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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 11:48:22 GMT -5
gfountain, I think maybe he does just need more time to adjust (although, it has been over 5 weeks since I pulled their kibble) to the raw. I was happy I saw him have a brown poop yesterday, but makes me scratch my head Now I'm *worried* about little pepekins ( Pepper). Thankfully the tooth grinding thing she was doing is gone and I could not see anything in her mouth. I made sure I watched her eat last night and this morning (she looks like she has lost a little more weight but I did not weigh her just yet. I'm thinking maybe she is loosing the 'fat' from kibble and developing muscle?) She ate very well, probably close to 2oz last night and 2-3oz this morning! She played so well last night! It was great! To sum up my rambling....... I think everyone is okay. I think I do worry so much because this is my first time being a ferrent so some things are still very new. (We got our first, Zoey, 11/11/11 and the pet store said "ferrets are just like cats but they sleep in a hammock"-ha, big surprise for us when we get her home and she started making the weird noise! Speaking of Zoey, she was in a dead sleep (ugh, I still get nervous when they do that!) so I scooped her up and put her in my lap. I massaged her hands and feet for a while then put her on my chest and layed down. She stayed like that for over 45 minutes! (Swoon!) It's so rare for all 5 to be calm enough for cuddles so I'll take what I can get (usually the longest they stay still is when they have salmon oil on their tummies for 'baby manicure' time Ahh, love dem babies!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 11:57:55 GMT -5
Thank you @poncesmom - I remembered Jason talking about her (Wilma I think) having an allergy but I have not read too much about it.
I have looked at the poop chart 100's of times and his, and now Pepper's, poop doesn't look exactly like the parasite one......but the color is similar. But if it was parasites, wouldn't all 5 have it?? I will definitely do some more reading about the bacterial infections.....
I have a weight log, but I think I will start a little journal. I really like that idea, thank you!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 14:13:15 GMT -5
Happily, parasites are rather uncommon in ferrets. That doesn't mean it can't happen, but I would think you are right and all five would show signs.
I would make a vet visit and try a course of antibiotics. I know it's the Holidays and no one needs to spend any extra money. Since this has been going on for awhile, I would try the antibiotics first and then if that doesn't help, we could work on an elimination diet.
Diarrhea is rather rough on them and the sooner it gets cleared up, the better.
Oh and I'm so jealous, Zoey gave you 45 minutes of snuggling. Heavenly....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 14:46:09 GMT -5
Wow, so I read through Jason's journey with Wilma-my heart just broke for them (and little socks too). Everytime he thought he found the culprit and it was not that, I really felt for him-and I'm sure anyone who read that thread could feel it too! I very much hope I do not have to experience that but I thank Jason for putting it out there to educate everyone. I'm so glad little Wilma is doing better
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 14:50:48 GMT -5
Thank you @poncesmom! Is there a particular antibiotic I should ask for?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 15:04:35 GMT -5
I don't know enough to offer a suggestion on antibiotics. Ponce was on Baytril and had problems with it, so we moved him to Clavamox. Roamy had Clavamox and was fine with that. But, I honestly can't suggest an antibiotic, your vet will know better based on the bacteria. Here is a good link, with a discussion on antibiotics: holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/10935/byatril-antibiotic-ferret-wirh-ibd
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2014 15:37:56 GMT -5
Thank you so very much! You have offered such great advice along with some great links; I really appreciate it! I'll put a call into my vet (the only problem is I can usually only get in on Saturdays with my work hours and theirs) and see what she wants to do. I hope she doesn't mind I went to a different vet last week and got him on lupron... (shrug) Zekrom was on bayril last year. Once a day for 3 WEEKS! Ugh, my poor baby. The first time I gave it, he licked the syringe. The second time, he got about half the dose before giving me a dirty look and walking away. So, I had to mix it with babyfood... but he licked the plate clean every time Gosh, he really is a good boy. Hard to imagine he used to be a severe biter (we got him from Craigslist because the 'kids were allergic'. They said they gave him a bath every 5 days but it didn't help the smell... for the month they had him (smh)...he gives kisses now if you ask nicely!) (note to self, get pictures on here!)
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Post by gfountain on Dec 4, 2014 16:10:01 GMT -5
If it's only parasites that you're concerned about, you could ask about just dropping off a poop sample. I can drop off a sample in the morning, the vet will do a fecal for me & call with the results, usually before noon. I like the price too! Just the cost of the test and meds if they need it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2014 13:34:45 GMT -5
Thank you gfountain-I like that idea! I did not see anyone poop last night, but saw a few of those "white" poops in the cage...ugh...I'll need to do something (vet) before I pull my hair out :/ I'm excited to go to the oriental market tomorrow! I will be getting more hearts (I'll have to see if they have something else besides chicken-but I'll get chicken hearts too) and I want them to try quail. Depending on the price, it might be a once in a while thing-but excited for them to try it (might wait a week or so since they are trying pork right now). If they have the pork brains, I'll get that too (hehe, my husband will not be happy). I think I'll pick up quail eggs too and see what they think of those. I hope they have something else funky (organ wise) to try. I want to do a menu, but I'm not sure how much to do (weight wise). I have seen Reshiram eat 4 oz of soup in one sitting one day- and then only half an oz twice a day. Zoey likes to snack and I think Elvyra is trying to do that too but man does she, Elvyra, LOVES to sleep! I need to record her waking up-so so cute! She takes about 5 minutes to fully wake up Zekrom likes to eat about 2oz and go play, then come back and eat another ounce. Pepper, just depends what's being served and how long since she last ate. Speaking of Pepper......I offered CGH 'bites' (bone-in) and pork bites (muscle meat). I did drizzle some salmon oil over the pork and who goes to the plate and start munching? Pepper! And then Reshiram went to join her! So, obviously they knew I would cave and give them soup if they waited long enough...bad babies I guess what I really need the most help with the, would be the organs. I'm scared to do too much liver, but I also don't want them to be lacking anything. I can do separate plates maybe? Someone is usually sharing despite everyone having their own. I just want to make sure everyone is balanced.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2014 14:26:59 GMT -5
I'm excited to go to the oriental market tomorrow! I will be getting more hearts (I'll have to see if they have something else besides chicken-
Ferret shopping is so much fun. You can look for duck hearts or pork heart, plus the chicken hearts.
I want to do a menu, but I'm not sure how much to do (weight wise). I
The average boy eats 3-4 ounces a day, the average girl eats 2 ounces. A tummy with teeth will eat more. Go ahead and post a menu and we can help tweak it. Over time, you will get a feel for how much to put out and the difference between Spring and Winter appetites. I tend to put out more than they need. I have a huge need to feed. That comes from having a son with physiological Anorexia. I'd rather waste a little than worry that they don't have enough. So, figure out the amounts based on boys and girls average intake and if the bowl is empty, than add some more. Someone is either stashing or they could eat a little more.
I guess what I really need the most help with the, would be the organs.
I like to do the first Organ meal with chicken livers and pork brains. Then the second Organ meal is usually chicken livers plus pork kidney slices and heart slices. Either, duck hearts or pork hearts. I haven't found thymus yet, so my organs are usually chicken/pork or duck liver I buy pork spleen and kidney. I've tried beef liver/kidney and spleen but beef is too strong a flavor and mine don't like the beef organs.
Remember with liver, it should only be 5 percent of their weekly intake. The other organ will be five percent and Heart will be ten percent, per ferret, per week. It's hard for that to be an exact science, but you will get better over time and more comfortable as you watch what is eaten and who eats what. You might find that one wants to scarf up all the hearts and one doesn't like liver, but watch them and you will get it figured out.
The Organs to avoid are tripe and intestines. Untouched tripe is green and smelly. Ferrets avoid it and it offers very little nutrition. The intestines are nutritionally low, so don't bother with them.
You might find better success (I did), choosing just one Other Organ and let them get use to it. Pork brains and kidney are a good, mild first choice. You can experiment with others as they get use to eating all these new foods.
I can do separate plates maybe?
You can do separate plates. Mine rarely eat at the same time, so I just watch them closely. Mika likes to eat in the middle of the night, so she's my problem child. I buy FDR hearts as a foraging treats and so I know that they all get enough taurine. I also will buy FDR pure liver and offer that as a treat on liver day. I do that if I see that they didn't eat well that organ day.
You're doing so well so far. :thumbsup:
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2014 14:39:41 GMT -5
Thanks @poncesmom! This is what I was thinking......I made a spreadsheet and copied it in here (hence the CAPS lock) The parts where it says 1/2 ("1/2 liver/organ") should I try 5oz (1oz per ferret)? SUNDAY AM 1/2 LIVER 1/2 ORGAN (PORKBRAIN) SUNDAY PM BONE-IN CGH MONDAY AM MUSCLE MEAT PORK MONDAY PM BONE-IN CGH TUESDAY AM HEART TUESDAY PM BONE-IN CHICKEN WING WEDNESDAY AM MUSCLE MEAT PORK WEDNESDAY PM BONE-IN CGH THURSDAY AM HEART& 1/2 LIVER 1/2 ORGAN (PORKBRAIN) THURSDAY PM BONE-IN CHICKEN WING FRIDAY AM BONE-IN CGH FRIDAY PM BONE-IN CGH SATURDAY AM MUSCLE MEAT GIZZARDS SATURDAY PM BONE-IN CHICKEN LEG
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2014 14:48:48 GMT -5
That's a very good menu. You have four proteins 8 meals of Bone In 4 Muscle meats including a meal of Hearts. A gizzard meal is wonderful. Then you have your two meals of Liver plus another organ and the second Organ meal includes a half meal of Heart. Most Excellent. :boing:
My only tweak is the chicken leg. Some ferrets can easily handle a leg, some will need some help. Remember, the definition of bone in is the Non Weight bearing bones. Like I said though, alot of ferrets will handle that well. Yours are new to bone, so smash it up some.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2014 15:00:00 GMT -5
@poncesmom , Thank you so much!! I have a few chicken backs in the freezer....could that be bone in? I got them so long ago (they might have still been on kibble with just soupies at night) I don't remember how much meat is on them. If they are kinda bare, I could always put some meat chunks on the plate? I was thinking about smashing the leg with a hammer...while I was typing the menu, I was trying to think of what I could buy and then use (I was thinking about buying a chicken fryer...cause then I could get the neck) Oh, what about chicken thighs? I usually just cut the meat off and give the bones to my parents (they have 2 dogs)...could I smash the thigh bones?
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Post by gfountain on Dec 5, 2014 15:06:18 GMT -5
How much food to serve is hard for multiple ferrets. I had amounts figured out to within 1/4 ounce when I only had 2 fuzzies, but with the 2 new ones, I'm having to guess a lot still. I've been really bad about keeping up with the food journal since the boys came home. If I had been keeping better records, I'd probably have them figured out by now. (Note to self: KEEP RECORDS!!! (headwall) )
I'm always afraid someone will be a piggie and someone else will go hungry so my strategy is to keep something in the dishes at all times. They get fed before work in the morning. My husband is usually home in the middle of the day; if the dishes are empty, he'll feed them. If I come home from work and the dishes are empty, they get more food. If they eat all of that by bedtime, they get more. Sometimes they'll get fed twice a day, sometimes 4 times, occasionally only once if they decide not to eat much on that day. This might not be of any help to you and may only confuse you further, but here's how I do that and still keep everything balanced. Warning: I tend to get long-winded, lol.
When I bring home meat from the store, I chop everything into manageable chunks, chunks that are easy to hang and easy for them to eat. I label and stuff snack size baggies. Each baggie has approximately 7-8 ounces of only one kind of meat (example: turkey wing, chicken back, CGH, duck, pork heart, etc.) with the exception of organs. Organs are packaged half liver/half lung or kidney or whatever I have. Then I sort them into bins in a large freezer - bone-in, muscle, heart, organ. So I ALWAYS have ready-to-serve meals in that freezer, which is NOT handy for day-to-day serving. The meals that I'm going to serve each week I keep in the door of my kitchen freezer in 3 containers labeled bone, muscle, heart/organ. Now this is where it gets a little confusing, lol. I used to always pull out meals for a week, exactly the way we teach to do it: 1.5 meals each of heart and organ, 7-9 meals of bone-in, the rest muscle. Now though, since I don't know exactly how much they eat, I pull out meals in multiples of 10, usually 20 meals because that's all that will fit in my freezer door. The ratio of organ:heart:bone-in:muscle is approximately 10:10:65:15, which means that for every 10 meals you serve, you need 1 organ meal, 1 heart meal, 6.5 bone-in meals, and 1.5 muscle meals. So for 20 meals I multiply everything by 2: 2 meals of mixed organ, 2 meals of heart, 13 meals of bone-in, 3 meals of muscle meat. As long as they eat everything in my kitchen freezer, those 20 meals are balanced regardless of how long it takes them to eat it. I've had them eat those 20 meals in 7 days and I've had them last for 10 or 11 days. It just depends on how hungry everyone is on any given day.
And before you ask, I can NOT be sure that everyone is eating exactly the right proportions of everything all the time. But I know my ferrets' habits and I watch to make sure they're all eating at least a little bit of everything. For example, I know that Leon doesn't like liver, so when they have an organ meal I hand-feed him some of the liver to make sure he gets some. I know that Slinkee is a lazy bone-cruncher, so when they have a heavy bone meal I make sure I see him eating some bone; if I haven't seen him eating any bone, they get more bone for the next meal when I'm sure he'll be good and hungry. And I just don't worry about it (easier said than done, I know). If they were in the wild, they wouldn't have a worrywart mommee standing over them saying 'eat this liver, and now eat these bones'. They would eat the parts they like and leave the parts they don't.
Now what I NEED to do (and maybe typing all this out will encourage me to do this) is weigh all their food before I serve it and weigh whatever is left over at the end of 24 hours. If I do that every day for a week or so, I can average those amounts together and get a pretty good idea of EXACTLY how much they're eating in a day. Then when I portion their meats, I could put in exactly what they need for one meal and go back to serving only 2 meals a day and pulling out the 14 meals/week. That would also tell me how many ounces of organ and heart they need per week. As it is, I know their meals are balanced but I can only approximate how many ounces of each thing they're eating.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2014 15:14:23 GMT -5
@poncesmom , Thank you so much!! I have a few chicken backs in the freezer....could that be bone in? I got them so long ago (they might have still been on kibble with just soupies at night) I don't remember how much meat is on them. If they are kinda bare, I could always put some meat chunks on the plate? I was thinking about smashing the leg with a hammer...while I was typing the menu, I was trying to think of what I could buy and then use (I was thinking about buying a chicken fryer...cause then I could get the neck) Oh, what about chicken thighs? I usually just cut the meat off and give the bones to my parents (they have 2 dogs)...could I smash the thigh bones? I know Heather feeds the whole chicken, backs and all. You could add some meat and smash the backs up some. I usually don't feed the backs. But like I said, I have rather lazy bone eaters and while they eat most bone well, I'm pushing it with backs and necks. Thighs would be weight bearing, but my Mentee Dani has two boys who happily eat thighs. In the beginning, you will have to smash some to help them get started. I tend to stick to the easier bones, chicken wings, quail and cornish game hen.
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