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Post by w1ldc4rd on May 5, 2011 6:01:49 GMT -5
I would like to first thank everyone for providing the wealth of information on here concerning raw and whole prey diets for ferrets. My ferret is fed a whole prey and raw diet that parallels the recommendations I found in the forum. In no way am I criticizing the moderators of the forum. Their knowledge and experience far outweighs my own. The topic is only meant to spark discussion to increase our knowledge in caring for our pets.
As we all know, we feed our ferrets a raw and whole prey diet in order to replicate a ferret's most natural diet. I've also read numerous times that a ferret will not eat unless he is feeling hungry, so owners don't have to worry about feeding them too much. It's the ladder I bring in to question.
How many calories does a polecat consume on a daily basis? I have a hard time believing that a polecat is capable of catching and consuming 2-3 adult mice daily, normal for our pets. I'm fairly positive that a polecat burns far more calories hunting and exercising in the wild compared to even those of us who let our ferrets free roam. Does the polecat compensate for the void of calories with insects and worms, or has the metabolism of the domesticated ferret evolved?
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Post by w1ldc4rd on May 5, 2011 6:15:32 GMT -5
Just to add to the discussion, here's an interesting link I found of a scientific study on European polecats and stone marten's. "From the total number of animals collected, 20 polecat (29%) and 12 stone marten (10%) stomachs were empty and, therefore, were excluded from further analysis. Of the 108 stone marten stomachs that contained food remains, 51 (47%) contained only a single dietary item, 42 (39%) contained two items and 15 (14%) contained three dietary items. Similar results were obtained for the 49 polecat stomachs containing remains, with 29 (59%) containing a single dietary item, 14 (29%) contained two items and six (12%) containing three dietary items. Very few stomachs were analysed from animals killed in summer (Table 1) and, therefore, the results from this season may be biased." findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_7539/is_200901/ai_n32323243/?tag=mantle_skin;content
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Post by Sherry on May 5, 2011 9:26:43 GMT -5
Not a clue on how much a wild polecat consumes, but as long as my ferrets are healthy, active, and very muscular, I'm not going to worry about how much they should/should not be eating! ;D
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2011 9:31:37 GMT -5
Just because a polecat doesn't catch 2-3 mice a day, doesn't mean it isn't an appropriate amount of food. In the wild conditions aren't ideal and if the polecat can't find food it goes hungry. Just the name of the game in the wild. Another aspect to consider is that polecats in the wild are solitary and ferrets are usually kept in groups, playing together several hours a day. So they do burn quite a bit of energy in our care.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2011 9:32:27 GMT -5
If the main question is "how many mice per day " i think the answer can be found in this statement: " Very few stomachs were analysed from animals killed in summer (Table 1) and, therefore, the results from this season may be biased." If this was done in winter, the animals' metabolism had likely slowed down to compensate for the lack of food. Furthermore, while i'm not familiar with pole cat digestive processes, i'm assuming that it is also short, like a ferrets. Catching one mouse/small animal every three to 4 hours is actually not a lot for a an animal who spends its entire day looking for something to eat. Finally, you could note that 30% of the polecats were sporting empty stomachs, so the flip side of this argument is that perhaps the polecats can catch more than they can eat but also that they go longer without eating than our domestic weasels. If you look at the behavior of other animals related to a ferret, you will see that they are capable of catching and eating quite a bit. For example the stoat will catch and kill a rabbit much larger than itself, likely this meal will last it a few days, but in the mean time it can eat as much or as little of the rabbit as it wants. Larger, further removed members of the such as the wolverine, spend all of their waking time looking for food, and eat whatever they encounter. Im inclined to believe that, given the preserved "hoarding" behavior of the ferret, its closest relatives also engage in similar behavior. Thus they probably catch MORE than they can eat and bring it back to the den or burrow. Its important to keep in mind that wild animals have only three goals : eat, mate, don't get eaten. Outside of breeding season, a most of the animal's time is spent looking for food. Given the success of the Mustelidae genus, I'd argue that they are quite capable of catching a few mice or the equivalent amount of larger prey. Finally, via domestication we have developed an animal more suited to OUR lifestyle and needs. Think about a dog- could it survive on a deer carcass for a week? sure. And then go a few days without eating? id say yes. But does that mean that that is a convenient way to feed a domesticated animal that can thrive on a feeding schedule that emulates a humans? Ive never given my dog a deer carcass, but im going to take a shot in the dark and say no ;D I think it is very likely that ferrets can live on a diet schedule similar to that of a polecat, but i dont think there would be less food, just longer periods without food. At the end of a long fast i'm inclined to believe a ferret would eat as many mice as it could get its hands on, and then grab twice as many to hide in a convenient but unreachable hole somewhere
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Post by kainslie1 on May 5, 2011 9:40:26 GMT -5
I never knew if I was feeding too much or too little, I would give sly, 2 mice, and he'd eat them easily, i'd give him turkey hearts, and *bam* they would disappear, I could give him a chicken thigh and he would eat 1/4 of it..
Ferrets don't over eat (or so I hear) so I just gave him food until he would stop eating.. worked out for us =]
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Post by w1ldc4rd on May 5, 2011 11:05:23 GMT -5
I think it's unfair to compare a stoat to a ferret, despite their genetic resemblance. A stoat is a far more competent hunter compared to a ferret, and most likely has far less difficulty finding a meal. As much as we'd love it, I don't think any of us can say our ferrets are capable of this:
I'm also unsure whether a ferret passes its entire meal after 4 hours, though you may be right. There may be some still left in there. *yuck*
I do agree with you on the biased study being done on the winter though. A study done in the summer would definitely be needed. Although one could argue that a ferret needs more food in the winter to maintain body heat, like ours do.
I'm not talking about convenience. We also invented kibble... Just what technically would be best. Perhaps not feeding them for longer periods of time actually is better for them?
kainslie I pointed the same thing out in the first post, which is what I'm bringing to question.
Remember I'm not saying what we're doing is wrong, I'm just bringing up a discussion, and looking for progress.
One of the reasons I'm bringing this up is bc I wonder if it is possible for our ferrets to have the physique and health of a polecat based on diet, or is it not possible being so far removed?
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Post by katt on May 5, 2011 13:10:39 GMT -5
To your last statement, if you look at most European, or even American Breeder ferrets you will find they resemble a polecat much more than most ferrets in the US. The reason for this has little to do with diet, and everything to do with thousands of years of selective breeding, and early alteration. In the US ferrets have been bred for docile personalities, colors, and in many cases, small stature (whether the small size was intentional or a side effect of breeding for color and temperament I do not know). They are then ripped away from their mother before they are old enough, so they do not begin their life with quite the nutrition that they need. Then, they are altered before their bodies have even begun to mature, robbing them of the chance to exhibit proper development. Think of castrati - they never became "true men," or "polecats" because they were stripped of vital hormones. This is what mills do to ferrets. Add to that all of the side effects of poor selective breeding, and you have an animal that regardless of what its diet may be, will never look like a Polecat. If you look at Breeder ferrets you will find they resemble polecats much more in build. Keep in mind as well that despite their similarities these are two completely different breeds, genetically compatible or not. A Labrador retriever and a wolf are both canines, and genetically compatible. You might ask if feeding a lab a proper diet would make it look more like a wolf. Yes. It will indeed make the lab stronger, healthier, more muscled, etc...but the lab is a lab, and not a wolf. Ferrets are not polecats - they have been domesticated, and domestically/selectively bred for almost as long as dogs. While they still very closely resemble polecats, and many have polecat in their lineage (mainly European breeder ferrets) the fact is they are ferrets not polecats. As for the diet. On a raw diet ferrets will self regulate. This is not possible on kibble for a few reasons, so yes on kibble most animals are overfed, or undernourished. Or both. A raw diet is entirely different though. Depending on the age of your ferret you may or may not have noticed this, but most ferrets fed a raw diet will vastly alter the amount they eat each day. In young ferrets this occurs less so because they need all of the nutrition they can get to fuel their growing bodies. In adult ferrets though, you may find that one day they eat you out of house and home, and another they hardly eat anything at all - if anything. This mimics their natural eating pattern in the wild. There was an article in the old forum - I will see if I can find it - by ferret expert Bob Church who has done more extensive research on ferrets and polecats than probably anyone else alive. haha Anyways, he says that allowing ferrets to skip meals on occasion is not only okay, but healthy for them. Now I don't know about everyone else, but somehow I doubt this is not the case for everyone - we all have mornings when we wake up late, have to rush off for work, and oops the ferrets don't get fed because there was no time. Obviously if this happens regularly you are looking at neglect issues, but I am talking about the odd day here and there. This is actually healthy for them. It is very very difficult, if not impossible to overfeed a ferret on a truly balanced raw diet. Keep in mind also, that wild polecats are not solely rodent hunters. They also eat insects, worms, amphibians, small lizards...and carrion such as rabbit and various large animals that were killed by some other cause.
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Post by katt on May 5, 2011 13:25:31 GMT -5
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Post by joclyn on May 5, 2011 13:44:38 GMT -5
ferrets fed a natural diet definitely self-regulate how much they eat - i've been seeing that with mine for almost a year now!
also, since they're now mainly on prey rather than raw pieces, they also self-regulate what part of the items they eat, too!! i see them going for different parts of the body and i see that it varies on who eats the organs each day and who goes for the harder pieces like the bony feet or the skull.
mother natures knows what she's doing - it's SO cool to be able to watch things up-front and personal!!
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Post by crazylady on May 5, 2011 13:45:31 GMT -5
Hi I feed mine once per day usually around 7pm but they never eat until later they drag it off into a corner to eat at there leisure the size of portion varies with the males ( usually 3-4 oz of meat ) females 2-3oz of meat what a lot of people forget is in the wild a polecat could live off one kill ( say an adult rabbit ) quiet happily for a week or more ! my guys are not undernourished in any way ( males on average are 5 pounds summer 7-71/2 pounds winter lol ) and I work them so they do get plenty of excersise lol its strange you mention about the hunger day because my father always used to do that on a sunday ( afraid I am too soft that is there low meal in this house they class it as a treat tuna or tinned cat food ) he used to say its the day the body is cleansed the day they go hungry diet depends on which area the polecat lives in too in England the main diet in the wild is rabbit ( over here there a big pest ) but they do feast on ground laying birds of salmon found on the shores after spawning or road kill as for how much well my father also used to say to me a ferret eats its fill in 10 mins then stashes for a snack later I know my guys follow this way of eating lol ( in some cases they forget the stash and I find it days later lol ) take care bye for now Bev aka crazy lady
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2011 14:15:19 GMT -5
Hi I feed mine once per day usually around 7pm but they never eat until later they drag it off into a corner to eat at there leisure the size of portion varies with the males ( usually 3-4 oz of meat ) females 2-3oz of meat what a lot of people forget is in the wild a polecat could live off one kill ( say an adult rabbit ) quiet happily for a week or more ! my guys are not undernourished in any way ( males on average are 5 pounds summer 7-71/2 pounds winter lol ) and I work them so they do get plenty of excersise lol its strange you mention about the hunger day because my father always used to do that on a sunday ( afraid I am too soft that is there low meal in this house they class it as a treat tuna or tinned cat food ) he used to say its the day the body is cleansed the day they go hungry diet depends on which area the polecat lives in too in England the main diet in the wild is rabbit ( over here there a big pest ) but they do feast on ground laying birds of salmon found on the shores after spawning or road kill as for how much well my father also used to say to me a ferret eats its fill in 10 mins then stashes for a snack later I know my guys follow this way of eating lol ( in some cases they forget the stash and I find it days later lol ) take care bye for now Bev aka crazy lady I agree with your dad! My dogs get fasted every Sunday. Haven't done it with the ferrets yet.... I was watching a program on cheetas, on how the wild ones' health compared to that of the ones in zoos. All the wild cheetas they ever autopsied, no matter what their age, had perfect kidneys, whereas all the captive cheetas had some degree of kidney disease. Besides exercise, the 1 major lifestyle diff is that captive cheetas are fed every day, whereas wild ones are not.
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Post by Sherry on May 7, 2011 0:08:14 GMT -5
Besides exercise, the 1 major lifestyle diff is that captive cheetas are fed every day, whereas wild ones are not. Off the ferret topic here, but I also have to wonder how much the stress of captivity itself may play into that.
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Post by katt on May 7, 2011 2:34:20 GMT -5
It has been found beneficial for humans to fast a day as well.
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Post by Sherry on May 7, 2011 19:02:05 GMT -5
It might at that, but my tummy would certainly disagree with that particular statement, and I have to live with it ;D
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