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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 10:50:36 GMT -5
Thank you so much! Another reason for me to plan ahead-they love pork! Absolutely love it, but I don't have any in the freezer so I completely forgot about it! (face palm) Thank you for the breakdown of the liver/organ meal + hearts. I felt like I didn't have the ratio correct, but wasn't sure how it was wrong either Oh, and yes the percentages make sense, but I get confused all the time it seems While we're talking organs and heart...I want to make sure I'm doing this part right also (and I hope this makes sense...) When I put their 'meals' in containers, I usually do 6-8oz. So, when they have quail, cgh, pork, heart, organ meal (I do 4oz liver and 4oz organ (this week was pork kidney) for a total 'meal' of 8oz). Their 'meal' of chicken hearts was 4oz this week and I noticed the plate was cleaned so I upped it (CGH for example) to 6-8 oz. So I guess my question(s): Between the 5 ferrets, that's close to what they eat each sitting (am & pm). But for the heart and organ meals, is it correct to still have total 6-8oz each sitting? I was thinking because they have 1 1/2 meals of heart and 1 1/2 meals of liver+organ...then with their 7-9 bone-in meals and 2-4 muscle meat meals... that they are getting the correct balance? (I always second guess myself and as I was reading through a couple switching threads, I started to worry that I was giving them too much or even too little?) Starting Sunday, I will type up/or hand write out their weekly menu so I don't give the same thing 3 meals in a row But since today is Thursday, I can make a couple changes that you mentioned Steph ; Sunday AM: Chicken Gizzard slivers (Muscle Meat) Sunday PM: Chicken Gizzard slivers (Muscle Meat) Monday AM: 1/2 chicken Liver 1/2 pork Kidney (Organ) Monday PM: Quail (Bone-In) Tuesday AM:Quail (Bone-In) Tuesday PM: Quail (Bone-In) Wednesday AM: Chicken Heart (Heart) Wednesday PM: Cornish Game Hen (Bone-In) Thursday AM:Cornish Game Hen (Bone-In) Thursday PM: Duck Neck (Bone-In) Friday AM: 1/2 meal chicken Heart + 1/2 Organ Meal [1/4 Chicken Liver 1/4 pork brain](Heart+Organ) Friday PM: Cornish Game Hen (Bone-In) Saturday AM: Pork (Muscle Meat) Saturday PM: Duck Neck (Bone-In) -------------------------------- Game Plan for next week: Sunday AM: Pork (Muscle Meat) Sunday PM: Quail (Bone-In) Monday AM: 1/2 chicken Liver 1/2 pork brain (Organ) Monday PM: Quail (Bone-In) Tuesday AM: Beef (Muscle Meat) Tuesday PM: Cornish Game Hen (Bone-In) Wednesday AM: Chicken Heart (Heart) Wednesday PM: Cornish Game Hen (Bone-In) Thursday AM: Beef (Muscle Meat) Thursday PM: Quail (Bone-In) Friday AM: 1/2 meal chicken Heart + 1/2 Organ Meal [1/4 Chicken Liver 1/4 pork brain](Heart+Organ) Friday PM: Cornish Game Hen (Bone-In) Saturday AM: Pork (Muscle Meat) Saturday PM: Duck Neck (Bone-In) I like this one How does this one look??
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 12:09:10 GMT -5
Hurricanekatt was my Mentor and this is how she explained Organ meals to me. I think her explanation is easy to follow and will help you: Liver is five percent based on 14 meals consumed in a week, which makes 3/4 of a meal of liver The Other organ is five percent based on 14 meals consumed in a week, which makes 3/4 meal of liver. Here's how Katt explains it: Assuming a 2 meal a day system: 10% heart = 1.5 meals 10% organ (at least half liver) = 1.5 meals* 7-9 bone-in meals (containing significant amounts of edible bone)
RE the organ, you can mix and match the 1.5 meals in multiple ways, here are a few examples. [As a note too, a "meal" is all food eaten in a roughly 12 hour period. So am meal is breakfast and everything eaten during the day, pm is dinner and everything eaten overnight.]
Example 1: Day 1: am: Liver pm: Half Other (brain, kidney, etc), Half Heart
Day 2: am: Heart pm: bone-in meal
Example 2: Day 1: am: Half Liver, Half Other organs pm: Half Liver, Half Heart
Day 2: am: Heart pm: bone-in meal
Example 3: Day 1: am: Organ Mix* pm: Half Organ-Mix, Half Heart
Day 2: am: Heart pm: Bone-in meal
*Organ Mix = a "mix" you make up yourself that is half liver half other organs.
Of course you probably won't want to feed all of the heart and organ meals one after the other (my boys do well with it, but many ferrets don't), so you'd want to spread those meals out, but I wanted to give you a few examples to start thinking of how you can structure your final menu. I find that it works best for the half meal to use heart and organs for a few reasons... 1.) Heart and Organs both require 1.5 meals, so it just makes sense to combine the 2 half meals 2.) Many ferrets will pick out their favorite parts, so it is hard to ensure they are getting the right balance if you say do a meal of half liver and half muscle meat - one ferret might eat all of the liver, while another might avoid the liver in favor of the other meat. 3.) With #2 in mind, heart and organs are a lot more similar to each other in taste and texture than compared to muscle meats, so I find that mixing them up together ferrets are less likely to pick out one or the other.
As long as the balance is met and you can ensure they are all eating all of the parts that they need though, you can mix and match things however you please. My reasons for now for the half brain soup in adding whatever you want for the second half instead of heart specifically, is right now the focus is just to get them to eat the brains, and a meat they like better than hearts may be more effective for that. If you want to just use heart though and use hand feeding and such to convince them to eat a half heart, half brains soup then go for it.
Next weeks menu has: Five meals of Muscle meats: Remember Heart is a Muscle Meat Sun: pork Tues: beef Wed: Heart...that's perfect Thurs: beef Sat: Pork That's one more than you need. You want 3-4 meals of Muscle meat You have six meals of Bone In: Sunday: Quail Tuesday: CGH Wed: CGH Thurs: Quail Fri: CGH Sat: Duck neck You are at the low end of bone. Replace one muscle meat meal with a bone in meal Organs: Monday: 1/2 chicken liver plus 1/2 pork brain. That's perfect Friday: 1/2 chicken heart plus 1/4 chicken liver plus 1/4 pork brain. That's perfect. So, you're on the right path. You have a very nice variety of proteins. Simply remove one muscle meat and replace it with one bone in meal. If you prefer more Bone In, replace two muscle meats and replace them with two Bone In meals: You can build your menu on what works for you and what you find at the market. As a reminder, Heather is looking for: a nice variety of proteins 7-9 meals of Bone In 3-4 meals of Muscle meat. Keeping in mind that Heart is a Muscle meat 1 organ meal of Liver plus another organ 1 meal of Liver plus another organ plus the Half meal of Heart. I had a hard time with the whole organ thing. I'm not a numbers girl. I finally simply bought a white board, put it on my fridge, with their required Bone in/muscle meats and organ meals. It still there and I look at it every day. Very Nice Job! When you build your menu on Sunday, I'll forward it to Heather and we should get you graduated and your status changed to Raw Feeder. (dance)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 14:56:31 GMT -5
Grr, I knew heart was a muscle meat last week Ugh, at least I usually learn from my mistakes I'm going to continue reading about the organs and liver. For some reason when I read it, it makes total sense; but then I'll try to explain it or write it down and everything gets jumbled together. Gotta study I suppose I made a great spreadsheet with a bunch of different proteins (bone-in AND muscle meats) which is hanging on the fridge-I'll take a look at that tonight for some inspiration/ideas So tonight will be the first attempt of duck neck since the ER visit back in December-I think I'm finally ready :/ Tonight will also be weigh-in's! Thank you again so very much!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 14:07:39 GMT -5
I forgot there was about 5oz of CGH left in the fridge so the kids got that last night along with organ and heart soup-who knew pork brains were so delicious?? haha, granted the babies have not had soup in weeks but I was shocked how everyone licked all the bowls clean!?! My goodness do they make my heart dance! (sweet babies!) Can I give them more than the 8oz of organ meals? I did 4oz chicken heart, 2oz chicken liver, and 2oz pork brain (and I little water to mix) and it seemed like they could still eat (so I did give them gizzard slivers) and I felt bad not having more soup for them Or should I stick with that-the 8oz of the organ/heart meal and if they are still hungry have something to "snack" on? (for snacks I give them chicken gizzard slivers since I had like 5 packages of the tyson hearts/gizzards in the freezer. And this was actually the 2nd time for a snack) I certainly don't want to mess with the balance-maybe I should start weighing out 10oz of everything? Weigh-In's.......drumroll....... (hehe) Zoey and Zekrom both gained this week! Zoey was 1lb 13oz, Zekrom was 2lbs 14oz, Pepper is still just 2lbs even, Elvyra was the same at 1lb 13oz, and Reshiram was still 3lbs even (although I'm tempted to weigh him when I get home since he was the biggest piglet with the soup!) I usually snuggle and smooch the babies before I leave for work and this morning Reshiram was not being a wiggle worm so I got to kiss on him a little longer-his neck smelled so sweet! I thought maybe grape kool-aid...but it was not a strong grape smell, but a very strong sweet smell?!! I told Tom to smell his neck and he said "ha, he does smell sweet! He's weird, Reshie why do you smell sweet?" so I responded with, "Reshie's weird? You just asked him a question!" We'll be going to the Oriental Market this weekend for more hearts, quail, and hopefully some other fun finds! I looked at the list of different proteins and I had frog legs on there! I also had goat listed...not quite sure if/where I'll find those, but I'm gonna look! Definitely going to pick up pork and some 'cheap' beef. Maybe I'll get a couple pinkies and fuzzies (mice) and try those out....hmmm....we'll see Haha, Life is good!!!!!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 16:58:49 GMT -5
who knew pork brains were so delicious?They sure are yucky to touch, but mine absolutely love them. I was so happy that our local market carried them and then suddenly they have stopped. Now, I have to go in search of a new source. Can I give them more than the 8oz of organ meals?This is where percentages come in. You have three girls and two boys, right? So, assuming that the boys eat 3 ounces a day and the girls eat 2 ounces a day, times seven meals, that is Ninety one ounces a week, that your five eat. Ten percent of Heart divided by the five is 9.1 ounces of heart for the week. We don't worry about too much taurine. It's water soluable and is eliminated daily. Five percent of the 91 ounces is 4.5 ounces divided by the five ferrents for the week. The other organ is the same at 4.5 ounces divided by the five ferrents for the week. Then to make that a little more complicated, the boys eat a little more and the girls eat a little less. And then, keep in mind that they are getting two organ meals a week. Liver will build up in their system. It's full of vitamin A and is not eliminated daily. So, we want to keep to the percentages of Liver. So, if you find that they are still hungry after an organ meal, I would offer something like a muscle meat or Bone In meal and keep to the organ percentages. gfountain is a teacher and a great Mentor. She has a very easy way to explain things and I want her to confirm my numbers, to help make this easier for you. I've tagged her. She's been fighting a veritable plethora of illness, so if she doesn't respond, I'll tag another Mentor. I usually snuggle and smooch the babies before I leave for work and this morning Reshiram was not being a wiggle worm so I got to kiss on him a little longer-his neck smelled so sweet! I thought maybe grape kool-aid...but it was not a strong grape smell, but a very strong sweet smell?!! I told Tom to smell his neck and he said "ha, he does smell sweet! He's weird, Reshie why do you smell sweet?" so I responded with, "Reshie's weird? You just asked him a question!"
How funny. I love that Tom is such a good sport. Tell him that we keep catching ourselves talking to our little deaf girl, Keller. We make all the funny noises, call her and give her tons of sweet talk. Then we look at each other and just shrug. (shy) Have fun at the Market. We're going also. Ferret shopping is so much more fun than shopping for us. :wave2:
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Post by gfountain on Jan 23, 2015 18:50:48 GMT -5
Hi! I've been trying to keep up with your switch, but I've gotten behind. I'm not caught up with everything, just checking the math for you. These numbers are assuming that the boys each eat 3 oz per day and the girls eat 2 oz. If that is not correct, just plug in the right numbers and re figure. Or holler at me and I can redo it for you.
3 girls @ 2 oz each per day = 6oz 2 boys @ 3 oz each per day = 6 oz Total per day = 12 oz x 7 days per week = 84 oz
10% heart = 8.4 oz 10% organ = 8.4 oz - HALF of this should be liver, half another organ, so.. Liver should be 4.2 oz per week, and 4.2 oz should be some other kind of organ.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 10:35:14 GMT -5
Thank you ladies! I'll re read those numbers and probably try writing then down in a menu format We're on our way to a tournament but I wanted to check in. After last night, I've decided to take necks off the menu for a while if not indefinitely I smashed and chopped up the 2 ducks I had left with the clever. The 2 necks came out to 7 oz and put the plate in their cage. Elvyra was the first to the plate and started chewing away! Zekrom came over, sniffed the plate then ran downstairs and had liquid diarrhea (not sure if it was the organ meal from the morning or if that could have triggered his memory from the bone being stuck in his mouth?). As I was preparing our dinner (human), I just kept watching Elvyra and then she stopped chewing. She started pacing and trying to paw her mouth I tried to remain calm but my heart was racing. (I thought great, why does this happen! I thought I read that other ferrets love necks and they are easy bone in meats?) I told her she was okay and scooped her up and set her on my coat so her feet were touching something. I scruffed her, opened her mouth, and a huge piece was stuck on the tooth behind her bottom fang. I pulled it off pretty easily and with it came a long drool poor thing. I just held her and she kept licking my fingers (I was still holding the bone). I'm *sure* she ate since, but I have not seen her eat-I'm hoping her little tooth is ok. P.S. She smells like corn chips
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 11:23:51 GMT -5
Have fun at your tournament.
It's scarey when a piece of bone gets stuck. I'm glad that you were there to help her. It does happen though, and hopefully, she will forget it and keep working on her bones.
Thanks again, Gina.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2015 13:34:13 GMT -5
The tournament was pretty good but long so I'm glad to be home. I was able to get a "frozen rabbit" for $4.19/lb (is that a good price?) So I'm excited to see how the babies like rabbit! I also got 2 packages (6 pack each) of quail, 1 pork liver and 1 pork heart plus 3.35lbs of chicken hearts. I also grabbed a package of Tyson chicken wings from the grocery store so they will have that for dinner. They had London broil for breakfast (forgot I had that in the freezer) and once salmon oil was drizzled on top, they had no problem eating it I'll post my menu tomorrow (I'm on my phone right now). I think it'll be a great week for them-new stuff and a nice variety!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 14:30:45 GMT -5
Sunday AM: Beef (MM) Sunday PM: Chicken Wing (BI) Monday AM: 1/2 Chicken Liver & 1/2 Pork Brain (organ meal) Monday PM: Chicken Wing (BI) Tuesday AM: Chicken Wing (BI) Tuesday PM: Pork (MM) Wednesday AM: Rabbit (BI) Wednesday PM: Rabbit (BI) Thursday AM: Chicken Heart (MM) Thursday PM: Quail (BI) Friday AM: 1/2 meal of Chicken Heart+1/2 organ meal (1/4 chicken Liver+1/4 pork brain) Friday PM: Quail (BI) Saturday AM: Quail (BI) Saturday PM:Cornish Game Hen (BI)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 14:40:09 GMT -5
@poncesmom , Steph there's the menu! Tell me what you think! Also, the 1/2 meal of heart plus 1/2 organ meal; is that a muscle meat meal (counting in the 2-4 muscle meats per week) or is that separate? gfountain , Gina thank you so very much for the math formula/breakdown! I read it, then read it again, then I wrote it down 3-4 times and I *think* I get it-but wanted to ask you.... Since they should have 8.4 oz of Heart, 4.2 oz liver, and 4.2 oz another organ per week...would it break down like this?: Meal of heart = 5.6oz heart Organ meal (half liver-half organ)= 2.8oz liver + 2.8oz organ 1/2 meal of heart and 1/2 organ meal = 2.8oz(heart) + 1.4oz liver and 1.4oz organ (who knew planning a menu could be such a science??)
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Post by gfountain on Jan 26, 2015 14:46:47 GMT -5
Yep, but those numbers are based on the average amount ferrets eat. Yours may eat more or less, depending on the ferret and on the season and on how hungry they are and on how much they like that particular meal.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 14:57:11 GMT -5
Hmm, it does seem like the girls eat around 2oz and the boys 3oz per day; on average at least. Sometimes they will eat more one day and less another time-doesn't seem consistent though. Is that okay to keep with those numbers until their appetites really change? I guess what I'm trying to say is, will that amount of liver and organ hurt them if someone is eating more/less than the others?
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Post by gfountain on Jan 26, 2015 21:32:16 GMT -5
Yep, those amounts are fine unless their intake changes drastically. You have to remember that raw feeding is not an exact science. We get as close as we can, and trust that we're doing the best we can. Think about the wild ferrets...they don't have little scales out there to weigh their food on, and I guarantee that they're not going to pass up some yummy heart or liver because they've already eaten their quota for that week. Even if they're eating whole prey, the size of organs/hearts in 2 animals of the same size and same species can vary tremendously. I have a hunter friend who killed a bunch of turkeys last year. He brought me all of their hearts. These turkeys were all about the same size and age, but their hearts ranged in size from golf ball size to softball size. So don't stress over it too much. Give them their 1.5 meals of each and try not to worry about it. (Easier said than done, I know.)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2015 11:47:25 GMT -5
I'm sorry that it took me so long to get back to you. Yesterday, we took the day off and went ferret shopping and then treated ourselves to a nice long lunch and a movie. It was snowing and just so beautiful. I'm a Florida girl and will probably never get over the thrill of seeing snow.
Your menu looks excellent. Nice job. I'm glad that I had Gina check the math. I had figured it backwards, with the opposite number of girls and boys, and then didn't correct it. Numbers and I just don't get along. Gina is a great teacher and I love how she makes everything so easy and clear to understand. Teaching is a true gift.
I'm going to forward your menu to Heather. We should hear back in the next day or two, and then we'll get your status changed.
:wave2:
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