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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2014 11:10:33 GMT -5
Ok and I want to post a few pics, mostly to 'keep track' but also to confirm that I am calling things what they are with poops! So poops first... This is what I have been getting with heart and organ poops. I would all this a normal, formed, hrt/organ poo... This poo is again ok hrt/organ, but I would call it runny... Now, Wed morning I fed the hrt and liver (8.7 oz)... Rubes munching on heart... Pepe too of course...hehe Here is what was left that afternoon (100% of heart gone, lung left weighed at 2.1oz)... So I left what was not eaten and added PM meal (6.1 BI Chicken) She loves her hanging meals! This morning there was 2.0 left of chicken (the hanging one oddly enough..) and only 1.0 of the lung. I tossed the lung and left the chicken and added their morning meal of 9.7 Duck... Rubes enjoying breakfast... So that is a typical rotation for them. Sometimes I will not leave the leftovers if they smell funny, but usually I do and they eat another bit of it.
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Post by katt on May 29, 2014 21:37:03 GMT -5
They are not big fans of pork, that's why I usually sneak it in with organs (although, now I know it's not so much 'counted' as a different protein) so I will get some nice fatty pork next shopping and try to get them, her mainly, to eat it. Maybe I will do a mix with chicken and chop it up and mix it. I already feed quit a bit of duck and it is SUPER fatty (skin mainly). The chicken I feel like is leaner, though it does have the skin still. I will work on that.So everyone pretty much agrees with what I was thinking on Ruby which is that she's just borderline. A little fat on her bones couldn't hurt, but if she is eating and pooping fine and PLAYING fine (active, bright, not lethargic) then there shouldn't be too much cause for concern. I'd still say you should mix in some more fatty meats too. For pork, I find my boys like it better if I cut it up really small. I feed whole pork chops and they eat those, though reluctantly. lol Pork is not a favorite either in my house, but I find that the smaller I cut it up the happier they are about it. You could even make it into a soup (maybe add the eggs in here) and feed that once every week or two. Then they will stay familiar with the texture of soup (important in case they ever get sick), and most ferrets looove soup. I wouldn't use the soup as an excuse or crutch to avoid them making them it in chunk form though! I actually was thinking about weighing her 2x week. Did last this morning in fact and she weighed 1 lb 10.5 oz, exactly the same as Sunday. So, no loss... Her energy is fine, the couple poops I have seen look ok, normal for the meal. I will also do a weekly photo of her for sure. Okay, sounds good overall. Let's monitor for a week or two and just make sure she isn't Losing weight, but as long as she keeps eating pooping and playing, she should be okay. More fatty meat cuts, and more of the fattier meats, and be sure to leave skin on any meat. Beef - honestly I have never given them a beef cut, just in organ form. I have some ground beef in the fridge and plan on making spaghetti tonight. I will take out a 1/4 cup or so and offer it to them. This may test if it's a texture thing or not. If they do not eat it, we will try the other suggestions you have. I will put it into their menu next week along with the other meats. They have been balanced for long enough that a week or so of more MM wont hurt I guess... Sorry I 'think out loud' a lot with these posts...I always think out loud. lol I think as I type, so join the club! How did the beef go over? Beef is definitely something to work into the rotation if you can. Especially because the fatty cuts are generally cheaper bc humans don't like fat, so you can get nice fatty beef to give them. Beef is very strongly flavored, so they may actually like it less than goat. BUT red meat is important for the iron and Vit B, so we definitely want to get them eating some reds meats. Beef, goat, lamb, venison, moose, elk, caribou, etc.
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Post by katt on May 29, 2014 21:38:37 GMT -5
Okay well leftovers are fine lol The boys clearly aren't eating all of Ruby's food or anything. And the organ poops look exactly normal btw. lol Feeding a bone-in meal right after an organ meal will help to firm them back up a little quicker.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2014 10:41:21 GMT -5
So everyone pretty much agrees with what I was thinking on Ruby which is that she's just borderline. A little fat on her bones couldn't hurt, but if she is eating and pooping fine and PLAYING fine (active, bright, not lethargic) then there shouldn't be too much cause for concern.
I'll take that as good news She is very active, just a tiny thing I guess... I'd still say you should mix in some more fatty meats too. For pork, I find my boys like it better if I cut it up really small. I feed whole pork chops and they eat those, though reluctantly. lol Pork is not a favorite either in my house, but I find that the smaller I cut it up the happier they are about it. You could even make it into a soup (maybe add the eggs in here) and feed that once every week or two. Then they will stay familiar with the texture of soup (important in case they ever get sick), and most ferrets looove soup. I wouldn't use the soup as an excuse or crutch to avoid them making them it in chunk form though! I am definitely planning on working in a soup meal 1-2x a month to keep them used to it, so I will plan on making it a pork soup of some sort. And if the egg test goes well this weekend, I will plan an adding the egg to it. They will love that! Okay, sounds good overall. Let's monitor for a week or two and just make sure she isn't Losing weight, but as long as she keeps eating pooping and playing, she should be okay. More fatty meat cuts, and more of the fattier meats, and be sure to leave skin on any meat. Noted! I always leave the skin on, they love it too. Sometimes when I'm processing meat I will give out treats and it's usually little hunks of skin. I always think out loud. lol I think as I type, so join the club! How did the beef go over? Beef is definitely something to work into the rotation if you can. Especially because the fatty cuts are generally cheaper bc humans don't like fat, so you can get nice fatty beef to give them. Beef is very strongly flavored, so they may actually like it less than goat. BUT red meat is important for the iron and Vit B, so we definitely want to get them eating some reds meats. Beef, goat, lamb, venison, moose, elk, caribou, etc.
The beef test went well! I just pulled 1/4 cup out of dinner's ground meat before I seasoned it and Ruby especially loved it! Ironically enough the one that didn't care too much for it was Pepe! He usually eats everything! Oliver tasted a bit, but I had to do a little convincing. I left the bit left in their cage and Ruby was all over it! SO, this tells me that it might not have been the texture with the goat, but maybe just the new taste of it. SOOO, I am going to still do the egg thing I talked about (mixing it with some ground meat to get them to eat it) but I might try it with the goat since I know they will eat the beef. I do plan on working more beef into the rotation and since Ruby likes it so much maybe I will make her a little treat with egg and a nice fatty portion of ground beef. I can easily make little balls or patties to give her once a week or so. We will fatten her up! haha Here is today's meal (the quail wasn't given yesterday, so I thought I'd add it to today's liver and Uteri meal in case we get home late tonight... Friday is card night around here!) And I thought it look kinda funny hanging there lol
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2014 10:53:03 GMT -5
Okay well leftovers are fine lol The boys clearly aren't eating all of Ruby's food or anything. And the organ poops look exactly normal btw. lol Feeding a bone-in meal right after an organ meal will help to firm them back up a little quicker.
Typically, I have a BI meal in the PM no matter what the AM meal is. So far this is working and I think the poops are looking better. However, I had some weird poops yesterday... The good news is this was ALL the poop, they are pooping SO much less here lately especially, it's great! But they seemed a little off for a BI meal. The only other notable thing is they didn't eat much during the day yesterday. (this was Thursday's poops, I scoop in the evenings) Out of the 9.7 oz of BI Duck, they only ate about 3 oz. I left the rest and didn't give them a 'new' PM meal and another ~3 oz was eaten. They usually LOVE duck, so something was off. I dunno, again I am just 'documenting' this...
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Post by katt on May 31, 2014 14:50:49 GMT -5
Glad the beef went over relatively well! You might want to work on Pepe and make sure he is actually eating it. Have you given the egg a try yet? How did it go?
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Post by katt on May 31, 2014 14:52:24 GMT -5
The bad poops could have been from stress, a bad batch of meat, or who knows what. If it continues you might worry about someone having a bug, but if it was just once and done I wouldn't stress over it. Definitely yucky poops though, something was upsetting their tummies.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2014 16:59:48 GMT -5
[/b]Glad the beef went over relatively well! You might want to work on Pepe and make sure he is actually eating it. Have you given the egg a try yet? How did it go? [/b] The egg actually went fine this morning. I got ruby and Pepe to eat a nice tsp or so, Oliver not so much. I scruffed and stuffed a few bites, maybe 1/4 tsp, but hopefully enough to detect an issue if there was one. Not that it was him I was worried about anyhow. That was this morning and so far no vomiting or weird pops and activity and eating is fine. SO I am going to go with it was likely a overrating thing. I am going to give them the HB meat with eggshell and egg mixed for dinner. If poops look ok tomorrow, not sick tummies, we will try mice!!!
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Post by katt on May 31, 2014 17:19:03 GMT -5
Sounds like a good plan! I would keep trying to get Oliver to eat the egg and meat a few times a week until he learns to eat it better. If you ever have hairball issues you want to be able to give him egg without force feeding. Let me know when you try the mice. Just as review I'd start with a whole mouse and slit the belly open and drizzle in some favorite oil. It helps too if the mouse is warm btw, I forget if I mentioned that before. Put the mouse in a bag under some warm (NOT hot, trust me you do NOT want to overheat or cook the mouse...take it from someone who learned the hard way) tap water, and let it get to about body temp. If they don't like it with belly slit open, then chop it into little pieces and mix it with some small chunks of meat they do like. You can try to scruff and stuff some little bits of chopped mouse too. Give them a few hours with the whole mouse before moving to chunks. Oh! Also take away ALL food a few hours before trying the mouse so they are all nice and hungry. They are all young so insu isn't a concern, as we discussed before. A little hunger is often a great motivator.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2014 23:10:22 GMT -5
[/b]Sounds like a good plan! I would keep trying to get Oliver to eat the egg and meat a few times a week until he learns to eat it better. If you ever have hairball issues you want to be able to give him egg without force feeding. [/b] I will keep trying the egg with Oli. He doesn't care for the olive oil either so I really need to try to find some salmon oil or something else he likes. Maybe ferretone? Will work on finding something the little picky boy likes. [/b]Let me know when you try the mice. Just as review I'd start with a whole mouse and slit the belly open and drizzle in some favorite oil. It helps too if the mouse is warm btw, I forget if I mentioned that before. Put the mouse in a bag under some warm (NOT hot, trust me you do NOT want to overheat or cook the mouse...take it from someone who learned the hard way) tap water, and let it get to about body temp. If they don't like it with belly slit open, then chop it into little pieces and mix it with some small chunks of meat they do like. You can try to scruff and stuff some little bits of chopped mouse too. Give them a few hours with the whole mouse before moving to chunks.[/b] I will try just tossing it in there and see what they do then the belly slit thing. Pepe knows what to do with em, so maybe he will show the others! Good ol Pepe lol. And then we will try other alternatives like chopping it up and scruff and stuff. Oh, and I had snakes years ago, so I am well aware of the smell of "cooked" mice YUCK once in a while when I am trying to thaw out meat in the microwave (for us of course) and I will not flip it in time or something and a part gets cooked a bit. Ugh, the smell reminds me of that smell and I'm grossed out and can't eat it at all! But I have em in the fridge now and will warm em with the warm tap water and go from there. excited! [/b]Oh! Also take away ALL food a few hours before trying the mouse so they are all nice and hungry. They are all young so insu isn't a concern, as we discussed before. A little hunger is often a great motivator. [/b] Good point, didn't even think of that motivator! I will take out the feeding den (and food) around 8 and try the mice around 10 or 11. They should be done with their morning romp and nice and hungry by then! I also gave them the beef with a little egg and eggshell mixed in, so we will see how that goes tonight. If they don't eat it they will be especially hungry by 10ish!!! I sprinkled a little oil on a SMALL part so hopefully that will entice rubes and Pepe to take a bite but not scare Oli away lol. Will update with how mice went, weights, ruby pic and menu tomorrow! Have a great night!
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Post by katt on Jun 1, 2014 0:10:24 GMT -5
Koda will sell his furry little soul for some salmon oil... LOL I started with fish oil capsules (poke a hole and squeeze the oil out - they can't have the capsule of course). Ferretone is not ideal, but in the case of a possible blockage you use what you have to. What about plain egg? Of with some meat soup?
Oh the smell of cooked rodents! >_< *gags* I had a rat explode once...worst thing I have ever smelled in my life to date. And it Lingered! Ugh! Haha
Which reminds me I forgot to answer your Q about gutting the prey. I don't bother with mice and similarly small prey, but anything the size of a rat or larger you will want to remove the intestinal tract - stomach, small, and large intestines. They typically don't eat these parts anyways (you will find them smeared somewhere), and they stink. Removing the GI tract significantly reduces the odor of larger prey items.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2014 16:04:53 GMT -5
Ahhh I just wrote a long message about how the kids did with the mice and I went to another program to get pic links and it was gone? !!! So here's the cliff notes.... They ate about 4 oz of the HB meat with egg Ruby was the huntress, like I thought and ate up right away. Oli was a bit unsure, but ran off with one and munched in shortly Pepe didn't try it really until he was able to steal Olli's and then loved it! Before I left for parents house about 3 hours after giving it to them, there were only small prices left. I went ahead and gave evening meal, cause I'm going to be gone for a few hours. So it went well and I didn't even have to cut it open!
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Post by katt on Jun 1, 2014 16:51:46 GMT -5
That is fantastic! (dance) How is Pepe doing with the egg? I am assuming well since do haven't had any bad poop or vomit updates... So are you wanting to move onto live prey next then? Beyond that (which will take no time at all), there's really not too much left for me to teach you. If you have questions that we haven't covered or are still unsure about or anything let me know!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2014 17:39:52 GMT -5
That is fantastic! (dance) How is Pepe doing with the egg? I am assuming well since do haven't had any bad poop or vomit updates... So are you wanting to move onto live prey next then? Beyond that (which will take no time at all), there's really not too much left for me to teach you. If you have questions that we haven't covered or are still unsure about or anything let me know!
I didn't see any odd poops (definitely more runny, but I think maybe I didn't add enough eggshell. It was a lb of HB meat and I only had about 1 tblsp eggshell powder... What is the ratio? I am thinking it's more than that, but can't remember what now...) There wasn't any weird, light colored ones though. And no vomit at all. Their appetites all seemed good too, as you can see And yes, I definetly would like to try a live prey soon! I think I am going to feed the second helping of mice sometime this week in a PM meal and actually do it in the tub to get them used to eating there and try to wiggle the mouse around and get them to 'kill' it. And maybe this next weekend I can try to go get some live ones. Questions on that, while I am thinking of it... 1. I know a f/t or live mouse is meant to replace a meal, so how many will be a meal? Seems like Pepe should get more than Rubes... 2. How big should I get? Should I start with small hoppers and move up to adult mice? I am not as worried about them getting hurt, but I did have an experience with a mouse biting my snake and that was a nightmare! Trying to graduate me off so soon! JK I am actually feeling pretty good about everything... I think it will be a bit of trial and error with getting them to eat the goat and what ever new thing I find, but I have the tools to do it, just have to have the need! My babes are so good. I am so happy for them and proud of them! I will try my hardest to get the mice towards the end of this week and will go from there (dance)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2014 23:06:59 GMT -5
Ok finally got home and had time to sit down and look at the menu for next week! Now towards the end of the week we got a little off with the menu with the trials we ran (which I know isn't the END of the world, however they did miss out on their full meal of hearts, so to even that out I am doing two meals of hearts next week. I'm not too worried cause I have the whole goat as well as sneaking in another f/t mice feeding in there somewhere so it will all even out. If their poops get too weird I will try to add eggshell or another BI in there too. Also, I am doing a soupy meal to get them used to it. Oh side note! Their poops were AMAZING this afternoon! OMG I am tempted to feed whole everyday just for those poops!!!! There were several (like 4 maybe) so I know everyone got some. Ok menu: Mon AM BI chicken PM BI duck Tue AM heart beef PM BI quail Wed AM BI duck PM MM turkey Thur AM heart chicken/duck PM BI chicken Fri AM BI chicken PM chicken soupy Sat AM beef kidney & pork liver PM whole goat ground Sun AM BI duck PM BI chicken I am going to try to do the mice either tue or thur PM to partially replace the BI meals. I will likely give em part of it though if they finish their AM meals too. Weight: Pepe 3 lbs 6.3 oz (loss of 1 oz) Oliver 2 lbs 5.3 oz (gain of 1.2 oz) Ruby 1 lb 11 oz (gain of .5 oz) Not a huge gain for rubes, but about average for her too. Here are pics: Side note, Pepe has just recently developed those bald spots on either side of his tummy, just below his penis. Should I be worried or is it just shedding or something? Not the best above pic of ruby, lemme know if you need a better one. She just doesn't hold still!!!
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