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Post by RedSky on Jul 28, 2014 3:22:32 GMT -5
So you don't just feed any of them, you have mice that you keep for breeding and therefore don't feed? That makes sense. Still don't think I could do it. I breed mealworms and I often feel mean feeding them to the other pets haha. But thanks for your answer.
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Post by katt on Jul 28, 2014 4:37:01 GMT -5
Correct. I have breeders and feeders. If a new breeder turns out to be a poor mom I will often feed her off and find a new breeder, so I don't get too attached until they've had a solid litter. Though I generally don't get overly attached to them in general anyways. BUT of course there are exceptions. I have had a few I was particularly fond of, and several retired breeders I rehomed as pets or in a few cases, kept as nannies.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2014 3:50:32 GMT -5
Hi - with regards to breeding mice you did the best thing keeping the pair of them together the male can provide extra warmth to the mouse pups as for the first few days they cannot regulate their own body temp. If mum is pretty tame you should be able to start handling the pups after they are about 7 days old if your female is skittish wait until they are about 10 days old. You can wean and separate the the pups when they are 3-4 weeks old. Three weeks is better as mum will have possibly given birth to her next litter by then. Also make sure male and female pups are separated by 4.5 weeks if you are keeping them for live feeding as they will become sexually mature from 5-6 weeks and you don't want bros and sisters mating if you can help it.
Wïth a good high protein diet the female should do well to stay with the male and give you about 4 litters of good size. After about 4 litters you may find the litters get smaller or you get a few runts as the female is getting past her prime for having pups.
If you want your pair to become a harem add one or two females straight after the litter is weaned and before a new litter is born. Often with harems the female have litters within a few days of each other and take turns feeding all the pups communally in one large nest.
Another couple of tips I have found over the years of breeding mice - use paper shreds, unprinted cardboard or even just put a couple of sheets of white tissue or kitchen paper in for nesting material it is excellent enrichment for mice to make their own nest. Also have a couple of dark places or tubes for them to hide in.
To prevent litter losses do not change out the nesting material for the first fifteen days the pups are born. Mice generally keep nest pretty clean and like to have their scent around it keeps them calm. just change out the pee corners of the shavings too until the pups are running around outside the nest 12 - 15 days old this keeps stress levels low for mum. Also when you do a full cage clean leave about a third of the original nest material in the cage and scatter a handful of the older shavings it carries the smell into the new bedding reducing stress. If you find the smell of the male mice intensive use an air purifier and put a little sprinkle of sodium bicarbonate under the shavings in the pee corners. Or use a little wood based cat litter in a corner pan in the established pee corners. The mice will poop every where but they like to pee in the same spots. Bear in mind that by not over cleaning the bedding to often it also reduces the males going on a mad scenting trail of the cage.
I have vast experience breeding mice so if you have any questions feel free to ask and I will do my best to answer. Hope this advice helps - all the best - ninjagoth x
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 19:05:44 GMT -5
I just want to update everyone on what has happened! Unfortunately, a day after being re-introduced to Theresa, Dude was violently attacking and raping the other two females in the cage. I moved him the next day into a separate set of 3 females. He raped all of them violently and unfortunately caused death in one that I will not go into any more detail about. He was killed for feeding later that day, and the poor girl he got ahold of was also fed, so she got to go to good use at least. Since this happened, Theresa has had her litter. There were 9 in all, and after feeding one as a treat, and 3 more naturally dying (stillborn, died of cold on day 2, and eaten by mom on day 3 in that order), 5 remain. They're all cuties! I must admit that this mice-breeding stuff is NOT for the weak-hearted! katt I went ahead and made that lovely mouse food you linked me to, but have yet to run out of my store brand stuff and use it. If anyone is interested, I HIGHLY recommend making the mix if you have a local bulk provider nearby. I used Whole Foods, personally. The Brewer's Yeast came in a large can for about $20, (I'll easily get about 10 batches of food or more out of this) and the remaining stuff was $10 total! I got about 5lbs out of this, which is crazy cheap! The generic pet store brand (cheapest I could find at the time) was $9 for 4lbs. Anyway, we've since gotten several more groups of mice. One of Dude's victims is pregnant... I've been giving her lots of love because she seems rather skittish since her encounter, and I've moved her in with Theresa and her pups, to get a feel for motherhood. We now have 2 full breeding groups of 1 male and 3 females each. In addition, we have Theresa, her pups, and 3 more ladies to help her (including our pregnant girl). Overall, it's going well.
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Post by katt on Aug 16, 2014 0:29:28 GMT -5
Thanks for the update! I'm glad you got to make the mix. Poor little girls. I would make sure that you do NOT hold back any of Dude's offspring for breeding. You only want to pick healthy offspring of stable, healthy, productive breeders - with emphasis on stable. I hope your little female recovers from that stressful event.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2014 7:52:31 GMT -5
@ninjagoth Wonderful advice, thank you! I will try what you suggested with the bedding. I am trying a harem situation where I am keeping any pregnant females in with any females who have recently had litters and are still in a cool-down period. I plan to remove the pups once they're between 30 and 45 days old and move them to a nursery to fully grow. katt All of these are Petco mice at the moment. I recently (within the last week) got in touch with a local breeder (same pet store that I found Opal in... he is clearly much more a mouse person than a ferret person...) and he's agreed to give me some of his new breeder mice before they reach adulthood. I got one girl from him before deciding on any more, but I do think I'll get a few groups from him. So it's not likely that I will carry over any of these Petco mice for long-term breeding but I certainly won't be continuing dude's line whatsoever... I was totally shocked at the way he got so violent so quickly... smh. Honestly I think he was upset I separated him from her. I should never have re-introduced them. Anyway, you're very right about discontinuing his line. I don't want to even think about having this happen again. Also, I really like the way you said you have breeders and feeders, and just the general way you've described your setup. That's exactly the way I'm approaching this, I think, and would really like your mentorship if you'd be willing to let me PM you sometime? There's not a lot I have questions about, but every so often I think of something and don't feel sure if I can trust google on it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2014 8:09:50 GMT -5
And for those of you picture junkies (I am looking at you @poncesmom though I'm not sure how much you love mice...!) These are all 5 of Theresa's pups, 17 days old now, almost ready to come out of their nesting box! Cuties, aren't they? I'm very proud of my first litter!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2014 8:23:47 GMT -5
Hi sorry to hear about your experience with Dude. It makes sense not to continue his line of mice. Unfortunately you do on occasion get a male who is aggressive. Thankfully it does not happen too often. Sounds like you have a good breeding set up going and before you know it you will have lots and lots of mice Once mice get going there is no stopping them lol. Yeah I agree with you breeding mice is not for the faint hearted and sometimes you will lose the odd pup and yes quite often mum will eat them - she just sees them as a good high protein source. Once they are cold she will not recognise them as her pups. One thing I love about new born mouse pups is the little squeaky noises they make to mum when they sense her nearby or she is carrying them. It is so cute. I have had some mums who I can hear squeak back to them too but is doesn't happen often, depends on the mouse. Sounds sensible you are looking to a breeder for future breeding mouse stocks rather than the pet shop varieties. I have found in the past that often pet shop ones are inbred and not such good mums often. Once you find females with a good temperament breed, breed, breed. Often they will bring up better pups with a more amiable temperament that are easier to handle from a young age all the best with your mouse breeding project it sounds like you are off to a good start despite Dude.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2014 8:27:15 GMT -5
Just saw the pic of your pups - they are so cute I love them at the toddler stage they are little furry bouncy bundles of cheekiness. Any time now they will be running about their cage annoying mum and eat and drinking lots ~ Nice mouse colours
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2014 8:45:50 GMT -5
@ninjagoth Thanks! You're right, they're very good colors! Lots of variation there!
In regards to inbreeding, how big of a concern is and what is the best course of action to take in regards to preventing it? Even if I have 4 breeding groups, which I think is my max., I would only have 4 bucks total, and therefore I'd only have 12 possible pairs by generation 2 and even fewer as the generations wore on. I'm sure that breeding relatives several generations apart isn't as big a deal as siblings or parents breeding, but what should my goal be with that? I'm not sure how much it matters with mice. Do I need to keep bringing in new mice to keep the lines clean?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2014 9:30:44 GMT -5
hi Inbreeding is not too much of a worry with mice you can do 10-20 generations of brother sister matings before you would see major issues such as smaller litters, smaller mice, more runts or the odd physical weirdness. Depending on how fast you are breeding maybe bring in a fresh buck once every 1-2 years to keep variety up. mainly with mice if you always chose nice healthy parents and maximise breeding from your best females that have healthy litters then you should be fine. mice are pretty good at just getting on and breeding they are little mouse producing factories in a way if only all animals bred as easily. One other thing I just remembered when breeding mice which is quite useful in reducing aggression when introducing males and females. Add the females to the male's cage or put them in a totally cleaned out cage together with a little sprinkle of only the male's bedding. I don't know why but it tends to work. Also if you are wanting to control the matings more and only want to put the females to the male to mate them then separate the males out then 2-5 days before you put the females to a particular male take a sprinkle of the males substrate/shavings and put some of it in the females cage each day. the smell of the male will induce the females to cycle together then put the females in with the male for mating and they should all get mated that day or within a few days of each other. Don't know if you are aware you can tell if mice are in oestrus and ready for a male when their vulva is pink, moist and swollen, if you put a female to a male in the late afternoon you have about a higher than 90% chance of a positive mate. I cannot find a decent web pic of this or I would include a link. Also a way to check if a mating has occurred is to check the vaginal opening of the female after being in with the male each day. If it has happened the female will be 'plugged' with a white waxy substance which blocks her up. because mice live communally it is natures way of ensuring that the male's sperm stays put for a while to increase the chance of pregnancy and prevents other males mating with her mean time. these plugs can stay in for several days after mating but eventually fall out 3-5 days after mating. normally the sign of this plug means the female should become pregnant though it is not always the case. obviously you have to have mice you can handle well prior to checking for females being in oestrus or for plugs - otherwise you may have an unhappy mouse on your hands sorry i tend to ramble a bit when talking about animals. hope this info helps
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2014 9:36:25 GMT -5
@ninjagoth You're awesome, thanks so much for the information! I had no idea about the intricacies of their mating habits, so now I have something to look out for with my groups when trying to see if anyone has been mated or may become pregnant. I will try with throwing the male's bedding in with my females before mating occurs and see how they do. Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2014 9:43:18 GMT -5
All the best - I have bred my own pet mice in the past and worked for several years breeding mice. I am no good with any other animals for breeding but just the mousies If you have probs with littering difficulties (quite rare in mice but does occur when you breed long enough) give me a shout and I will do what I can to help. Also pretty good with runts, runty litters or fostering litters when mum is dead or has to be PTS etc. You name it I have dealt with it when breeding mice lol Glad to help in any way I can.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2014 9:45:47 GMT -5
alyse, I loved the pictures. They are really cute little babies and have such pretty colors. When I was little, we had mice, hamsters and Guinea pigs. I'm rather fond of them and I guess that's why we haven't moved to whole prey.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2014 9:54:04 GMT -5
@poncesmom Aww, I know what you mean! I hate to think of them sufferring, even if I am breeding them for food. I will always be as humane as possible with them, and that's why I feel a little better about feeding them. They are so cute though, aren't they?
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