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Post by Heather on May 11, 2014 21:40:19 GMT -5
Name: Abby HF Forum Username: AbbLee22
1. Where did you first learn about natural diets for ferrets?
Doing research, but mostly on this site hence why I want to get involved!
2. Please describe the type of diet you would like assistance in switching your ferret(s) to. Be sure to include if you are interested in feeding whole prey (live or frozen-thawed) and if you are wanting to FULLY switch to a natural diet or PARTIALLY. If you are unsure what kind of diet you want to put your ferrets on, please express that and we can help you find the best type of natural diet for your ferret.
I am pretty certain that I want to make a full switch. I like the idea of feeding whole prey (I have owned snakes in the past and am okay with feeding live or frozen prey) but am unsure if this will meet the entire nutrient requirements. I think frankenprey might be a good goal for now.
3. Why are you interested in switching your ferrets to a natural diet?
Because I have had the devastation of seeing what CAN happen if they are not on a good diet. I want to do better for my new furr-baby.
4. Do you understand that switching your ferret to a natural diet can be a lengthy, arduous process? Its not an overnight switch. It can be a commitment of several weeks or even months. Your HF Mentor will be more then happy to assist you in switchng your ferret(s) to a natural diet, but you need to be equally as commited. If you aren't willing to tough out a potentially lengthy switching process, or if you have major life changes approaching (baby on the way, moving, starting school, getting married/divorced, etc) then it might be a better idea to wait on switching your ferret's diet until you have more time. Are you willing to make the commitment?
YES! I want to make this commitment.
5. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names? Ages? Genders? Do they have any health problems? Are they overweight? Underweight? How long have you had each ferret for?
Pepe le Pew is our only ferret. He is about 4 months old little boy. No health problems known, but I think he is a tad bit underweight. I have only had him for about a month.
6. What diet do you currently feed your ferrets? (Please include all treats, supplements, etc) Do they already eat some form of soup?
Pepe has been on Marshall's ferret kibble for his life until 2 days ago when I introduced the soup to him. I tricked him into eating it for the first time by rubbing some 'FerretVit' (AKA ferret Crack in our household) on the inside of the bowl. He has now had about a cup, twice a day. I am still leaving kibble at night just in case, but it doesn't look like he has touched it, so I might remove it. I am mostly waiting to get a scale to be able to monitor how much be is eating and his weight. Should be able to get it this weekend. The FerretVit is the only treat he gets right now. About 1/4 tsp a day.
7. Have you ever tried to switch your ferrets to a natural diet in the past? If yes, what happened?
Nope, first time I have really taken the time to educate myself on it.
8. What additional information about yourself or your ferrets would you like to share?
I do have a busy household (Hubby, three kids, 6yr old boy, 4 yr old boy and 20 month old baby girl, 2 dogs, and a leopard tortoise) but I am willing to make the effort to get my furr-baby the best. I think once I get into the 'habbit' of what it takes it will be okay, after the initial switch of course. I want Pepe to be a lasting, health member of our family.
9. How often during the week do you have access to a computer?
Daily. I am also trying to get the app to work on my phone, although it's giving me a hard time at the moment...
10. Please post a picture of each of your ferrets (if possible).
Will do, see bottom of post :0) I will get a 'before' pic tonight that will show off his profile tonight
11. Have you met the requirements for this program? Do you have your scale, a place to access meats, hearts, livers, etc?
I am getting my scale this weekend. I have one place so far to access meats (I can get 80% of what I need there) and will be doing more research for that in the days to come. Just need to find the liver and more variety. We have lots of butchers around though, so just gotta make some calls.
Hi and welcome to the mentoring program (wave) . In a little while your mentor (Hurricanekatt) will introduce herself and you can get started on a new adventure in natural ferret care and diets. Please remember to post regularly (daily or as per arranged with your mentor) so that your mentor can assist you move along safely in this adventure. If you experience computer difficulties or are going to be away, please notify your mentor and most of all relax and have fun (dance) . Your mentor is here to help you on this journey. ciao
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2014 22:28:21 GMT -5
Yeah!!!! So excited to start!!!! I have to admit tomorrow is a busy day for me, but by end of day I will update on everything. Reading the thread above , it is a few chunks ago and a few ferrets ago!!! Lol talk soon!
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Post by katt on May 12, 2014 2:17:08 GMT -5
Location: Anchorage, Alaska I became a mentor because... I really like helping people (hence the whole becoming a doctor thing) and animals. I am a strong supporter of a natural diet and probably bore most people that I meet to death ranting about raw diet and why it is the best way to go…this way I can rant to someone who actually cares! About My Ferrets: Koda – male, Real Canadian, I got him when he was about 8 weeks old when I bought him in December 2009, Sable. I gave him raw the second he came home and he immediately ripped into it and started hissing to keep me away from his tasty prize! Neither of us has ever looked back. He is a real trouble maker and is pretty well known around the forums as such. He is my first ferret and he has forced me to learn and learn FAST! He has managed to eat several foreign objects, and is constantly finding new trouble to get into (his nose has a rubber detector in it). He had to have an emergency blockage surgery, which (we believe) ended up being the catalyst that resulted in his IBD. He loves digging the carpet up, or more recently chewing it, has a very serious oral fixation (if his mouth can stretch wide enough for his teeth to touch it – he will chew it), he will rearrange the room to reach things, has learned how to levitate, and is an all around little monster. He is also very strongly bonded to my boyfriend and I, and can be a huge love bug. When the endless energy is finally burned off, he will curl up in our laps, give us kisses, and fall asleep. As you can tell, I have this problem where I can’t stop talking about him or taking pictures of him… He has IBD which we struggled to get control of (and finally succeeded!) with diet. He has recently had a second blockage surgery, and this week he will be getting his second Des implant for juvenile adrenal. He's been a handful, that's for sure! Kenai: male, Silver/Black Roan Mitt. I brought Kenai home towards the end of November 2010 when he was about 7-8 weeks old. He is also eating 100% raw diet, whole prey, frankenprey, meaty bones you name it! He was a tiny little bag of bones when I brought him home, but he eats like a pig and grows like a weed! He is now huge and rolly-polly! definitely a little porker - he can barely make it out of his rice box because he is so bottom heavy. lmao He finally started shedding some fur and a little winter weight and is slimming up, but he is still a clumsy critter. haha He loves, LOVES toys and is a loveable, goofy little guy and has been helping to keep Koda company and burn off each others energy! He's definitely a little spaz - I thought Koda was until I got Kenai! He's a bit of a simpleton. He has trouble finding the potty box a lot, and he doesn’t learn very fast. He also is much less physically adept at things – he has trouble climbing and getting into/onto/out of things. He is sloooowly figuring out how to control his floppy body, but he definitely has some developmental delays. But, we love him just the same. About My Natural Feeding Experience: I've been feeding raw since December 2009 when I brought Koda home, but I had started researching a few months prior to that. Thanks to this forum, I was ready for a fuzzball to come home with my freezer stocked with meats! I gave him a raw chicken wing his first night home and that was the end of that! My boys are fed frankenprey, f/t rodents, and live prey. I have been reading and learning since before I brought Koda home and learned a lot from the people here on the forum. I am always on the forum, and various websites trying to learn more about ferrets in general, and especially raw diet. My boys are healthy, energetic, have super soft fur, and smell so good that people regularly comment, asking me what perfume or spray I sprayed them (esp Koda) with! I love telling them: Thanks to a raw diet - he just smells that good naturally! When Kenai first came home he had been eating Marshall's kibble and his poops were HUGE and smelled...awful doesn't even come close to describing it! Now he smells much better and his scraggly coat has been replaced by a luxurious pile of fur. Type of Mentor: Full switches only! I feed a frankenprey and whole prey diet - raw meats, bone-in meats, ground meats, frozen/thawed rodents, live prey, and occasionally freeze dried raw and commercially ground raw. I have never fed kibble so I can’t help with picking a good kibble. I absolutely do NOT do partial switches. My Specialty: Trouble makers! Especially only ferrets, and kits. I focus on full switches to raw – no more kibble!
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Post by katt on May 12, 2014 2:19:01 GMT -5
Yeah!!!! So excited to start!!!! I have to admit tomorrow is a busy day for me, but by end of day I will update on everything. Reading the thread above , it is a few chunks ago and a few ferrets ago!!! Lol talk soon! (dance) Excited to get to work with you - I was secretly hoping youd still be on the wait list by the time I finished my finals and could take on more mentees. lol Let's start out with an update on where you are. What are your ferrets eating, how much, what is your current feeding schedule, etc. The more detail the better. Well go from there!
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2014 10:12:23 GMT -5
I was happy I got paired up with you too! I have been watching you and Stef's switch (and a few others) and like your style haha Ok, so I have about 30 minutes between pts, so I will try to write as much as I can. Pepe (as you know ) has been kibble free since 3/13/2014. He was soupy for about a week and then transferred to chunks fairly quickly. He was eating bone around the end of March. Stated on crushed up chicken BI and is now eating them without being crushed. He eats pretty much any size meat and isn't too picky. He went through a stage where we wasn't eating organs, this included hearts, but I think he was just stealing Oliver's soupy. This was only about a week. Oliver came into our home 4/12/2014 and was a little harder to get to like the soupy. He was also eating a LOT less soupy than Pepe was at first, which leads me to believe he may have been eating Pepe's chunks earlier than I actually caught him doing. I caught him going into his den a few times, so he might have been. Last day with crumbled kibble in soupy was 4/27. (I was adding about 1/4-1/8 crumbled kibble sprinkled on top to convince him it was food) After that I was able to increase chunks and he did well. He was eating around 8 oz in AM and PM (again, possibly with Pepe's help because his amount decreased). He ate his first (witnessed) large chunk on the day Ruby came home, 5/1/2014. He is now eating large chunks and bone in without needed to crush it at all. Ruby was crunching on a CGH leg the first night she was here. I had a brand new batch of soupy (I was adding other things like organs and such to help Oliver with different tastes) that I went ahead and gave her and Oliver for about 3 days and never looked back! I am feeding pieces anywhere from CGH legs to as big as turkey pieces cut to about 2x4in 1 in thick. So far we have fed Chicken, CGH, turkey, duck, beef, and pork. Hearts are mostly beef and pork. Liver is chicken and pork. BI is mostly poultry, chicken, turkey, CGH and duck. Other organs we have feed are beef and pork lungs, beef kidney, pork tongue, and pork uteri. So far the only thing they are hesitant about eating are the lungs (from both animals) and the uteri. Honestly they eat everything and if they don't I will usually just leave it in longer and not give them anything new until they do. Unless it's stinky or been a bit too long of course. It is usually gone within an hour or two after the PM feeding time and they will get their next serving. Sometimes they have several oz left over from AM feeding and I don't add anything at all in PM and it's gone by AM. I am having a hard time getting the amount correct and honestly it is just because I haven't had time to sit down and really plan. I am gone from home no more than 6-8 hours so I just add more if I come home and they have eaten it all. I am feeding anywhere from 8 oz - 18 oz depending on how long I know I will be gone (ie tball game after work, will add more in case) and also when the meal is pretty much anything but bone in, I add closer to the 8 oz mark to make sure they are eating it. I feed AM feeding about 7 and evening anywhere from 6-8. Here is a link to my google docs with all the progress also, I am missing the last fews days, but also keep a written diary/notes that I transfer to this file when I have a chance. docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiXMUs5LYCDddEo4M2xvVWhWR0tjV3lUelYwX18yVEE&usp=sharingI think the main thing I want assistance on is of course making sure I'm doing it right! but also I have had a few weird poops and I wonder if I am not developing an allergy with someone... I will get more into that later and post a few pics I have of weird poops. I would also feel more comfortable with you looking at weights and making sure you think they are gaining at appropriate rates. I would also really like to try feeding f/t live (mice probably) and MAYBE work up to live. I had a snake many years ago that was injured by a mouse and along with the costly vet bills and his pain and suffering I am honestly a bit nervous about it. HOWEVER I think it would be good enrichment, so we will work towards it. But anyhow, that's all I can think of for now and pts here. Thanks again for the help and I look forward to working with you! (dance)
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Post by katt on May 13, 2014 2:54:20 GMT -5
I was happy I got paired up with you too! I have been watching you and Stef's switch (and a few others) and like your style hahaAww (shy) (dance) Pepe (as you know ) has been kibble free since 3/13/2014. He was soupy for about a week and then transferred to chunks fairly quickly. He was eating bone around the end of March. Stated on crushed up chicken BI and is now eating them without being crushed. He eats pretty much any size meat and isn't too picky. He went through a stage where we wasn't eating organs, this included hearts, but I think he was just stealing Oliver's soupy. This was only about a week. Oliver came into our home 4/12/2014 and was a little harder to get to like the soupy. He was also eating a LOT less soupy than Pepe was at first, which leads me to believe he may have been eating Pepe's chunks earlier than I actually caught him doing. I caught him going into his den a few times, so he might have been. Last day with crumbled kibble in soupy was 4/27. (I was adding about 1/4-1/8 crumbled kibble sprinkled on top to convince him it was food) After that I was able to increase chunks and he did well. He was eating around 8 oz in AM and PM (again, possibly with Pepe's help because his amount decreased). He ate his first (witnessed) large chunk on the day Ruby came home, 5/1/2014. He is now eating large chunks and bone in without needed to crush it at all. Oooo dates even! So organized! Love it! So same with him as Pepe - if they are eating the same meats, one list will be just fine. If there are some meats one will eat or one won't though just make a note. Ruby was crunching on a CGH leg the first night she was here. I had a brand new batch of soupy (I was adding other things like organs and such to help Oliver with different tastes) that I went ahead and gave her and Oliver for about 3 days and never looked back!(dance) Oh fantastic! Smart girl! Okay, so all 3 are pretty much switched and we just need to work on fine-tuning balance then I take it... I am feeding pieces anywhere from CGH legs to as big as turkey pieces cut to about 2x4in 1 in thick. So far we have fed Chicken, CGH, turkey, duck, beef, and pork. Hearts are mostly beef and pork. Liver is chicken and pork. BI is mostly poultry, chicken, turkey, CGH and duck. Other organs we have feed are beef and pork lungs, beef kidney, pork tongue, and pork uteri. So far the only thing they are hesitant about eating are the lungs (from both animals) and the uteri. Honestly they eat everything and if they don't I will usually just leave it in longer and not give them anything new until they do. Unless it's stinky or been a bit too long of course. It is usually gone within an hour or two after the PM feeding time and they will get their next serving. Sometimes they have several oz left over from AM feeding and I don't add anything at all in PM and it's gone by AM. So what do you need me for?! (giggle) Have you tried mixing the lung and uterus in with other meats? Blending them? Mixing them into a mixed-organ soup? Just trying to get a feel for what you have tried so I know what else we cold try. I am having a hard time getting the amount correct and honestly it is just because I haven't had time to sit down and really plan. I am gone from home no more than 6-8 hours so I just add more if I come home and they have eaten it all. I am feeding anywhere from 8 oz - 18 oz depending on how long I know I will be gone (ie tball game after work, will add more in case) and also when the meal is pretty much anything but bone in, I add closer to the 8 oz mark to make sure they are eating it. I feed AM feeding about 7 and evening anywhere from 6-8.Ahh amounts. That can be the trickest part for some. I personally just eyeball it - I just have a feel for about how much my boys will eat each meal. It's not perfect, sometimes meat does go wasted, but generally I'm pretty close. One thing that you can try is to weigh their meals before and after. So weigh their morning meal before you give it to them, then before dinner weigh whatever is left over. This will not be exact as some water weight is lost due to drying, and of course their appetites will fluctuate from day to day and season to season, but it will at least give you an average of how much you should be preparing for each meal. Another thing that you can do is don't give them any new food until the previous meal is either gone or spoiled. I actually only feed my boys once a day more often than not. I give them a bag of meats, and I check every 12 hours. If by dinner time, there's still food left, they don't get new food. If there's only a few bites left, I'll toss in another meal but leave the leftovers (often the old meat gets ignored, other times it gets eaten first bc they prefer it 'aged'). Any meat that starts to smell is immediately tossed - more for my own sake than anything else. lol Meat is good a lot longer than you might think - not sure if anyone has gone over this with you, so sorry if it is repeat info. Soupies are generally good for 6-8 hours, ground meat 8-12, chunks 10-24 depending on the size, bone-in meats 12-24, again depending on the size, whole prey up to 48 hours. Meat typically dries a bit first before it spoils. Now that said, ferrets generally will not eat meat that is too off for them. When you open a pack of sandwich meat and it smells funny, or see some mold on the loaf of bread, you know not to eat it. Your body is wired to tell you "Bad! that will make me sick!" Same thing applies to ferrets. They are generally pretty good judges of what they can and cannot handle. Also, as you deal with stashes you may start to notice (if you haven't already) a pattern...the meat dries and gets a bit greasy looking, but they will still eat it. Then it goes through a stinky, greasy phase in which they typically will stash it, but Not eat it. THEN it turns into their favorite dried out ferret-jerky, and they will eat it again. haha So even if you miss a piece of meat, there's no cause to stress over it being spoiled. Now the above all said....feeding meal to meal DOES alter your menu making ability a fair bit. This is where being able to be flexible and make substitutions as needed is important. So say you feed CGH bone-in for breakfast, and have hearts planned for dinner. If they don't finish the CGH, leave it in the cage and count it as their next bone-in meal; give the hearts the next meal, and simply remove a bone-in meal from later in the week since it was just replaced/bumped to CHG leftover dinner. I hope that makes sense and doesn't just sound like rambling. Don't hesitate to ask Q's or let me know if I am being utterly confusing or you need clarification on something etc etc. I will re-explain the same thing as many times, and in as many different ways as is needed until it makes sense. Here is a link to my google docs with all the progress also, I am missing the last fews days, but also keep a written diary/notes that I transfer to this file when I have a chance. docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiXMUs5LYCDddEo4M2xvVWhWR0tjV3lUelYwX18yVEE&usp=sharingMenu...I will get to that in a second. Love the notes! I think the main thing I want assistance on is of course making sure I'm doing it right! but also I have had a few weird poops and I wonder if I am not developing an allergy with someone... I will get more into that later and post a few pics I have of weird poops. I would also feel more comfortable with you looking at weights and making sure you think they are gaining at appropriate rates. I would also really like to try feeding f/t live (mice probably) and MAYBE work up to live. I had a snake many years ago that was injured by a mouse and along with the costly vet bills and his pain and suffering I am honestly a bit nervous about it. HOWEVER I think it would be good enrichment, so we will work towards it. First the live feeding...I am 100000% against people feeding live to their snakes. Entirely for the reasons that you experienced. Snakes are ambush predators, they aren't meant to be kept in a limited space with a prey that sees them coming. As I started with snakes before ferrets, it took me a while to warm up to the idea of feeding live. But honestly, it is a VERY different thing than feeding live to a snake. It really is. Ferrets are born hunters, they are built for chasing down prey that often sees them coming. They are quick and efficient mousers. The key is to never offer them prey that is to large (nothing larger than a mouse - rats are a huge no, hamsters can pack a mean bite, gerbils are iffy, mainly because of their incredible speed making a quick kill difficult to achieve). In other words - live mice only. MAYBE chicks, but I don't have any experience with chicks so I can't say for sure there - I'd have to check. The other important thing is that only skilled hunters are allowed to hunt. There is always a learning curve, so the first 1-3 hunts there's a little room for forgiveness. If by the 2nd or 3rd hunt though the ferret hasn't caught on, then they aren't allowed to hunt, end of story. Also, YOU must be willing to step in and finish the job in the case of a botched kill. Even skilled and experienced hunters occasionally make a less than clean kill. I am very lucky that both of my boys are fabulous hunters...but even so I have had to step in a handful of times. There are videos on how to perform cervical dislocation in the live feeding board. If you aren't familiar with the technique I highly recommend watching them. When do you want to start to intro f/t prey? Let me know when, get your hands on some prey, and we'll get going on it whenever you are ready! Okay now for the menu. Every week you should have the following - this plan is under the assumption that 2 meals a day are fed (14 meals a week), with one "meal" being defined as food eaten in 24 hours. So am meal would be breakfast plus everything eaten during the day, pm meal would be dinner plus everything eaten overnight. So with that in mind, out of every 14 meals you must have: 10% (1.5 meals!) heart 10% (1.5 meals!) organ - which should consist of about half liver, half other organs 7-9 meals containing significant amounts of EDIBLE bone (e.g. chicken wings, turkey necks, bone-in GCH, etc) The remaining meals are all non-heart, boneless muscle meat Make sense? Ask for clarification if not please. Also, I notice on your google doc menu that you are feeding a "mix." If this is bone-in and muscle meat that is totally fine. For multiple ferret businesses though, it is not a good idea to feed the hearts and organs mixed into the other meats. They need to be fed in their own, separate meals. The reason for this is if it is mixed, you simply can't monitor what each is eating and ensure that they are all getting the proper balance. Ferrets are picky, lazy creatures and will avoid eating their "broccoli" if they can. You might get one ferret who isn't a fan of liver, and so he picks around the liver and doesn't get enough. You might get a ferret who LOVES heart and gobbles up ALL of the hearts in each meal before anyone else gets a chance at any and now you have 1 ferret with too much heart and the rest facing taurine deficiencies... This is why heart and organ meals absolutely need to be separated out into their own meals to ensure that every ferret is eating them and getting the proper balance. IBD/Allergies food trial...ahh my specialty. Pain in the butt I tell you! haha Both of my boys have IBD (just my luck) so unfortunately this is something I have a lot of experience in. Is there any one ferret with bad poops in particular that you have managed to catch? I know it can be hard when you have more than one. What about specific foods that seem to cause more trouble? We'll see what the odd poops look like when you post them, but it never hurts to do a food trial. Well, never hurts anything but your free-time. lol The way a food trial works is we remove ALL proteins except for one (preferably a novel protein, something they haven't had before). Lamb and goat are both great places to start if you suspect IBD or allergy as lamb tends to be the most "hypoallergenic" of meats and is very gentle on tummies. Goat is very similar to lamb, and often more well accepted and less expensive but harder to find. Honestly, if their poops are mostly normal (or at least only bad on and off instead of regularly) and you aren't feeling greatly concerned about severe allergies or IBD, you can probably just start with a protein that you already have. I'd suggest pork as it is an uncommon allergen. The idea is that you will pick your ONE protein and feed nothing but that for 1-2 weeks. This does result in some temporary imbalance to their diet, but at long as it is only short term they should be just fine. If you can pick a meat that you have organs for (e.g. start with pork muscle, and ensure you have access to pork liver) that is good. You have to give it a minimum of a week to allow their system to clear out. The immune system needs a chance to chill out. It also can take a few days for a reaction to show up. For example some ferrets are violently allergic to beef and throw up within minutes of eating it. Others are mildly sensitive to chicken and do fine with 1-2 meals, but after 3 meals start to get upset tummies. Some are upset by change, and will have an initial reaction with any new protein, that will calm down after a few meals. Others do best with constant change. Each IBD ferret is drastically different. The system is the same though. Feed one protein for a week (unless you are having violent reactions of course). If poops are good after one week, then you can move onto the next protein. If poops are iffy, then you typically want to wait a little longer. [This shouldn't be an issue with your crew. The idea is that with ferrets in the middle of a major IBD flare up, you want to start them on a brand new protein, and feed it to them until their systems calm down enough to start trying new proteins. Generally after 2 weeks, 3 tops if things haven't calmed down you try something else and mark the first meat off as a likely allergen, testing it one more time later when the inflammation is under control. Sometimes meds are needed.] With your guys a few days to a week should be more than enough. If on 3-4 days of the same protein their poops are fine, then you can move on. Slowly mix in the next protein you want to try, a little at a time until after about 3 meals they are switched entirely to the new protein. Then you feed that for about a week, etc etc etc. Meanwhile you keep very close track of changes in appetite, activity level, itching, poops, yadda yadda. But anyhow, that's all I can think of for now and pts here. Thanks again for the help and I look forward to working with you!And off we go!! (dance)
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2014 15:52:22 GMT -5
Ok, I have a few hours to write, so I will try to get everything updated, pics and all...
Oooo dates even! So organized! Love it! You will get to know that I am SUPER organized... once I get 'into' something I get OCD obsessed. It will calm down eventually, but for this it seems like a good thing especially at the beginning. lol I am also very visual, so I take lots of pics. My mom was looking through my phone and was giving me a hard time because I have more pics of ferret poop and meals than my children... If there are some meats one will eat or one won't though just make a note.For the most part, all three are eating everything. Although, I say that and they left 50% of the turkey I fed yesterday. It was in there about 24 hrs (and although it didn't stink) I worry about going longer than that. But Bruno (the boxer) doesn't mind, he usually gets the left overs. It was a big meal, so I might try it again this week will no other proteins. I am TOTALLY ok with tough love lol Also, I have not had any luck getting Pepe (haven't tried others) to eat fish. I have tried shrimp, catfish, and salmon. It was just things we were eating that I offered. I think it would be good to maybe review some of the ways to introduce new proteins, if they wont eat them. So far pretty much I have been able to just toss it in and they eat it... I would like to know the process of introducing proteins, even if I never have to use it on my babes. (dance) Oh fantastic! Smart girl! Okay, so all 3 are pretty much switched and we just need to work on fine-tuning balance then I take it...Pretty much and the possible poop/possible allergy issue (if it's even an issue...) So what do you need me for?! (giggle) BECAUSE YOUR AWESOME! and I need reassurance I'm doing it correctly... haha Have you tried mixing the lung and uterus in with other meats? Blending them? Mixing them into a mixed-organ soup? Just trying to get a feel for what you have tried so I know what else we cold try. I have not done any kind of just organ soup really. They eat the lungs by themselves pretty well. The uteri I usually give them about 4 oz along with some other organ because it is so stinky. Usually the liver. They eat it though. The second batch of soupy I made for Oliver did have lung, uteri and the other normal stuff (because I was trying to get him used to other flavors) and he, and LIKELY Pepe, and eventually Ruby all ate it fine. My soupies were never truly soup because my blender sucks, so they were always chunky, but they ate them ok anyhow. Is this the way to introduce new proteins or flavors and I have answered my own question from above lol Ahh amounts. That can be the trickest part for some. I personally just eyeball it - I just have a feel for about how much my boys will eat each meal. It's not perfect, sometimes meat does go wasted, but generally I'm pretty close. One thing that you can try is to weigh their meals before and after.
This is basically what I am doing now, although I am not weighing them afterwards... This is what my baggies look like Another thing that you can do is don't give them any new food until the previous meal is either gone or spoiled. I actually only feed my boys once a day more often than not. I give them a bag of meats, and I check every 12 hours. If by dinner time, there's still food left, they don't get new food. If there's only a few bites left, I'll toss in another meal but leave the leftovers (often the old meat gets ignored, other times it gets eaten first bc they prefer it 'aged'). Any meat that starts to smell is immediately tossed - more for my own sake than anything else.
The last few meals I have been doing this also. The other thing is I am going to strictly feed the non bone in meal in the AMs because I feel like they have been holding out for it and not eating the liver/heart/other organ as well. It's usually a smaller meal, so I will have to be careful and not feed it on a day I may not be home in time to feed them the PM meal. This method I figured will also make sure they get the random stuff and then BI as needed to help with poops. There are, of course, days they get only BI, so it seems like they best way to make sure they are getting what they need. Meat is good a lot longer than you might think - not sure if anyone has gone over this with you, so sorry if it is repeat info. Soupies are generally good for 6-8 hours, ground meat 8-12, chunks 10-24 depending on the size, bone-in meats 12-24, again depending on the size, whole prey up to 48 hours. Meat typically dries a bit first before it spoils. Now that said, ferrets generally will not eat meat that is too off for them. When you open a pack of sandwich meat and it smells funny, or see some mold on the loaf of bread, you know not to eat it. Your body is wired to tell you "Bad! that will make me sick!" Same thing applies to ferrets. They are generally pretty good judges of what they can and cannot handle.
Thank you for reminding me of these times. I am feeding pretty big pieces. Especially since I am hanging them in the feeding den now. So far the only thing that gets stinky is the actual den if I don't get it wiped down well enough. This was this morning's meal... What do you think of the sizes and also do you think this qualifies as a 12-14 hour spoil time?
and lastly, this is what is left in AMs on average.... is it ok that they are not eating 100% of bone? or should be work on this?? Now the above all said....feeding meal to meal DOES alter your menu making ability a fair bit. This is where being able to be flexible and make substitutions as needed is important. So say you feed CGH bone-in for breakfast, and have hearts planned for dinner. If they don't finish the CGH, leave it in the cage and count it as their next bone-in meal; give the hearts the next meal, and simply remove a bone-in meal from later in the week since it was just replaced/bumped to CHG leftover dinner. I hope that makes sense and doesn't just sound like rambling. Don't hesitate to ask Q's or let me know if I am being utterly confusing or you need clarification on something etc etc. I will re-explain the same thing as many times, and in as many different ways as is needed until it makes sense.
Nope, it makes sense! I think what I was saying about feeding the organ/heart in the AM will also kinda keep them from missing an important meal. In other words - live mice only. MAYBE chicks, but I don't have any experience with chicks so I can't say for sure there - I'd have to check. The other important thing is that only skilled hunters are allowed to hunt. There is always a learning curve, so the first 1-3 hunts there's a little room for forgiveness. If by the 2nd or 3rd hunt though the ferret hasn't caught on, then they aren't allowed to hunt, end of story.
Makes sense... Also, YOU must be willing to step in and finish the job in the case of a botched kill. Even skilled and experienced hunters occasionally make a less than clean kill. I am very lucky that both of my boys are fabulous hunters...but even so I have had to step in a handful of times. There are videos on how to perform cervical dislocation in the live feeding board. If you aren't familiar with the technique I highly recommend watching them.
I actually am very familiar with it... I worked at an animal testing facility and worked primarily with the rats and mice breeding colonies. We, unfortunately, had to euthanize mice pretty regularly. With the help of CO2 gas and cervical dislocations. This facility was actually my first experience with ferrets. I never had to euth any, thankfully, but I helped with their husbandry. Now these guys were WILD, nippy and HUGE things, but I learned how to scruff them, clip nails safely, and how playful they can be. Led me to buy my first guy almost 10 years ago. But anyhow, not a problem stepping in if my babes can't 'finish the job.' When do you want to start to intro f/t prey? Let me know when, get your hands on some prey, and we'll get going on it whenever you are ready!
I will look around and try to get some f/t and will let you know. We can start from there (dance) I think Ruby, especially, will be my huntress. She already hunts daddies (ONLY daddies I might add lol) feet on a regular basis. lol Pepe...eh, he is my special boy lol, Oliver, dunno... he is so calm and collected. Mice may be too messy for him, but he may surprise us. I don't know if I will be able to do Chicks or guinea pigs... I have a soft spot for those. But f/t and live (for the hunters) mice and f/t rats should be ok. Okay now for the menu. Every week you should have the following - this plan is under the assumption that 2 meals a day are fed (14 meals a week), with one "meal" being defined as food eaten in 24 hours. So am meal would be breakfast plus everything eaten during the day, pm meal would be dinner plus everything eaten overnight. So with that in mind, out of every 14 meals you must have: 10% (1.5 meals!) heart 10% (1.5 meals!) organ - which should consist of about half liver, half other organs 7-9 meals containing significant amounts of EDIBLE bone (e.g. chicken wings, turkey necks, bone-in GCH, etc) The remaining meals are all non-heart, boneless muscle meat
GREAT, GREAT, GREAT review, but I do think I have this part down... just implementing it now...with 3 ferts. Looking at my newer menus, are they closer to where they need to be. I had one week (Ruby's first week with us) that poops were SO gnarly and loose that I ended up feeding BI all week, but got back on track the next week. Also, I notice on your google doc menu that you are feeding a "mix." If this is bone-in and muscle meat that is totally fine. For multiple ferret businesses though, it is not a good idea to feed the hearts and organs mixed into the other meats. They need to be fed in their own, separate meals. The reason for this is if it is mixed, you simply can't monitor what each is eating and ensure that they are all getting the proper balance. Ferrets are picky, lazy creatures and will avoid eating their "broccoli" if they can. You might get one ferret who isn't a fan of liver, and so he picks around the liver and doesn't get enough. You might get a ferret who LOVES heart and gobbles up ALL of the hearts in each meal before anyone else gets a chance at any and now you have 1 ferret with too much heart and the rest facing taurine deficiencies... This is why heart and organ meals absolutely need to be separated out into their own meals to ensure that every ferret is eating them and getting the proper balance.
This is exactly what happened... I did a mix (included chicken drum/wing/thigh w/crushed bone, chicken liver, turkey neck, beef hrt, beef kidney... in a close 'balance' of everything) for Pepe because I was going to try feeding that way. Also because he wouldn't eat some things at all and it was a trial thing. But then I got Oliver and it was too hard to tell who ate what. So I stopped feeding it except for fillers when they ate all the balanced planed meal and I needed to toss something in there to get them to the next planned meal. I agree with what I have read and experiences (PEPE the hog!!!) that they will do exactly what you said and eat just their favs. So, no more of that! In the document, in case you didn't see it, each tab at the bottom are separated by month. It always starts on March for some reason. In fact I will fix this now and put the current month 'on top' Also, would you like me to do a 'summary' of the week like Stef was doing so you can see it easier? I don't mind at all, but let me know and also what day would be best. I am going to make another entry with starting pics and weight and such. IBD/Allergies food trial...ahh my specialty.
Another reason I was happy to get you!!
Is there any one ferret with bad poops in particular that you have managed to catch?
I am not sure, I try to catch poops when they are bad and do it out of the cage, but so far these have all been pretty normal. Should I set up another cage and have one spend the day in there to try and narrow it down?? What about specific foods that seem to cause more trouble?
Also not sure... Looking at my notes it appears I noted these 'lighter' poops.... 5/7: AM: beef hrt PM: BI Chicken 4/24: AM: BI chicken PM: BI Duck 4/23: AM: BI duck, chicken MM PM: BI Chicken, Beef Hrt 4/22: AM: BI Chicken PM: Pork MM, MM Chicken (egg also) To me, this doesn't really narrow it down only because I have fed all these things on days that the poops we not weird. Here are some pics of 'weird' poops... This one is from 4/6 (only Pepe at this time) AM: Chick MM PM: pork heart, chick MM This one if from 5/10 AM: BI Chick, BI Duck, Beef lung PM: same I admit I don't always get a chance to scoop 2 times a day, depends on how crazy the morning is. I usually try to at least look though. Are these even poops I should be worried about? I have never seen more than 1 out of the dozen or so poops in the box when I go to scoop that are weird like this. Also, most of those dates around 4/20th were when Oliver was in the big middle of the switch and it might have been from him too. I know Pepe had the WORST, weirdest poop ever for a few weeks. it never hurts to do a food trial. Well, never hurts anything but your free-time. lol Free time?? What's that... is it the short period between when I finally get the kids to bed and when I get to finally get to bed??? Or maybe the drive from home-work and work-home??? haha Just kidding... I will surely do a food trial if you feel the poops are suspicious. I will also be more diligent about inspecting and photographing so you can get a clear idea if there is even an issue. The more I explain to YOU the more I have myself convinced it may just be 'new to raw' tummies. Let me know what you think! I think I have a love/hate relationship with this forum! It makes me more educated and aware of my own furr-babes, but it also makes me a little paranoid about things that MAY be happening. I know my hubby thought I was NUTS when I told him I thought Pepe was a Waardy kid. It was also before I knew it was nothing to worry about, so I'm sure I was making a bigger deal about it than I should have. Poor Oliver 'appeared' to have a bald spot on his back the other day, I noticed during a soak bath... duh, it was just his poor white skin showing through from being wet. But I was convinced for a few minutes that he must be adrenal! Until he was completely dry and fluffy...ugh.... And then, Ruby was 'staring into space' a few days ago and my heart skipped a beat until she sprung on her brother... I guess it's best to be aware than oblivious... And off we go!! (dance)
SOOO Excited! And GRATEFUL!!!!
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2014 16:21:31 GMT -5
So here is a 'baseline' from here on out on weights and such. If you need later ones they are all on my doc file as well. I typically weigh on Sundays. 1&2. Pepe: Weight: 3 lb 6 oz (gain of 0.8 oz)/ 1531g (+22.8g) Oliver: Weight: 2 lb 3.5 oz (+ 2.4 oz)/ 1006g (+67.6g) Ruby: Weight: 1 lb 8.3 oz (+1.9oz)/ 689g (+53.97) 3. Eating about 8-12 oz daily, between them all. 4. As we have discussed, typically ok. Looking into possible allergy. (I am going to also take a pic of what I am calling a 'normal' poop and see if I am correct in calling it ok...while I have you at my 'disposal' and all ) 5. GREAT!!! SO playful and happy and active. BEG to get out as soon as I get up in AM and get home in PMs. 6. Here is the menu I have mocked up. I need to go home and make sure I have everything available. I will keep it the type of meal, but the protein may change slightly... Mon AM: Turkey MM (10 oz), Chicken BI (4.4 oz), CGH BI (4.2) PM: We are not going to be home till late, hence large AM meal Tue AM: Duck BI (9.7 oz) PM: Chicken BI (9.1 oz) Wed AM: Heart (likely beef) ~9 oz PM: BI (chick or CGH) Thur AM: Chicken Liver ~6 oz (2 each) w/ ~3-4 oz other organ (kidney, uteri, lung) PM: BI (have duck, chicken, and CGH available) Fri AM: Chicken Liver ~6 oz (2 each) w/ ~3-4 oz other organ (kidney, uteri, lung) PM: BI Sat AM: MM (gizzards or pork) PM: BI Sun AM: Beef Heart (I like feeding a second heart meal...) ~9 oz PM: BI That gives 8 BI, 2 Heart, 2 liver/organ, 2 MM meals And I have no prob getting my 3 proteins in, I feed beef, chicken, CGH, and duck weekly! I will go back in tonight/early tomorrow and put in the missing amounts and proteins. It was a busy weekend and I didn't get a chance to meal plan and pull baggies for the week. Is this too much liver? I have 2 oz each stuck in my head from something, but I know half of the organ meal needs to be liver. Let me know if I need to adjust and I can before the feeding. Also, do you like to have this weekly 'update' like the mentoring program rules indicate? Along with pics and a menu? Let me know what YOU like and would like me to do to make your life easier
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2014 17:07:16 GMT -5
Also, I came across these pics... This is Pepe the first day we started him on raw. Not only was he a TINY thing, but look at his coat! There's a HUGE difference! More so with him that my other two I think... Aww he was so cute... They grow so fast! This was only 2 months ago! I feel like he has been with us forever...
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Post by katt on May 13, 2014 17:20:44 GMT -5
Also, I have not had any luck getting Pepe (haven't tried others) to eat fish. I have tried shrimp, catfish, and salmon. It was just things we were eating that I offered. I think it would be good to maybe review some of the ways to introduce new proteins, if they wont eat them. So far pretty much I have been able to just toss it in and they eat it... I would like to know the process of introducing proteins, even if I never have to use it on my babes.There are lots of tricks that you can try. You can make a soup or puree of a familiar protein (boneless, skinless chicken breasts typically do fairly well in the blender) and mix tiny slivers of the new protein in, then gradually increase the size and number of the new protein while decreasing the soup. You can also mix slivers of new protein into small chunks of known protein. Another thing is to use a known protein soup as a gravy on new proteins, just enough to coat it and entice them to try it. You can do the same with oil. Koda used to refuse to touch fish, but he learned to love salmon oil and now all I have to to is drizzle a little salmon oil over any new food and he will dig right in. Hand feeding often becomes involved if you have a particularly picky fuzz. I have not done any kind of just organ soup really. They eat the lungs by themselves pretty well. The uteri I usually give them about 4 oz along with some other organ because it is so stinky. Usually the liver. They eat it though. The second batch of soupy I made for Oliver did have lung, uteri and the other normal stuff (because I was trying to get him used to other flavors) and he, and LIKELY Pepe, and eventually Ruby all ate it fine. My soupies were never truly soup because my blender sucks, so they were always chunky, but they ate them ok anyhow. Is this the way to introduce new proteins or flavors and I have answered my own question from above lolYou should make some soup (of any kind really) and freeze it in an ice cube tray, then store the cubes in a ziplock bag in the freezer. It's really important for them to recognize soup as a food. If you ever have a sicky who you need to eat, soup is the best thing. It is easy to feed, easy to digest, gentle on their tummies, aids in hydration, etc. You don't want to be stuck force feeding a sick ferret a food that it doesn't recognize as food. It's important to offer meat soup often enough to remind them that it's food. My boys LOVE soup, so that means I only have to feed it a few times a year really. Some ferrets are very stubborn and "forget" that a food is edible after a week of not getting it. [img src="http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h352/JW_2012/Emoticons/ .png" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h352/JW_2012/Emoticons/.png"].png[/IMG] lol How often your babies should get soup really depends on them, but I'd say just every now and then is generally more than sufficient. This is basically what I am doing now, although I am not weighing them afterwards... This is what my baggies look likeI'd say that looks pretty good for 24 hours for 3 ferrets. Probably on the heavy side for a single meal though. I never learn the "averages" because I find people get far too stuck on specific numbers (big pet peeve of mine lol) and every ferret is SO different. That said, average daily consumption for ferrets is 1-4 ounces. Keep in mind we are also heading into summer, so they will be cutting back, AND they are getting more used to raw and will be cutting back from the initial gorging for lost nutrients phase. Weighing the leftovers after each meal for a few days to a week or two will give you an average that you can work with to minimize waste, and you can fine tune from there. Thank you for reminding me of these times. I am feeding pretty big pieces. Especially since I am hanging them in the feeding den now. So far the only thing that gets stinky is the actual den if I don't get it wiped down well enough. This was this morning's meal... What do you think of the sizes and also do you think this qualifies as a 12-14 hour spoil time?Definitely! Whole meat on whole bones is good for 24 hours. Nope, it makes sense! I think what I was saying about feeding the organ/heart in the AM will also kinda keep them from missing an important meal. am/pm doesn't really matter - it's whatever works best for you. As long as over the course of the week they are getting the balance that they need. I actually am very familiar with it... Okay, good. I will look around and try to get some f/t and will let you know. We can start from there (dance) I think Ruby, especially, will be my huntress. She already hunts daddies (ONLY daddies I might add lol) feet on a regular basis. lol Pepe...eh, he is my special boy lol, Oliver, dunno... he is so calm and collected. Mice may be too messy for him, but he may surprise us. I don't know if I will be able to do Chicks or guinea pigs... I have a soft spot for those. But f/t and live (for the hunters) mice and f/t rats should be ok.That's fine. My boys only get mice and rats because that's all I have easy access to. They have had hamster before, but it's not a regular meal. As for hunters, you may be surprised. Kenai is my slow, special boy. He's a Waardy and not the brightest crayon in the box. He is mellow and loves to snuggle. He waddles when he walks, and can never seem to remember where the litter box is when he isn't in the cage, nor does he learn anything particularly quickly. He has zero muscle to speak of (multiple vets have even commented on his utter lack of muscle mass), and no coordination... However, he is an amazing hunter. Koda is muscular and fast and super intelligent and powerful and agile...he is a great hunter. Kenai outstrips him by a fair bit! Kenai is my little killer. Koda will dispatch a mouse, then try to run off and stash it. Kenai I can drop mouse after mouse after mouse and he kills them each in an instant - he is all about the kill. As soon as the mice come out it's like a little switch gets flipped in his head and he turns into an entirely different ferret. He's incredibly quick, and very efficient. I am regularly amazed that my slow, bumbly boy turns into such an efficient little killing machine. lol I've also seen various ferrets on the forum with every range of skills. Heather had one male who thought the mice were his babies to be snuggled and cared for - he would eat them dead, but living they were to be snuggled... The only way to figure it out is to let them hunt. GREAT, GREAT, GREAT review, but I do think I have this part down... just implementing it now...with 3 ferts. Looking at my newer menus, are they closer to where they need to be. I had one week (Ruby's first week with us) that poops were SO gnarly and loose that I ended up feeding BI all week, but got back on track the next week. Oh! Okay haha I was looking at the one all bone-in week in March. lol Gotchya. This is exactly what happened... I did a mix (included chicken drum/wing/thigh w/crushed bone, chicken liver, turkey neck, beef hrt, beef kidney... in a close 'balance' of everything) for Pepe because I was going to try feeding that way. Also because he wouldn't eat some things at all and it was a trial thing. But then I got Oliver and it was too hard to tell who ate what. So I stopped feeding it except for fillers when they ate all the balanced planed meal and I needed to toss something in there to get them to the next planned meal. I agree with what I have read and experiences (PEPE the hog!!!) that they will do exactly what you said and eat just their favs. So, no more of that! In the document, in case you didn't see it, each tab at the bottom are separated by month. It always starts on March for some reason. In fact I will fix this now and put the current month 'on top'Also, would you like me to do a 'summary' of the week like Stef was doing so you can see it easier? I don't mind at all, but let me know and also what day would be best. I am going to make another entry with starting pics and weight and such.Yes, having a weekly summary here is super helpful if you don't mind. The google docs are great for notes, but unfortunately they don't refresh well when I save them in my tabs, so then I have to go dig through pages of old posts to find the link every time. :/ Also, having the week summary here allows me to easily quote, bold, and make notes directly on the summary without flipping back and forth between tabs. lol I am not sure, I try to catch poops when they are bad and do it out of the cage, but so far these have all been pretty normal. Should I set up another cage and have one spend the day in there to try and narrow it down??Nope, don't bother. Stress can cause IBD flare ups, and bad poops in perfectly healthy ferrets. Separation can cause stress. So yeah...you can end up with some false positives so to speak if you separate. It CAN be used when you really need to narrow someone down, but unless they are having really acutely bad poops I wouldn't bother with separation. To me, this doesn't really narrow it down only because I have fed all these things on days that the poops we not weird. Nope, doesn't narrow it down at all! Which is fine, I was expecting as much. It has only been a few weeks that they have all been on raw only. Those poops are a tad concerning, but not particularly alarming YET. As long as they remain irregular and infrequent, I would give it a few weeks to see if they stop. If not, then we can certainly do a protein trial. If they have been on raw for 8-10 weeks and are still having those poops, a food trial would be worth exploring. I admit I don't always get a chance to scoop 2 times a day, depends on how crazy the morning is. I usually try to at least look though. Are these even poops I should be worried about? I have never seen more than 1 out of the dozen or so poops in the box when I go to scoop that are weird like this. Also, most of those dates around 4/20th were when Oliver was in the big middle of the switch and it might have been from him too. I know Pepe had the WORST, weirdest poop ever for a few weeks. Meh, who does? lol I scoop once a day - but then I only have 2 ferrets so I can get away with that. Larger businesses need more frequent cleaning. I scoop 2x a day if the boys are being particularly smelly (after salmon meals for instances - blech! Fishy poops are something else I tell you...) but otherwise my routine is 1xday. Free time?? What's that... is it the short period between when I finally get the kids to bed and when I get to finally get to bed??? Or maybe the drive from home-work and work-home??? haha Just kidding... I will surely do a food trial if you feel the poops are suspicious. I will also be more diligent about inspecting and photographing so you can get a clear idea if there is even an issue. The more I explain to YOU the more I have myself convinced it may just be 'new to raw' tummies. Let me know what you think!hahaha No rest for the weary! Pictures are definitely always helpful. And as I said above, let's give them a few weeks and if things aren't clearing up consider testing a few proteins then, but for now I wouldn't really worry about it. I think I have a love/hate relationship with this forum! It makes me more educated and aware of my own furr-babes, but it also makes me a little paranoid about things that MAY be happening. I know my hubby thought I was NUTS when I told him I thought Pepe was a Waardy kid. It was also before I knew it was nothing to worry about, so I'm sure I was making a bigger deal about it than I should have. Poor Oliver 'appeared' to have a bald spot on his back the other day, I noticed during a soak bath... duh, it was just his poor white skin showing through from being wet. But I was convinced for a few minutes that he must be adrenal! Until he was completely dry and fluffy...ugh.... And then, Ruby was 'staring into space' a few days ago and my heart skipped a beat until she sprung on her brother... I guess it's best to be aware than oblivious... hahaha We ALL do that, don't worry!
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Post by katt on May 13, 2014 17:44:48 GMT -5
So here is a 'baseline' from here on out on weights and such. If you need later ones they are all on my doc file as well. I typically weigh on Sundays.That works for me. As long as I have a weekly menu and check in, what day it is could matter less to me. Whatever is most convenient for you! Mon AM: Turkey MM (10 oz), Chicken BI (4.4 oz), CGH BI (4.2) PM: We are not going to be home till late, hence large AM meal Tue AM: Duck BI (9.7 oz) PM: Chicken BI (9.1 oz) Wed AM: Heart (likely beef) ~9 oz PM: BI (chick or CGH) Thur AM: Chicken Liver ~6 oz (2 each) w/ ~3-4 oz other organ (kidney, uteri, lung) PM: BI (have duck, chicken, and CGH available) Fri AM: Chicken Liver ~6 oz (2 each) w/ ~3-4 oz other organ (kidney, uteri, lung) PM: BI Sat AM: MM (gizzards or pork) PM: BI Sun AM: Beef Heart (I like feeding a second heart meal...) ~9 oz PM: BI That gives 8 BI, 2 Heart, 2 liver/organ, 2 MM meals And I have no prob getting my 3 proteins in, I feed beef, chicken, CGH, and duck weekly!Okay, so you are a tad heavy on the organs and heart. Heart doesn't really matter as long as their poops are good, you can't really overdo taurine. The organs though you should cut back to 1.5 meals. To make the odd half-meal split a bit easier on people, I generally recommend doing one meal full heart, one meal full organs, one meal half heart, half organs. You can do it however works for you though really. Perhaps that meal would be a good time to give them soupies - you could make a half organ, half muscle meat soup for example. Play with it and see what works. Another option I don't generally recommend to newbies, largely because some people get confused. We tend to enforce the balance very strictly with new people so that there is no confusion, and we can make absolutely sure they are balancing correctly. That said, you can fidget with the balance a bit. For example you can do 2 meals of organ this week, and 2 next week - as long as it balances out to the 10% (1.5 meals). You clearly have a good way of tracking it so I'm not concerned about stretching it out over 2 weeks if that's what you would prefer. I will go back in tonight/early tomorrow and put in the missing amounts and proteins. It was a busy weekend and I didn't get a chance to meal plan and pull baggies for the week.
Is this too much liver? I have 2 oz each stuck in my head from something, but I know half of the organ meal needs to be liver. Let me know if I need to adjust and I can before the feeding.Sounds good. We're done with finals but still have a lot going on. I totally get busy schedules! lol "2 ounces a week" is a saying that needs to be abolished and that I am in the process of fighting behind the scenes. That is based on the AVERAGE consumption of ferrets per day and is NOT at all accurate. The rule is and always has been 10%. Take for example 2 different ferrets, let's say a tiny little female and a large male. The female we will say eats 1 ounce of food a DAY, and the male eats 4 ounces a day. They need 10% organ a week (half liver, half other - so 5% liver, and 5% other organs). The female, eating 1oz a day, gets 7oz of food a week, so now you give her her weekly 2oz of liver...well do the math. That comes to almost 30% of her total intake! That is THREE TIMES the amount of organ she should be consuming. Now the male is eating 4oz a day, coming to 28oz a week, and you give him his weekly 2oz of liver...well that only ends up being 7% of his total diet - so now he is deficient in organ meat... See what I mean? This is why the meal method works much better. WHATEVER method you use, it should always come out to 10% organ (half liver, half other organs). If you are feeding 2 meals a day (again a meal being food eaten in 24 hours), that's 14 meals a week. 10% is going to be just under a meal and a half. Every day they will eat a little more or less (just like us, their appetite fluctuates), but if they are always getting 1.5 meals a week of organs, then you know that they will always balance out to 10% organ in their diet. Same thing applies for heart, but if you go over on heart it's not a big deal - better too much taurine than too little. Also, do you like to have this weekly 'update' like the mentoring program rules indicate? Along with pics and a menu? Let me know what YOU like and would like me to do to make your life easier Since we are being more strict about the rules I'm going to say yes. The pictures are largely because we have had multiple incidences where someone insisted their ferrets were eating fine, not losing weight...then went into a crisis because they were literally starving. We had one ferret almost die this way. Unfortunately, we can only work off of the information that our mentees give us. If you tell us they are eating great, we are going to assume that means they are eating great. The pictures are in an effort to prevent this type of thing from happening. We can see if one is starting to look too thin, and it helps you to track their weight and body size changes too. I'm not particularly worried about this happening with you, I know you're on top of it. The weekly weigh-ins are definitely important - especially for you so you can get a feel for their normal fluctuations in weight and know when something is off. It's a great way to catch thing early. And who doesn't love fuzzy pics? If every 2 weeks is easier for you for pictures I'm fine with that, but let's at least do it that often for the sake of sticking to the rules. Weekly weigh-ins and menus definitely need to happen no matter what though.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2014 18:02:45 GMT -5
There are lots of tricks that you can try. You can make a soup or puree of a familiar protein (boneless, skinless chicken breasts typically do fairly well in the blender) and mix tiny slivers of the new protein in, then gradually increase the size and number of the new protein while decreasing the soup. You can also mix slivers of new protein into small chunks of known protein. Another thing is to use a known protein soup as a gravy on new proteins, just enough to coat it and entice them to try it. You can do the same with oil. Koda used to refuse to touch fish, but he learned to love salmon oil and now all I have to to is drizzle a little salmon oil over any new food and he will dig right in. Hand feeding often becomes involved if you have a particularly picky fuzz.Will plan on making a chicken soupy and trying some fish this or next week. Any recommendations? I know (or think I remember...) no more than once a week because of the mercury content. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong... You should make some soup (of any kind really) and freeze it in an ice cube tray, then store the cubes in a ziplock bag in the freezer. It's really important for them to recognize soup as a food. Will plan on making soupy for freezing! (list forming... lol) I'd say that looks pretty good for 24 hours for 3 ferrets. Probably on the heavy side for a single meal though. I never learn the "averages" because I find people get far too stuck on specific numbers (big pet peeve of mine lol) and every ferret is SO different. That said, average daily consumption for ferrets is 1-4 ounces. Keep in mind we are also heading into summer, so they will be cutting back, AND they are getting more used to raw and will be cutting back from the initial gorging for lost nutrients phase. Weighing the leftovers after each meal for a few days to a week or two will give you an average that you can work with to minimize waste, and you can fine tune from there.I can be very detail oriented about numbers, so I will TRY and remidy this. I was REALLY confused at the begining and kept asking for NUMBERS and AMOUNTS! I will try and think of it as % am/pm doesn't really matter - it's whatever works best for you. As long as over the course of the week they are getting the balance that they need. Noted I will look around and try to get some f/t and will let you know. We can start from there (dance) I think Ruby, especially, will be my huntress. She already hunts daddies (ONLY daddies I might add lol) feet on a regular basis. lol Pepe...eh, he is my special boy lol, Oliver, dunno... he is so calm and collected. Mice may be too messy for him, but he may surprise us. I don't know if I will be able to do Chicks or guinea pigs... I have a soft spot for those. But f/t and live (for the hunters) mice and f/t rats should be ok.That's fine. My boys only get mice and rats because that's all I have easy access to. They have had hamster before, but it's not a regular meal. The only way to figure it out is to let them hunt.My husband is really excited about this. Luckily we have a nice LARGE tub to work with. And your boys sound like characters! Pepe has the wobble walk too... Oh! Okay haha I was looking at the one all bone-in week in March. lol Gotchya. Yeah BAD poop week! lol Yes, having a weekly summary here is super helpful if you don't mind.
Not a problem!
The google docs are great for notes, but unfortunately they don't refresh well when I save them in my tabs, so then I have to go dig through pages of old posts to find the link every time.
I will try and re-post it every so often (maybe with the weekly updates...) so you can find it easier Nope, don't bother. Stress can cause IBD flare ups, and bad poops in perfectly healthy ferrets. Separation can cause stress. So yeah...you can end up with some false positives so to speak if you separate. It CAN be used when you really need to narrow someone down, but unless they are having really acutely bad poops I wouldn't bother with separation.
Noted Nope, doesn't narrow it down at all! Which is fine, I was expecting as much. It has only been a few weeks that they have all been on raw only. Those poops are a tad concerning, but not particularly alarming YET. As long as they remain irregular and infrequent, I would give it a few weeks to see if they stop. If not, then we can certainly do a protein trial. If they have been on raw for 8-10 weeks and are still having those poops, a food trial would be worth exploring. As of right now they are definitely infrequent and irregular. Will try to keep a better note on it in my daily journal! Meh, who does? lol I scoop once a day - but then I only have 2 ferrets so I can get away with that. Larger businesses need more frequent cleaning. I scoop 2x a day if the boys are being particularly smelly (after salmon meals for instances - blech! Fishy poops are something else I tell you...) but otherwise my routine is 1xday. Don't feel so bad now! lol
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Post by katt on May 13, 2014 20:30:54 GMT -5
Will plan on making a chicken soupy and trying some fish this or next week. Any recommendations? I know (or think I remember...) no more than once a week because of the mercury content. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong...Nope, you are correct. And honestly, you don't want to deal with fish poops more than once a week anyways! haha Especially salmon. Ugh. Any fish is great, though salmon is particularly high in fatty omegas. Halibut is great, mackerel, whitefish, squid, I have given shrimp eggs before...really as long as it isn't injected with saline, seasoned, or preserved it should be fine in moderation. I can be very detail oriented about numbers, so I will TRY and remidy this. I was REALLY confused at the begining and kept asking for NUMBERS and AMOUNTS! I will try and think of it as %You aren't the only one. You just need to channel your number love into %'s. So your numbers are 10% organ, 10% heart. If you desperately want to know amounts, weigh every meal before and after and figure out how much they are eating between them each meal. Then you have an amount. You can use that to create an average for yourself (e.g. average of 40oz a week) and use the average to make your 10% from (10% of 40oz = 4oz a week of organ, 4oz of heart). But this method is actually much LESS precise than the meal approach because they will change how much they eat from meal to meal, day to day, week to week, season to season. How much they eat in the summer is vastly different from the amount they eat in the winter. Where 4oz organ might be a good "average" 10% for the summer, that same amount will then leave them deficient come winter when they double what they are eating. This is why if you always give 1.5 meals of organ, and 1.5 meals of heart on a weekly basis, you know that no matter how much or how little they are eating throughout the week, 10% of their diet is ALWAYS organ and 10% of their diet is heart. So your numbers are 10% and 1.5 meals. My husband is really excited about this. Luckily we have a nice LARGE tub to work with. And your boys sound like characters! Pepe has the wobble walk too...hehe Not too surprising with his colors. Such a cute boy. <3 There are 2 ways that you can approach a new hunt, with pros and cons to each method. 1.) One approach is you can give them live mice (one ferret, one mouse - no group hunts) and let them hunt. This is a method that many people use to teach their ferrets that whole prey is food. Often once those instincts kick in and they make the kill, they realize it is their prize and will eat it (but not always). If they don't eat it, you save the body and use it to intro whole prey just as you would with f/t. 2.) The other approach is you can teach them to eat whole prey first by starting with f/t prey, so that they learn to recognize FIRST that the mouse is food and know to hunt it. Honestly both methods work for different ferrets, and there really isn't any way to determine which is better. Though occasionally if method 1 fails and the ferret is a poor hunter, I will intro them to whole prey as food, then give them one more chance to hunt later after they realize it is food. That said, I wouldn't say that either method is better than the other - they are both just different ways to approach it. Whichever you want to try first is up to you. Yeah BAD poop week! lolIt's very likely that they were just adjusting to the new diet. It happens. I will try and re-post it every so often (maybe with the weekly updates...) so you can find it easier Perfect. I have tried bookmarking the link before but like I said it never works. It won't reload properly and I always have to go and dig up the original link. During weekly updates would be a perfect place to put the link. As of right now they are definitely infrequent and irregular. Will try to keep a better note on it in my daily journal!Sounds good. Don't feel so bad now! lolEh poop scooping is overrated! haha Just kidding! But really 2x a day is kind of overkill unless you have a large group, a tiny litter box, kibble fed ferrets, problems with odor control, or some other unusual issue. My 2 boys are both raw fed (obviously) and between the two of them one day of poop really isn't much at all.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2014 22:01:59 GMT -5
So here is a 'baseline' from here on out on weights and such. If you need later ones they are all on my doc file as well. I typically weigh on Sundays.That works for me. As long as I have a weekly menu and check in, what day it is could matter less to me. Whatever is most convenient for you! Mon AM: Turkey MM (10 oz), Chicken BI (4.4 oz), CGH BI (4.2) PM: We are not going to be home till late, hence large AM meal Tue AM: Duck BI (9.7 oz) PM: Chicken BI (9.1 oz) Wed AM: Heart beef 8.9 oz PM: BI chicken 4.1 oz Thur AM: BI duck 9.0 oz PM: BI duck 4.1 oz Fri AM: Chicken Liver 4 oz, beef kidney 4 oz PM: BI duck 4.1 oz Sat AM: BI beef 9.3 oz PM: MM chicken gizzard 6.3oz Sun AM: beef heart 4.6 oz, beef liver 4.4 oz PM: BI duck 4.1 oz I have all my meats bagged up into 4, 6, or 9 oz baggies. Turns out that's an awkward amount. Plan is I'm going to try to stick to about 10-14 oz total in meals a day, so that makes it harder to do even meals. They tend to eat better throughout the day then they do at night anyhow. But that makes the % a bit off. I did quick calculation and it puts BI at about 60%, MM 16%, heart 13%, and organs 11% (half of which is liver). So is pretty close. Also I was out of chicken! Didn't think that would ever happen! So we're eating lots of duck this week, but we still have plenty of variation so I'm not worried. Let me know if I need to make any other adjustments....
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Post by katt on May 14, 2014 1:08:13 GMT -5
That menu looks perfect! (dance) My only feedback is that if their poops seem hard or dry you can cut back on the bone a little. Bone is the trickiest thing because there's no solid number (sorry - I know you love the numbers). Each ferret is different. Some do better on 7 meals, some need 9, some even more or less! Bones your guide is their poop. My boys tend to need more bone than most, though I think their IBD contributes to that.
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