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Post by gfountain on May 27, 2014 10:22:58 GMT -5
If he doesn't eat the wingtip that way, take the next section and smash it up with your hammer. Smash it pretty thoroughly and then cut it into whatever size he's eating now. We'll work up from there. But it won't hurt to try the whole tip.. maybe you'll be lucky. And if for now you can only get the mice and chicken from your planned menu, you need to consider using another grocery store meat temporarily.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2014 17:09:54 GMT -5
Okay, he didn't eat much of the soup/heart mixture this morning. Not surprising after eating 4oz yesterday. I'd also guess that he's not interested in the soup mixture after having chunks. He seems to really like the chunks of chicken. I am very tempted to give him larger chunks of chicken for the time being, get him used to chewing those more, and THEN try new stuff - BUT I've never done this before so I'm taking your word for it. Today we got a pound of chicken liver, two cornish game hens, and (!!!) a pack of four quails??!! They didn't have this last time we went! Wooooo QUAILS! So, this accounts for 3 proteins (quail, chicken, and mice... CGH would be a 4th protein if you count it separately from chicken... do you?) However we have not been able to find any organ other than heart and liver (and gizzards, which you said are a muscle meat) even at the asian markets in the area. The lady at Walmart's deli section said it's against the USDA's regulations for those things to even come through their doors, and that she'd be surprised if I found them outside of a butcher. Do you have any suggestions? Okay, so I've managed to cut up the CGH wing into pieces about the size he was eating, and a few a little bigger, and I've also cut the liver about that big. Giving him an ounce of each so he has options in case he doesn't like one or the other. I also weighed him in today and he's gained a bit, he's at 2 lbs 14 oz. Activity levels are excellent and poops are looking good.
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Post by gfountain on May 27, 2014 21:24:29 GMT -5
Okay, he didn't eat much of the soup/heart mixture this morning. Not surprising after eating 4oz yesterday. They do have days when they don't eat so much, so don't worry about it. Also, he likes his chunks. I am very tempted to give him larger chunks of chicken for the time being, get him used to chewing those more, and THEN try new stuffYes, did I not say to start increasing the size of the chunks? I meant to tell you that, but don't remember if I did or not (& I can't see my last post). Increase the size of the chicken chunks, but also give little chunks of the new things. Once he's eating a variety of proteins and bones, you can start building a balanced menu, and each meal will consist of only one kind of meat, so for example, heart for breakfast, wing for dinner (or mouse). But to introduce new meats, especially organs, it's usually easier to sneak them in with something they're already eating. Today we got a pound of chicken liver, two cornish game hens, and (!!!) a pack of four quails??!! SCORE!!! Where did you find the quail? I can't find quail anywhere locally. CGH would be a 4th protein if you count it separately from chicken... do you?There seems to be some debate on this question. Everywhere I've seen CGH mentioned on the forum, it's considered a separate protein. HOWEVER, if you research CGH all it actually is, is a baby chicken. I've talked with a chicken farmer who actually sends CGH to market, and he said the term 'Cornish Game Hen' is used to denote the age at the time of butchering. But it's the same animal, that if left to grow another month, would be labeled 'young fryer'. So what do you think? According to forum 'rules', it's a separate protein, but I (and some others) disagree, and in my menu, I count it as chicken. any organ other than heart and liver (and gizzards, which you said are a muscle meat) Heart is NOT an organ. It is a muscle meat, same as gizzards, but with more taurine which is why it is specifically required in the menu. Organs are things that secrete something - liver, kidney, thymus, pancreas, brain. I get my organs (liver & kidney) from a butcher. Others find all kinds of organs at asian or hispanic markets. I'm surprised you didn't find any there. Did you check on a specific organ or just organs in general? You can also order organs online, or as a last resort you can get an organ supplement. BUT since you're headed for whole prey, the prey animals will be complete in themselves. So for now, unless I hear otherwise from someone more experienced (who I'm going to ask in just a minute), just stick with the liver. Okay, so I've managed to cut up the CGH wing into pieces about the size he was eating, and a few a little bigger, and I've also cut the liver about that big. Did you try giving him the whole wingtip? Giving him an ounce of each so he has options in case he doesn't like one or the other. Giving him options is fine right now, but eventually he will have to learn to like them both, because he NEEDS them both... that's the tricky part. Do you have any more pinkies or hoppers? Although neither are nutritionally complete and should be considered treats, you can try giving him one of those to see how he feels about it.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2014 22:15:38 GMT -5
(wave) Just going to get a quick reply in before bed. Hope graduation went well! Re: CGH vs. Chicken. Yeah I'm pretty sure they're the same thing, so I'll count them as one. The quails we found at an HEB. I think HEBs are Texas-only grocery stores, but think Walmart without non-grocery items. They're big. We did give him the whole wing tip... I'm sorry, I must have totally misunderstood when you said to start him with liver and the wing tips... I thought you meant to give him the liver separately and then, at another meal, give him larger chicken chunks. I'll mix them tomorrow for him, especially if he hasn't eaten the liver by tomorrow morning. We don't have hoppers anymore, just adult mice. We can pick more up later. Let me know what you think of this: Tomorrow (wednesday): AM: chicken chunks / liver chunks PM: chicken chunks / wing tips Thursday: AM: chicken chunks / wing tips PM: chicken chunks / wing tips (The plan is to increase wing tips so he's getting more exposure to bone-in.) Friday: AM: liver chunks / heart chunks PM: chicken chunks / adult mouse (chopped) (This will let us see if he's eating liver / heart without the chicken... and try him on the mouse.) From there, we can see if he'll eat a more whole mouse? I don't know what not to mix, so let me know if this needs adjusting. I'll let you know how he eats the wing and liver.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2014 9:56:35 GMT -5
Update: Ezzy ate quite a bit of the liver, and none of the wing. The chunks were too big for him, I'm sure. I spent some time cutting up some chicken chunks for him and mixed with the liver for the day.
Another question that isn't really entirely related to the switch... He's been eating his bedding. I don't know if this only happens when he gets hungry, or maybe when he's just bored (I don't see how with daily walks and hours of playtime, but I can understand that he is cooped up for 10+ hours at a time even still...) but I don't know what to do about it? He has a pillow that he has eaten the corners off of, the covers on his ramps he's chewed holes into... All of it is fleece. So far he's pooped out fabric a couple of times, other times I've found tears and chew holes in the fabric but nothing in his poops. When I notice it, I give him a 1/2 tsp of vasoline and watch for straining and healthy poops afterward... But this has only started since we began the switch. Maybe he's acting out against the diet change, or maybe he doesn't feel full enough? Not sure what to do for him. I don't feel that stripping his cage of fleece is an option...
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Post by gfountain on May 28, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Just going to get a quick reply in before bed. Hope graduation went well!Sorry, didn't see this until just now. Graduation is tomorrow night - I just WISH it was over! Ezzy ate quite a bit of the liver, OK, this is good. So there shouldn't be a problem with giving him a whole meal of either liver or heart. and none of the wing. Ugh, I had high hopes. OK, so that means we'll have to work on the bones. When you smash a bone with a hammer, it just kind of pulverizes inside the meat. So you'll want to smash and pulverize, then cut the meat/bone glob into pieces whatever size he's eating. And keep increasing the size of his chunks. When you feed the bone-in meat, JUST feed the bone-in meat. Ferrets will be lazy eaters if they can be, so don't give him the option of boneless meat. When it's time for bone-in, JUST give bone-in. Just make sure the bone is smashed enough for him to chew it. Then again, you'll gradually increase the bone size until he's crunching whole bones. Another question that isn't really entirely related to the switch... He's been eating his bedding. This could be because he misses the crunching of kibble. All the more reason to get him crunching on bone quickly. I don't feel that stripping his cage of fleece is an option...If he's a fleece chewer, this isn't an option - it's a necessity. I would remove all of it temporarily, at least until he's eating bone and see if the bone helps the chewing problem. Be super vigilant with poop patrol in the meantime. Many ferrents of fabric chewers use denim for bedding. Let me know what you think of this: (menu for WTF) <<<LOL, leaving this because it made me laugh when I re-read it, but I meant WED, THUR, FRI)He's not eating the wing tips as such, and we've got to get him eating bone, so instead of chicken chunks/wing tips, so the smashed up bone-in meat am and pm. If he's not eating the bone-in AT ALL, add a little eggshell to his chicken chunks to keep poops firm. Nothing wrong with doing liver and heart both on the same day, except for the output. Organ poops & heart poops are both gross, so doing both on the same day just means double-gross, lol. You can sprinkle a little eggshell on organs to keep them from being so runny. Mouse will mean bones, so that kind of depends on how he's doing with his other bone-in meat. But won't hurt to try it. I've been talking to some of the senior mentors about your organ situation. Unless, or I should say until Ezra is on at least half whole prey, he really needs to have at least 2 organs. Now I know we're headed for complete whole prey, so I'm not going to push the extra organ at this point because it takes a while for nutritional deficiencies to show up. But if at any time, you feed less than half whole prey per week, he'll need the extra organ. You can order organs online if you can't find them locally.
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Post by gfountain on May 28, 2014 10:30:25 GMT -5
This is another busy week, and I feel like I'm responding on the run, so to speak. So if I've missed anything, please let me know.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2014 10:54:03 GMT -5
Graduation is tomorrow nightOh, sorry! I thought it was last night. Well, hopefully it ends swiftly! When you feed the bone-in meat, JUST feed the bone-in meat.Gotcha, I didn't think that'd provide any issue but I can totally see how he's being picky after leaving liver and wing for him. If he's a fleece chewer, this isn't an option - it's a necessity. This isn't what I wanted to hear... Poor baby... I can't even afford a spool of denim at the moment to consider making him new bedding, so he's just going to have to do without... But it's better than risking blockage, so I'll get it outta there tonight. (menu for WTF)ROFL I was like "I typed WTF in my post? No... why is she saying WTF to my menu..." and then read your explanation. Duh. Lol! Unless, or I should say until Ezra is on at least half whole prey, he really needs to have at least 2 organs.I'll call around to butchers that might be on the outskirts of the city and see if I can find anything they might be offering free or cheap. I just did our budget last night and we definitely have no money until the paychecks we'll get on the 13th. We might actually miss some bills. I've never been in that type of situation. The reason is that this'll be the last month we pay rent on our old apartment, AND the first month we pay the mortgage for the new house... So we're paying twice what we normally would, and it's like $2,000 just for stupid rent... which is about what I make in a month... I hate it. Anyway, the 13th will be our home-free paycheck day... Until then, we can't really buy denim for new bedding, or order food online for him. Cheap organs shouldn't be an issue, but we'll just have to do what we can until we find something. I'd like to leave the mouse in there and see what he does with it. He ate the hopper when it was mixed with soup, so we have no reason to think he doesn't like the taste. So we'll try this: Today (Wednesday): AM: chicken chunks / liver chunks PM: wing tips Thursday: AM: wing tips PM: adult mouse Friday: AM: liver chunks / heart chunks 50/50 PM: wing tips OR adult mouse, depending on what he still needs to work on. I figure this will keep him somewhat balanced as far as organs go while I try to find something else for him. If I can get him eating the adult mice then he'll be getting good nutrition from that, at least.
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Post by gfountain on May 28, 2014 15:16:11 GMT -5
This isn't what I wanted to hear... I can't even afford a spool of denim at the moment to consider making him new bedding,
Sorry. Do you or Sam have an extra pair of jeans you can toss in there with him for now. They're washable & he shouldn't be able to chew the denim, so you can have them back when he's done. My kids have a pair of long denim shorts that they like to have hung up in their cage, kind of like a hammock. I button the fly through the bars and safety pin and clamp the legs at the other end and they LOVE to play in that. They sleep in the butt part, and play in the 'leg tunnels' and poke around in the pockets. why is she saying WTF to my menu... LOL, I always reply just as the thoughts come to me, then I go back and edit quickly in case I missed anything, so when I went back to edit, I saw that and cracked up. I was going to change it, but then decided you might appreciate a laugh too. see if I can find anything they might be offering free or cheap.
Free is good. I get mine free. But if you can't find it, don't worry about it. You're going to be starting whole prey soon and he'll get those organs, so you're in good shape. I've never been in that type of situation.Can be a scary place but it's temporary, and a new house?! WOO HOO! That's exciting. I'd like to leave the mouse in there and see what he does with it. Yeah, definitely try it. Just be prepared to replace it with something else if he can't manage it yet. So we'll try this: Today (Wednesday):
AM: chicken chunks / liver chunks Don't mix these, just go with the liver. Oops, you've already done this one, so never mind. PM: wing tips Smush those things up so he'll eat them. Actually, since you're pounding them, don't use the tips. Save those for when he works up to whole bone and smash one of the other wing sections. The wing tip is great for starting whole bone. Thursday: AM: wing tips Same as above, but smash a little less. PM: adult mouse Will probably need to chop this up (YUCK [img src="http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h352/JW_2012/Emoticons/ .png" src="http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h352/JW_2012/Emoticons/ .png" style="max-width:100%;"]). IF he eats this fur and all, remember his poops will appear as little furry packages, so don't freak out when you see them. Friday: AM: liver chunks / heart chunks 50/50 Why mix these? He'll eat both with no problem, yes? So to be sure he gets enough of each, just give one at a time. PM: wing tips OR adult mouse, depending on what he still needs to work on. Yep, at this stage of the game, you have to be flexible and adjust according to what he has or has not eaten. I figure this will keep him somewhat balanced as far as organs go while I try to find something else for him. If I can get him eating the adult mice then he'll be getting good nutrition from that, at least.
We're beginning to get balance, and deficiencies won't show up for a while, so don't worry about it. It's easier to balance for an entire week though, so next time you plan, try to plan for an entire week. Then we'll tweak that and adjust organ/heart content for the amount of whole prey you get down him.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2014 17:24:33 GMT -5
Thanks so much for your guidance. Not much to report on today. He ate 1.1 oz for AM (this was the 50/50 liver and chicken chunks mixture. Next time liver or heart is offered, I'll be sure to offer just one or the other.) We didn't have enough CGH wing thawed to make up a meal, so we included quail wings and part of a quail chest, all bone-in and pulverized / cut to size like you said. We're giving 2.4 oz just in case he's extra hungry and will let you know how he does. We've taken the fleece out of the cage and he's really having a rough time. The ramps we had for him are fleece-covered. Under the fleece it's just glued-together coroplast and tarp, so we had to actually remove them entirely. Stacking the litter box (with lid on) provided room for him to get between floors 1 and 2, but the tube we used to connect floors 2 and 3 is a bit harder for him and not very preferable. I feel like both are difficult on his back. It's like we've stripped him of his sheets and put him in a prison cell and I hate it soooo much. BUT that being said, we know why it's necesssry. I've left his hammock and some shredded paper for now. I don't think he can chew the hammock, but we will keep a close eye on it, and his poops.
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Post by gfountain on May 29, 2014 7:46:15 GMT -5
Awww... poor baby. I hate that all his fleece is gone too, HOWEVER... better no fleece than no Ezzy. Are his shelves fixed, unmovable? If not you could put them closer together temporarily. Or try wrapping the ramps with something besides the fleece. I REALLY hope that he'll stop chewing once he's eating bone. Agree Maybe try a different fabric for now that has a different texture, just something you have around the house - a towel, sheets, t-shirt, just something to curl up in. Actually a towel may not be a good idea. He could probably get a toenail caught in the cloth.
Hope he ate his bone-in. I forgot about the quail - good move! :thumbsup: If he did, smash the next meal's bones a little less.
Today is graduation & crazy stuff is happening at my house. I'll try to at least check in tonight, but you may not hear from me again until tomorrow.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2014 7:54:34 GMT -5
He didn't eat the bone-in, and I honestly feel it's because he's having so much trouble getting up and down between the floors. The shelves are fixed and can't be moved. He really does seem so sad. I don't know what to do. *sigh* I gave him chicken chunks (a little bit larger than he's used to) instead of the bone-in, because this is 2 meals in a row he's not eaten very well. I'll work with him on the bone-in today. Not sure if it was the quail he didn't like, or the texture - or maybe just the trouble getting there.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2014 17:42:52 GMT -5
I gave chicken chunks this morning, and he ate 0.6 oz. This is less than he normally eats in the mornings, but the chunks were quite a bit bigger (about 3x), and he did well, all things considered. I'm giving him liver for dinner because I'm not satisfied with how much of it he's eaten overall and want to get him at least eating organs. We'll see how he does getting liver all on its own, because we've not done that before. The wings should be thawed and ready to pulvarize feed tomorrow AM and PM.
He's really unhappy about the fleece thing. You can just tell he feels bad. He's refusing to use his litter pan. I'm really worried it's going to set us back.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2014 5:56:51 GMT -5
NOW I can say that I hope graduation went well! Unfortunately, things have been rough on our front. Sam and I have made an executive decision to give Ezzy his fleece back this morning. Instead, we'll simply remove the things he was chewing (ramps and pillow). I haven't seen him chew on the floor or his hammock. We left the hammock in anyway just so he could have the comfort of it, and of course he didn't chew it even when it was the only thing in his cage. The jeans we gave him got a nice soaking with pee the first chance he had, and since removing the fleece, he's eaten over the course of three days what he normally eats in one day. Any attempts to hand-feed are absolutely refused. I tried for over an hour last night, and he just started hiding from me and whimpering. This was with the chicken strips that he's used to. He's also going poop/pee on the top floor of the cage instead of in his litter pan, which is incredibly unlike him. Whether or not this is because he's having trouble with the lack of ramps, or simply because he's lashing out due to having the fleece removed, I'm not sure. The pee dripped all over the carpet, all his trays, into his food dish on the first floor. I don't mind cleaning up after him, but I think we're aware now that he's trying to tell us something. After talking to Sam a little more and really assessing which things he was chewing on, and how, and when, I think he's honestly not attempting to eat anything or chew it for pleasure, he's just bored. He doesn't have as many toys or tunnels in his cage as I'd like, and I think we're going to take a different approach in trying to resolve the matter by providing more fulfillment for him inside of the cage, rather than taking everything away from him. So... since we've only taken steps back in his switch to raw since removing the fleece, it is going back in this morning, and we'll watch to make sure he doesn't start chewing the floor or hammock. We're keeping the ramps and pillow removed, as these are what he was chewing in the first place, and we'll work to get something less chewable to cover them with. As for food, like I said, he's not been eating well. He had 1 oz last night, which is the best he's eaten since removing the fleece, and I think only because I forced it into him. Blech. I left 2.5 oz of quail, very pulvarized, this morning, hoping he'll eat a lot of it. If not, we'll need to give kibble this PM to keep him from continuing to starve himself. His activity has been active when he's out of the cage and not being forced to eat. Poops have been good (except for one stinky, runny liver-poo, but that's expected).
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Post by gfountain on May 30, 2014 12:29:17 GMT -5
Don't have much time yet because of company but yayyy.. graduation is over at least! Just wanted to check in.
After reading your first 2 messages about the fleece thing, I was going to suggest that you put SOME of it back & see if it makes a difference, then I got to your last post and saw that you did just that. Good for you! Since you're right there with him, you have to make the final decisions.
HOWEVER, if you give him kibble this afternoon, you'll undo all the progress you've made already. When first starting to eat raw, many ferrets will eat a LOT for a little while, and then slow down. Fluctuations in the amount of food eaten is completely normal. If he has food available, his weight is stable, his activity is good and his poops are fine, he IS getting enough to eat.
Now about the not eating.. could be any of several things. Could be the fleece, could be the new texture (smashed bone-in), could be the new taste (quail), could simply be the weather or the temperature. Instead of resorting to kibble, go back to the last thing he was eating - chicken chunks... or hearts, he liked those. You could also give him soup again. Anything rather than kibble. Steps backwards are common during the switch, especially if we're moving quickly, which we are with Ezra because he's been doing so well. Don't Try not to stress about his food or 'force-feed' him, because he will pick up on your anxiety. I know it's hard to not get stressed when he's not eating as much as you'd like, but you know he CAN eat on his own and he DOES know that the raw stuff is good food, so if he's not eating, he's most likely just not hungry. Slinkee will have whole weeks where it seems that he hardly eats anything, and then there are other weeks when he's just a pig. As long as he's pooping, peeing, and playing, I just try not to worry about it.
Gotta run.. people coming in the door.. but I'll check back later. Oh, and try a sock on the ramp.. see if he won't chew on that.
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