. They both finished off lunch with my help and ate .5oz a piece. Dinner was soup with chicken gizzards since those were defrosted and my chicken thigh wasn't. Riot ate an ounce and Rebel ate .7 ounce. They ate off the spoon for both but they tend to stash more this way. I have a box I am trying to use as a feeding den or in my case a stashing den so all the pieces can be in one spot. I move anything in the box in the cage at the end of the night since Rebel loves those. Both chewed on the gizzards fairly well but I think that's why they stopped before the ate it all.
Totals for today were
Riot - 3.5 ounces (Should I make him eat more?)
Rebel - 2.7 ounces.
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