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Post by Heather on Mar 10, 2014 18:01:46 GMT -5
Name: Nicole Mizzi HF Forum Username: sunshinedaydream
1. Where did you first learn about natural diets for ferrets? through my own search for the healthiest ferret diet
2. Please describe the type of diet you would like assistance in switching your ferret(s) to. Be sure to include if you are interested in feeding whole prey (live or frozen-thawed) and if you are wanting to FULLY switch to a natural diet or PARTIALLY. If you are unsure what kind of diet you want to put your ferrets on, please express that and we can help you find the best type of natural diet for your ferret. I am currently feeding raw but I am not sure they are getting all the nutrients that they require. They are not currently eating whole prey but I would like to introduce that. I would also like help in introducing bone, I've been trying and they just don't seem to get it. I would like to keep them on a fully raw diet.
3. Why are you interested in switching your ferrets to a natural diet? They are already on a natural diet but I don't think I'm including all the required nutrients. I would like to introduce whole prey so they can get the benefit of all parts of the prey. Also, so they will be as healthy as possible.
4. Do you understand that switching your ferret to a natural diet can be a lengthy, arduous process? Its not an overnight switch. It can be a commitment of several weeks or even months. Your HF Mentor will be more then happy to assist you in switchng your ferret(s) to a natural diet, but you need to be equally as commited. If you aren't willing to tough out a potentially lengthy switching process, or if you have major life changes approaching (baby on the way, moving, starting school, getting married/divorced, etc) then it might be a better idea to wait on switching your ferret's diet until you have more time. Are you willing to make the commitment? Yes.
5. How many ferrets do you currently have? What are their names? Ages? Genders? Do they have any health problems? Are they overweight? Underweight? How long have you had each ferret for? I have three ferrets. Rhea(female), Callisto(male) and Portia(female) ages 1.5, 1.5 and 1 year old. They currently have no health issues. I've had Rhea and Callisto 1 year and Portia 7 months.
6. What diet do you currently feed your ferrets? (Please include all treats, supplements, etc) Do they already eat some form of soup? Raw chicken, liver, heart (just introduced this about a week ago), raw eggs. Started attempting to put bone meal in their boneless meats but they aren't taking to it well. They've never had soup.
7. Have you ever tried to switch your ferrets to a natural diet in the past? If yes, what happened? on raw already
8. What additional information about yourself or your ferrets would you like to share? I am already feeding raw so I guess I don't need as much help as some of the other applicants but I just want to make sure my ferrets aren't suffering from any deficiencies. There is a lot of contradicting information and I want to make sure I'm doing the right thing.
9. How often during the week do you have access to a computer? always
10. Please post a picture of each of your ferrets (if possible).
11. Have you met the requirements for this program? Do you have your scale, a place to access meats, hearts, livers, etc? Yes
Callisto & Rhea
Hi and welcome to the mentoring program (wave). In a little while your mentor (jocie529), will introduce herself and you can get started on a new adventure in natural ferret care and diets. Please remember to post regularly (daily or as per arranged with your mentor) so that your mentor can assist you move along safely in this adventure. If you experience computer difficulties or are going to be away, please notify your mentor and most of all relax and have fun (dance). Your mentor is here to help you on this journey. ciao
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2014 16:22:20 GMT -5
Hi Nicole,
Here's a little about myself:
About Me: I’m a 25 yr old Chemist. For the past 4 years, I’ve been working as a lab technician at my previous alma mater. Currently, I’m waiting to hear whether I am a accepted into grad school for a Ph.D. in Chemistry—I reallllly hope I get it. I decided not to go into grad school right after I graduated so that I could devote all my time towards making Pinky feel comfortable during his last months with us. Once I’m in grad school, I endeavor to study forensic chemistry (Drug analysis/detection) so that I may work at the DEA one day. Since the passing of my two boys, I’ve been trying to become more financially stable before I bring in another little guy into our world, because vet bills aren’t free and I don’t like asking for help.
Location: Miami, FL
I became a mentor because: To help spread the word that there is a healthier diet alternative other than kibble. As a ferrent who fed both kibble and raw meals, I can tell you the difference it will make in your ferret’s life. Moreover, if they have a health issue, a species appropriate diet will help them. I found myself in a hole when Tiny decided not to eat his kibble anymore. After searching for alternatives, I found HFF and even though my little guys experienced commercial raw for a short period of time, they’re lives were greatly impacted.
About My Ferrets: Tiny (2/12/2006-4/12/2013-Sable) Tiny was a first ferret <3 He was born on February 12, 2006. The sweetest and most docile little fert you’d ever meet. My first encounter to him was back when I turned 18 and wanted someone to love. Some called it impulsive; I called it love at first sight. Tiny was kibble fed until he was 7 yrs old. Sadly, it took him taking a turn for the worse to go online and search for an alternative diet—which is when I found HFF. Mister Tiny was a very easy transition to commercial raw, unlike his brother . Tiny suffered from both insulinoma and adrenal disease. He took prednisolone (and diazoxide later on) and had Deslorein implants every 6 months. Like any fert that has A/D: his prostate enlarged and it lead to a rigorous emergency surgery. Apparently the surgery was so complex that it involved microsurgery and the vet didn’t think he’d pull through. He did though and was titled the miracle ferret. =) Tiny was my heart ferret. He knew when I needed some love or when I was worried. He’d climb up onto the bed and sleep with me. After My surgery, he just laid down next to me. It’s like he knew. What took my heart fert away was lymphoma. His passing was too hard to handle but, I know he’s in a better place now. Pinky (11/12/2006-9/29/2013)- Das Pink, Pinkysaurus, or Pin-kehhhh. The Pinkster was born on November 12, 2006… I think. When I rescued Sir Pinks from Petco, the workers there were messing with him and kept saying how no one will buy him. After I bought him I got this Marshalls pamphlet but was told the date of birth was wrong (it said January 7, 2007 ) but I was told he was 4 months old and I just counted back and voila... a birthday. Pinky was Mr. Big personality in the house. Since Pinky was deaf, he hissed at everyone or everything at first. Of course, we didn’t know he was deaf for quite some time but it’s okay, we still loved him. Pinky was also kibble fed until he was 6 yrs old though. He was a tough transition since he was just diagnosed with insulinoma (He was on Pred and Diazoxide). With some guidance, he finally gave in and his health improved a lot with the switch. Pinky had the nose of a dog! He would be sleeping and I would peel open a banana and seconds later it’d see him tippy toeing with his nose in the air. Sadly, Pink had adrenal disease as well but not as intense as Tiny’s. He was on Des and Flutamide to decrease the size of his prostate. It wasn’t until Tiny passed that we learned about Pinky’s cardiomyopathy. We went to a cardiologist to get him on a medicine regimen (Pimobendan, Enalapril, and Lasix). Even though it helped, the Lasix and the pred/diazoxide were causing stress in his kidneys. I tried everything in my power to help pinky feel comfortable with us but, I knew when it was time. His heart became weak and it was time for him to be reunited with Tiny.
About My Natural Feeding Experience: I started feeding commercial raw early on in 2013. Due to my limited time schedule, I only know commercial raw at the moment. I have experience with both easy and difficult transitions on commercial raw with insulinomic ferrets.
My Specialty: Ferrets with insulinoma, adrenal disease, cardiomyopathy, helicobacter pylori, and some IBD and finally, both easy and difficult transitions to commercial raw.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2014 16:25:31 GMT -5
Alright, Well lets get to work! I will be needing a desciption (as detailed as possible) of your ferts current diet. What are you feeding them, and what is your feeding schedule like? (The more detail the better). Once I have a better feel of what you're feeding your little guys, we can move forward and balance out the meals properly.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2014 2:10:00 GMT -5
Hi Jocelyn! Sorry for this late response, I just saw this mssg now. Actually a few things have happened so I'll fill you in on all the details. I have 3 ferrets which have been eating raw for most of their lives, which I'm sure you already know, but a couple months ago they all started getting sick. I don't know exactly what happened but they were all vomiting so I took them to the emergency vet who said that it was the raw that was making them sick. She was not a raw supporter and recommended I switch to kibble because the daily change in diet was probably making them sick (I would give them different organs or animal parts each day). So I switched to kibble for a little while but about a week ago I started feeding them this "stew" that I made. It's raw kidney, liver, heart, muscle and bone all cubed and mixed up. Is this ok? I really wanted them back on raw but I didn't want to make them sick with the daily change in diet like my vet said was the problem. I really hope this is ok since I just cut up and bagged a ton of it, lol. But they are reluctant to switch back to the raw, but I think they will pick it up like they use to soon.
I don't actually weigh their food but I have a scale and I can in the future. I feed them twice a day. I have it measured out in a bowl to where I know they will have enough to eat now and snack on until the next meal. I try to keep them at every 12 hours, usually 8am/8pm
Also, I dont actually feed whole prey and if I can just get them on a regular healthy raw diet I will be more than happy and thank you for the response!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2014 4:19:42 GMT -5
Hi Nicole, First let me apologize... as this is going to be a very long post (nod)...
I have 3 ferrets which have been eating raw for most of their lives, which I'm sure you already know, but a couple months ago they all started getting sick. I don't know exactly what happened but they were all vomiting so I took them to the emergency vet who said that it was the raw that was making them sick.
Alright so let's first start with a few questions: 1. Who was sick. All 3 or was it only 2 of them? Did it happen around the same time? Were their stools normal during this sickness or was it runny? 2. What and how many proteins (Chicken, Beef, Cornish game hen, lamb, etc) were they being fed? 3. Did their old diet include: Organs, Bone-in meat, Hearts, and Liver? 4. Do you happen to remember what protein meal they were eating when they began vomitting? 5. How were you prepping and storing their meals before? (Chopping up meats, putting them in bags/containers, dating and freezing?) 6. The proteins you used to purchase, were they organic, no antibiotic, and not seasoned.. right? Just want to make sure
I think those are most of the questions I have swimming in my head at the moment regarding their sickness. Feeding raw does not make ferrets sick. Ferrets are obligate carnivores and their built to eat meat. Infact, they lack a cecum because they do not eat veggies or fruits in the wild, they hunt prey. So I'm asking those questions to see if maybe they became or are/were sensitive to a particular protein, which happens. But I also asked those questions because ferrets can vomit if they eat too quickly. So it could've been that or maybe a sensitivity. Your answers will help me see what it might've been.
She was not a raw supporter and recommended I switch to kibble because the daily change in diet was probably making them sick (I would give them different organs or animal parts each day).
A lot of vets are hesitant on feeding raw, although some do see the benefit of feeding raw. All vets are different. You mentioned an ER vet, do your guys have a regular vet? Was s/he aware you were feeding raw? Feeding them different organs different days could cause some upset tummies but they should adapt. But, I don't know what or how you were previously feeding them. Remember that the majority of their meals are supposed to be bone-in meals and muscle meat. But, we'll get to that part when we get there.
So I switched to kibble for a little while but about a week ago I started feeding them this "stew" that I made. It's raw kidney, liver, heart, muscle and bone all cubed and mixed up. Is this ok? I really wanted them back on raw but I didn't want to make them sick with the daily change in diet like my vet said was the problem. I really hope this is ok since I just cut up and bagged a ton of it, lol. But they are reluctant to switch back to the raw, but I think they will pick it up like they use to soon.
Okay, What kibble are they currently on? Just curious. I'm going to assume the stew is a soup and it's completely raw, correct? If so that's fine (if not let me know so we both can be on the same page). How are you getting the bone into liquid! Lol I've heard of the death of many blenders because of bones. Also! Are all of the organs/bones the same protein or all different proteins? I just re-read what I quoted, So the stew may not be a soup.. you're slicing all the organs, bones, muscle and mixing them up and feeding that? I'm a bit confused. Let me know. You may want to start from soups with slivers of meat if they're being hesistant on the raw. I also want to ask, while you're feeding this stew are they still eating kibble? If so, the kibble MUST be removed 2 hrs before feeding raw and 2 hrs after eating raw. This is recommended because kibble is digested differently from raw meats. Kibble digest slowly while raw meats will be absorbed and digested more quickly. If both were to be present in the stomach, the digestion will slow down and bacteria might become present because the digestion of the raw took longer than what it normally would. Let me know if they're on both kibble and 'stew'
I don't actually weigh their food but I have a scale and I can in the future. I feed them twice a day. I have it measured out in a bowl to where I know they will have enough to eat now and snack on until the next meal. I try to keep them at every 12 hours, usually 8am/8pm Also, I dont actually feed whole prey and if I can just get them on a regular healthy raw diet I will be more than happy and thank you for the response!
Is this before they got sick or what you're currently doing? Kibble should always be left out, unless you're going to feed raw. Kibble act differently in the body than raw does. Most kibbles, I'm going to assume this until I know what brand you're feeding, contains grains, starches, and crap ferrets actually do not need. Starches and grains are converted into sugar in the body. Think of it as eating McDonalds for all your meals. You eat fast food and your blood glucose (BG) is good for a while then you get sleepy and hungry again. It causes a BG rollercoaster because they eat enough until they feel satified then go back to their ferrety life, sleep, get hungry, ooooh the kibble is still there, eat, repeat. Their BG is constantly fluctuating and this is what causes insulinoma. The pancreas creates extra insulin and causes damage to the pancrea (causing tumors). So that's the short version of course. Sorry for the lecture but it's the truth. Many ferrents, as well as myself, have dealt with insulinomic ferrets and some general knowledge doesn't hurt. The point, almost forgot while I was typing, if the kibble isn't left out all the time, they'll get hungry but won't have kibble to eat and their BG will continue to drop until they eat. Raw is much higher in meat protein, oppose to kibble which is mainly plant protein, that their BG levels do not fluctuate as much as they do when on kibble. So this feeding every 12 hrs, what exactly is it... kibble or just the raw? Your original post mentioned switching to whole prey, but since we're starting all over again.. we'll focus on that when they're all on a well balanced diet. Finally, if you know how much raw all of them usually eat, you don't need to weigh everything out. It's all about balancing out the meals accordingly. Ferrets are self regulators, they usually don't over do it.
Hope this all helps and hope to get some answers so that I'm on the same page as you. Can't wait to start the switch back to raw! They were on raw for most of their lives and they'll learn to see it as food again.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2014 11:22:31 GMT -5
1. Who was sick. All 3 or was it only 2 of them? Did it happen around the same time? Were their stools normal during this sickness or was it runny? All of them were sick and they had normal stool. Callisto started vomiting first and by the next day they were all vomiting. It would happen shortly after they would eat. I actually suspected that it was that they were eating too fast, this was the first time they had had heart and I don't think Callisto was use to its texture, but I was scared so I kinda just did what the vet said. 2. What and how many proteins (Chicken, Beef, Cornish game hen, lamb, etc) were they being fed? They have always had cubed raw. It was chicken breast, chicken wings w/ bone, and heart when they got sick 3. Did their old diet include: Organs, Bone-in meat, Hearts, and Liver? It did, but shortly after I introduced the heart and bone in meats they got sick 4. Do you happen to remember what protein meal they were eating when they began vomiting? Chicken liver, chicken breast and i had recently introduced heart and bone in wings 5. How were you prepping and storing their meals before? (Chopping up meats, putting them in bags/containers, dating and freezing?)Exactly, chopping them up and freezing them in little baggies 6. The proteins you used to purchase, were they organic, no antibiotic, and not seasoned.. right? Just want to make sure. Yes, for sure I have a new regular vet now that I've only seen once. She is a raw supporter and was willing to help me switch them back. The kibble they were on was Epigen 90 Ferret but they aren't eating kibble at all anymore. The "stew" is completely raw and has bones in it. The bone is chicken wings cut in half. The meats are all different proteins. beef liver, chicken breast/thigh, beef meat, pork meat, chicken wings w/ bone, veal heart, beef kidney. They don't seem to need the soup stage. They seem to be accepting the raw now, they just had some for dinner. They are not getting any kibble at all any more. I know the kibble needs to be left out, I was doing that when they were eating kibble. I meant the raw was being fed twice a day now. This morning I gave them their stew with a little extra boneless chicken thighs in there because it's the organs in there that is turning them off of it. They ate that up no problem Hope I answered all the questions!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2014 23:38:55 GMT -5
All of them were sick and they had normal stool. Callisto started vomiting first and by the next day they were all vomiting. It would happen shortly after they would eat. I actually suspected that it was that they were eating too fast, this was the first time they had had heart and I don't think Callisto was use to its texture, but I was scared so I kinda just did what the vet said.
I have a feeling it was probably the consistency. You mentioned that it was a new organ and it having a different texture to lets say chicken breast, it probably just that or they all just ate it too fast. I've heard of some ferts loving heart so maybe they did and inhaled it. The other outcome could be that they have a sensitivity that specific protein, but you said their stools were normal. The last outcome would be that it was a bad batch of hearts? I could've been a contagious illness but ECE would be green stools. Stools give us an indication of what's happening in their systems.
How long were they sick for? Was it only right after they ate the bone/hearts or was it for a longer period of time? The vomitting, what did it look like? How long did that last? I just want details to make sure it's not an allergy or sensitivity and just wondering since you didnt mention it. Let me know all the details
They have always had cubed raw. It was chicken breast, chicken wings w/ bone, and heart when they got sick
Hmm, stools were consistent with that of raw meat eating ferrets while eating chicken?
4. Do you happen to remember what protein meal they were eating when they began vomiting? Chicken liver, chicken breast and i had recently introduced heart and bone in wings
This is making me think on the size of the bones. Were they smashed up into small pieces or was it whole bone? I was thinking maybe a piece might've scratched their throats but the probability of that happening to all 3 is making me think otherwise. Did they have another source of protein back then or was it just chicken?
5. How were you prepping and storing their meals before? (Chopping up meats, putting them in bags/containers, dating and freezing?)Exactly, chopping them up and freezing them in little baggies 6. The proteins you used to purchase, were they organic, no antibiotic, and not seasoned.. right? Just want to make sure. Yes, for sure I have a new regular vet now that I've only seen once. She is a raw supporter and was willing to help me switch them back
Awesome! Just making sure that all the batches were stored well and that no introduction of bacteria on the meats was introduced on your behalf. Just trying to narrow down what it could've been. Glad the vet is pro-raw! They're very rare but glad she'll be helping you as well.
The kibble they were on was Epigen 90 Ferret but they aren't eating kibble at all anymore. The "stew" is completely raw and has bones in it. The bone is chicken wings cut in half. The meats are all different proteins. beef liver, chicken breast/thigh, beef meat, pork meat, chicken wings w/ bone, veal heart, beef kidney. They don't seem to need the soup stage. They seem to be accepting the raw now, they just had some for dinner. They are not getting any kibble at all any more. Epigen 90 is a very good kibble. Good call (giggle) Now since they're no longer on kibble, (dance), now let's get to the raw talking. This stew, how much do you have left? The reason I'm asking is because I want to help you balance out their meals. We generally plan out a whole weeks worth of meals. Since they're getting 2 meals per day, that means they will receive 14 meals a week. 7-9 of those should be bone-in meals, 1.5 should be heart meals, and 1.5 should be half liver and half of another organ. The bone-in meals vary based on their stools. Too runny means more bone-in meals, but too dry means to back off of a bone meal. The thing with you mixing up all the organs is that you cannot monitor what they're eating. One could eat more muscle, while one eats all the hearts and liver, etc. The balancing out of the meals helps you know that they got a specific protein or organ. Here's an example:
Sunday AM: Chicken thigh bone-in PM: Beef Hearts Monday AM:Turkey neck PM:Cornish game hen legs and thighs Wednesday AM:Chicken liver PM:Turkey thighs Thursday AM:Half chicken hearts/half beef kidneys PM:Chicken wings Friday AM:Duck feet with ground turkey PM:Pork chops Saturday AM:Rabbit backs PM:Rabbit legs
This is just an example of what I'm talking about. Each meal will be one specific item to ensure that they're getting each organ equally. Since you have all the organs mixed up at the moment, Keep feeding that until it's done.
This morning I gave them their stew with a little extra boneless chicken thighs in there because it's the organs in there that is turning them off of it. They ate that up no problem Awesome that they're getting back in the game! But organs can be a hard thing to get them to like. So, IF you can eye ball and pick out the hearts and make it into a thick soup and cover the proteins they're eating up, maybe we can slowly get them to eat all the heart or whatever organ is it that they're not liking. It's all about bribing or deceiving their senses. If you have extra virgin olive oil or grizzly salmon oil you can add a bit of it of it to the hearts or whatever the organ is that they don't like. Don't over do it though. It will cause runny stools. Let me know if you can't pick out the disliked organ from the mix.
Let me know if you have any questions. Don't be afraid to ask me anything. Hope to hear from you soon.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2014 0:34:42 GMT -5
How long were they sick for? Was it only right after they ate the bone/hearts or was it for a longer period of time? The vomiting, what did it look like? How long did that last? The vomiting never happened after those couple days that they had the new food. It pretty much looked like partially digested food, runny and kinda chunky, but it never happened again even when I recently fed them the same foods. I was worried since I suspected the heart as the culprit but I guess they just took their time this time and no one choked or anything. I know I mentioned that event but I'm not too concerned with it since it was a one time thing and they were perfectly fine the next day.
I actually have a ton of that stew left. I didn't get an email notification of my acceptance into the mentor program or I would not have made so much, oops! I had the same concerns about them each liking different things and only eating those and I wouldn't really know. It's just I hated feeding them the kibble (even though it was the best I could find) since they smell, poop waaaay more and their skin is so dry they're always scratching. I think the stew will last a while though. I've got them in freezer bags so once I get all the things for their new meals I can just put the stew to the side for a little while.
They don't seem to hate the organs as much as they did before which is nice. They are eating it just fine which is very surprising. Things they don't like: bone and bone powder. Once in a while I'll catch one gnawing on one but usually they just eat around it. I crack them in half so they know there's good stuff inside. They also refuse to pull anything off the bone so I take most of the meet off and leave them in their bowls but only rarely do they pay them any attention. This made me concerned that they weren't getting enough calcium so I started putting bone powder on their food and they refused to eat it no matter how little but I did put a tiny bit on their dinner today and they didn't seem to mind. I think this is really my only problem with compliance on their end.
I try to get as many animals and different parts as I can from my local market but there are a couple things I have never seen in the store. Like rabbit and duck or turkey necks. Are these things that you would think a butcher would carry? I know there are some withing driving distance from me I just don't know if those animals are things that a place like that would normally carry.
2 of my kids absolutely love salmon oil and my boy hates it so much. He just sniffs it and then freaks out and rubs his nose everywhere to get even the smell off. The extra virgin olive oil though, I've never tried that before. If I give that should I not give salmon oil? Also, how often should salmon oil be given. I just want to make sure I'm not giving them too much. I started using it as a treat as well.
I do have one other question. I've always wanted to give them raw eggs since they seem like a great protein rich meal but the first time I tried to feed Rhea and Callisto one Rhea vomited it up shortly after so I didn't give it again but that was more than a year ago. A few months ago I thought I would try again and gave one all the kids and Portia, who seemed to love it, vomited it up a little later. Is there something in there that they could be allergic too? Should I maybe try just giving the yolk or do you think it's not worth it? They were regular chicken eggs, I've looked around my area and can't find a supplier for quail eggs or anything like that.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2014 1:55:51 GMT -5
This sickness was for a fleeting moment and was probably them eating too quickly if they haven't vomitted recently with their raw stew.
I actually have a ton of that stew left. I didn't get an email notification of my acceptance into the mentor program or I would not have made so much, oops!
That's okay! Lol I didn't either and the thread was floating in the abyss for a few days until we finally found it. So I don't blame you. I was hoping you didnt have much left but still had a feeling that you did. Did you separate each bag by meal or did you separate it by day? I was wondering if you could potentially separate some of the contents but still use up your stew mixture. For example:
Day 1: Am: MIX Pm: boneless meat
Day 2: Am: MIX PM: heart
Day 3: Am: MIX PM: liver
Day 4: Am: Mix PM: bone-in meat
Day 5: Am: MIX PM: boneless meat
Day 6: Am: MIX PM: boneless meat
Day 7: Am: MIX PM: Bone-in meat
This way, you can know that they're all getting the essentials per day. I'm counting the mixture as partial bone-in, partial heart and liver. Now, you mentioned they don't like bones. How small are you chopping them up? I've had mentees take a meat tenderizing mallet to the bones until they're small. Some add the bones to a thick soup of something they like to bribe them into eating the bone. If they still do not like this, you can add powder eggshells to their food. Just use up your egg as you normally do but wash and store them. When you have enough, grind them up into powder using a coffee grinder. You can add 1/4-1/2 tsp of powdered eggshell to what they like and see if they'd prefer this instead. If they're still not loving the eggshells, make sure the powder is wet enough that it sticks to the meat.
2 of my kids absolutely love salmon oil and my boy hates it so much. He just sniffs it and then freaks out and rubs his nose everywhere to get even the smell off. The extra virgin olive oil though, I've never tried that before. If I give that should I not give salmon oil? Also, how often should salmon oil be given. I just want to make sure I'm not giving them too much. I started using it as a treat as well. I've always wanted to give them raw eggs since they seem like a great protein rich meal but the first time I tried to feed Rhea and Callisto one Rhea vomited it up shortly after so I didn't give it again but that was more than a year ago
Oils are great as a treat. The Rule of Thumb pn oil is No MORE than 1tsp per ferret every 3 days. So take that 1 tsp spread it out as you like as long as poops are good. They can have a few licks daily and 1/2 tsp added to their meats. Completely up to you but monitor their stools. Eggs on the other hand are fed whole and given every other 3 days. I think the consistency of the egg is causing them to gag and throw up. What you can do is crack an egg open, whisk it until the Albumen, of the clear part of the egg, isn't as gooey. I think this is what caused them to vomit. I recently fed my sisters dog a raw dog and it was this that was causing him to gag. I had to whisk it some more. What you can do is after you thaw out the stew mix, separate what you'll be feeding in the night meal (organ, heart, bone), then whatever is left of the mix, cut them into smaller slivers and add the whisked egg to the mixture. It should help them lick up the egg and meats.
So let me know if you can separate an organ out of the mixture per day. If so, maybe we can set up a temporary meal so that they're all getting an organ, muscle, or bone a day alongside with a mixed stew.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2014 22:16:39 GMT -5
I have them separated by meal.It would be hard to separate because everything kinda looks the same since there's so many different things in there. But I think that it will be ok for a while being stored in the freezer so I'll just do the morning stews like you said and cut up fresh for the evening feedings. I fed the stew this morning which they ate without much fuss, one whisked egg for them to share which they absolutely loved (no vomit!) and I gave boneless chicken thighs for dinner which is their favorite boneless meat. As a side note I also have gizzards in the stew, I think I forgot to mention that when I told you the ingredients before. I was hoping I could get by with their diet being animals that I could buy at my local market but I will have to call some butchers in the area tomorrow and ask if they sell duck and rabbit. I tried the eggshell thing before and they hated it more than the powder but I think I mentioned before that I put a little powder on their meal yesterday and they didn't seem to mind. I usually don't smash them into pieces, just use a cleaver to make each chicken wing 4 bone pieces. so they're not too small but I guess I'm scared that if I cut them too small they will try to eat it like normal food and swallow a whole piece and choke or something. Is that something I don't really have to be concerned about? I put the whiscked egg into the little bit of their stew that was left later in the day and they ate all the egg and the little bit of leftover stew as well
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 1:48:39 GMT -5
I have them separated by meal.It would be hard to separate because everything kinda looks the same since there's so many different things in there. But I think that it will be ok for a while being stored in the freezer so I'll just do the morning stews like you said and cut up fresh for the evening feedings. I fed the stew this morning which they ate without much fuss, one whisked egg for them to share which they absolutely loved (no vomit!) and I gave boneless chicken thighs for dinner which is their favorite boneless meat. As a side note I also have gizzards in the stew, I think I forgot to mention that when I told you the ingredients before. I was hoping I could get by with their diet being animals that I could buy at my local market but I will have to call some butchers in the area tomorrow and ask if they sell duck and rabbit.
That's okay if you can't separate the organs from the mix. I was wondering if you could buy additional hearts, liver, and kidneys to feed as a separate meal. The outline I gave was just an simple example we could follow until the stew mix is gone. The minimum number of proteins to feed is 3. So, it doesn't precisely have to be rabbit or duck. That example was more detailed and specified what protein was given and what organ/bone was fed and at which meal. We'll get there. But, proteins can be chicken, beef, lamb, pork, cornish game hen, goat, duck, turkey, rabbit to name a few. My previous mentee found rabbit and ducks at her local asian market. You can find chicken, pork and beef at local supermarkets although, when it comes to organs, that may be hard. I can find chicken hearts but I had a difficult time finding livers or other organs here in miami. As long as they're all getting 3 sources of protein, they should be fine. The days after thanksgiving is when all the ferrents go and stock up on turkeys at a cheaper price. Not sure if you have some asian markets or butchershops around your area, but some of them tend to have organs. Some of our members have become bffs with their local butchers and they save some of the organs for them. lol. When it comes to protein sources on bones, make sure you have at least 3 sources. You don't want them to have only 1 source of bones and later on get a sensitivity to that specific protein and have to introduce a new source of bone protein, not that it will happen just a back up strategy.
Glad to hear that they ate eggs without vomitting! (dance) That's great! It was probably the consistency before. Gizzards are great for jaw strength and for cleaning teeth! So that's awesome that you have some available. Gizzards are considered muscle meat, just letting you know. We have a thread that list different types of organs, holisticferret60.proboards.com/thread/13628/defines-nutritional-organ-meat , just incase you wanted a list of it.
I tried the eggshell thing before and they hated it more than the powder but I think I mentioned before that I put a little powder on their meal yesterday and they didn't seem to mind. I usually don't smash them into pieces, just use a cleaver to make each chicken wing 4 bone pieces. so they're not too small but I guess I'm scared that if I cut them too small they will try to eat it like normal food and swallow a whole piece and choke or something. Is that something I don't really have to be concerned about? I put the whiscked egg into the little bit of their stew that was left later in the day and they ate all the egg and the little bit of leftover stew as well
I thought I read that you added bonemeal powder to their meals. Unless they're all eating bone, you have to add either eggshell or bonemeal powder to their meals. You can cut up the bone with a cleaver, just be careful of course. I mentioned using a meat tenderizing mallet to make the bones a bit smaller in size. Don't feel scared about feeding bones of any size. Ferrets are more likely to choke on kibble than they would on raw bones. Furthermore, their throats have thick skin in their esophagus. You have to keep in mind that this is what they are designed to eat. I remember when I first heard my first bone crunch, I thought they broke a tooth! Lol. Unlike cooked bones that splinter, raw bones break. The broken raw edges are smoothed by the stomach acid, the acids smooth down the edges and the rounded edges of the ingested bone act as a scrub brush. They massage and stimulate the intestinal lining and "scrub/clean" it. You have to think of this: are the bones their chewing less sharp as they are when you are crushing them for them? All crushed bones may or do have sharp edge. Again, them choking on them is a very low possibility . Just to reassure you, Here are some videos on a ferret munching on cornish game hen and the other is a polecat munching on a deer:
And since I'm a chemist, lol, I thought I'd show you a video of a bird skull in hydrochloric acid. Our stomach, as well as ferrets, have hydrochloric acid as part of our stomach acids.
I'm happy to hear that they loved the egg and still ate up some of the stew. Remember to leave the food out at all time, but I'm sure you do that already. Great work! Keep it up and let me know if you can get addition organs and how many protein sources you have. I think you might've mentioned them but I'm not 100% sure. Let me know! (wave)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2014 20:54:36 GMT -5
Alrighty. I fed some heart tonight that I had left over so I still need to make it to the store. Hopefully tomorrow I’ll make a trip to my regular market. I looked and I can’t find a butcher near me and the closet Asian market is kind of a drive. I am planning on going to the Asian market this weekend to see what I can find but I have no problem finding lots of organs at my regular market. So beef, pork and chicken are ok? I read somewhere that pork was bad but I can’t remember why… I hope they were wrong though because it’s easy to find. And for the beef, is it ok to buy ground beef? I read that it’s bad for their teeth because it coats them and they’re more likely to get cavities and such. But maybe it’s ok if I only feed it once a week or so? I currently only have bone in meals from chicken but I will see what I can find in that area as well. Cornish hens are perfect, I will definitely be picking some of those up as well. Thanks, I feel better about the bone now. I was never really sure about that. That ferret in the second video was so enthusiastic about that meat! I tried getting them to eat things with the meat still on the bone but it wasn’t happening. I would mostly just have them drag the large piece off and never eat it and the entire thing would be gross under my bed or something. I think a meal box or something would be necessary if I were to try that again. I tried zip tying chicken legs to something stationary but they kind of just looked at me like “Mom, when are you gonna cut this up so we can eat it?!”. I will try crushing them next time though. I think they like the taste it’s just so different than all their normal food. I have been putting the bone powder on but only a little to ease them into it because they use to refuse it completely. Should I be putting that on all their meals or just the ones that should include bone? And how much would you say totally for three ferrets since they all eat out of the same bowl? You said a good schedule for the eggs is one every three days but would that be one egg per ferret every three days? Last time I just gave one egg in a bowl to all of them so they really only had 1/3 of an egg each. And yes, I leave the food out all day and of course they have their stashes around the room as well.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 5:26:15 GMT -5
I fed some heart tonight that I had left over so I still need to make it to the store. Hopefully tomorrow I’ll make a trip to my regular market. I looked and I can’t find a butcher near me and the closet Asian market is kind of a drive. I am planning on going to the Asian market this weekend to see what I can find but I have no problem finding lots of organs at my regular market
Awesome! How'd they do on hearts? No getting sick, right? Regarding a butcher, I don't have one near me so don't feel bad. I just found an asian supermarket the other day. Might be useful in the future for me. I fed my 2 guys commercial raw because of my time constraint. Glad you have lots of organs at your market, it's tough finding anything other than chicken hearts here. Very lucky!
So beef, pork and chicken are ok? I read somewhere that pork was bad but I can’t remember why… I hope they were wrong though because it’s easy to find. And for the beef, is it ok to buy ground beef?
Beef, pork and chicken are completely fine. The more protein you feed, the better. Pork is actually very good in fat. They need high fatty protein because they store the fat for energy. Ground beef is fine for them to eat. You can feed it like once a week and try feeding gizzards or bones so that they're teeth get a good cleaning. If they're fed raw grinds, like ground beef, only their teeth start to get tartar build up. You can brush their teeth 2-3 times a week or feed something tough (like gizzards, bones, cartilage, or feet) to rub against their teeth, especially their molars--That's where the tartar likes to build up.
I currently only have bone in meals from chicken but I will see what I can find in that area as well. Cornish hens are perfect, I will definitely be picking some of those up as well.
That's fine for now. Whenever you happen to find other protein bone-in sources, you can add them to their diet. Cornish hens are great by the way! Not sure if they sell them whole over there but my last mentee scored a few whole cornish hens and chopped them up and fed them in quarters. When it comes to bones, it only counts as bone-in IF they actually eat the bones. Bone-in could be wings, ribs, thighs (in poultry they're rich in taurine), backs, necks, and feet (with feet you have to add boneless meat since the feet have no muscle meat).
Thanks, I feel better about the bone now. I was never really sure about that. That ferret in the second video was so enthusiastic about that meat! I tried getting them to eat things with the meat still on the bone but it wasn’t happening. I would mostly just have them drag the large piece off and never eat it and the entire thing would be gross under my bed or something. I think a meal box or something would be necessary if I were to try that again. I tried zip tying chicken legs to something stationary but they kind of just looked at me like “Mom, when are you gonna cut this up so we can eat it?!”. I will try crushing them next time though. I think they like the taste it’s just so different than all their normal food. I have been putting the bone powder on but only a little to ease them into it because they use to refuse it completely. Should I be putting that on all their meals or just the ones that should include bone? And how much would you say totally for three ferrets since they all eat out of the same bowl?
No problem. I was scared of feeding bones as well. We're taught that bones are bad, especially with dogs. But they don't always tell you that they mean not to feed cooked bones to dogs because they splinter. Something HFF taught me. Now, feeding dens. I personally never had to have one made but I've seen other member with feeding dens. They're usually a cardboard box or a plastic storage bin. Let me ask some of our mentors regarding their experiences with feeding dens and I'll get back to you on that. I would add at least 1/2 tsp of bonemeal or eggshell powder PER every 8 oz of meat to their meat if they're being "lazy" about getting the meat off of the bones. We may need to gradually introduce bone as food by chopping them up into small enough pieces that they stick to the meat and they accidently chomp on them lol. The commercial raw I fed had some cut up ground bone in it. About 1-2 mm wide. Dunno if you can get bone that small without grinding it but I'm hoping if they're small, and were sitting with meat and an egg that they'd show more enthusiasm towards bones. When you crush up the bones, let me know how they do with smaller sized bones.
You said a good schedule for the eggs is one every three days but would that be one egg per ferret every three days? Last time I just gave one egg in a bowl to all of them so they really only had 1/3 of an egg each. And yes, I leave the food out all day and of course they have their stashes around the room as well
Oops, I might've left out the per ferret part when I typed it out. It's 1 egg per ferret every 3 days or every week. Monitor their stools, make sure that one of them isn't going to town on the whisked egg. You can tell if they have because their stools will be runny. Egg are a great source of protein, vitamins, and good during shedding season. So you can give 3 eggs, but make sure that their stools remain normal. If one is hogging up the eggs, reduce it by one to be on the safe side. I've seen some people feed their ferts out in their kitchens and their ferts run off with food, some feed them specifically in their cages, some have feeding dens. I will ask all the mentors regarding the feeding dens and let you know when I have more than a few replies.
Let me know how the shopping trip goes. I know what you mean with stores being out of the way. The pet store I bought my commercial raw was completely out of the way for me. Long trip and traffic. It was a planned day when I had to restock. Maybe you can call the asian market and see what they have available if you're comforable calling. If you ever have any questions while you're out shopping, shoot me an email: Jmart157@fiu.edu. I have that email linked directly to my phone and I will answer your shopping questions faster than I would if you asked here and me missing your post. OH by the way, what time zone are you located at? I'm in Miami and my time zone is currently EDT (eastern daylight time). Just curious since your post are at night for me. It's okay though, I'm a night owl.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2014 14:48:35 GMT -5
Yeah, no vomiting or anything with the hearts. I wish I had chicken hearts! The only heart I can find anywhere is veal heart and it is the size of my head. Smaller hearts would make things much easier but I’m happy I can find what I can. They had chicken livers for the first time last night and as excited as they were for their dinner they tried to turn their noses up at it. But their tummies eventually got the better of them and they all ate and it was almost completely gone by morning. Good to know about the teeth in regards to grinds. I actually bought them a toothbrush and paste set but admittedly only did it a couple times. I think I’ll hunt that thing down soon. I think they sell whole Cornish hens by me, I’m pretty sure I’ve seen them. I made a trip to the market and got some chicken livers (the live in their stew is beef) and pork ribs! I never thought to feed ribs before but I will make that my next bone-in meal. I think I’ll try to mash the bones up with a meat tenderizer. Callisto was going to town on a chicken bone he found in the stew this morning so I guess this transition won’t be too bad after all. I saw some chicken feet as well that I plan on getting next time if I can remember. “I would add at least 1/2 tsp of bonemeal or eggshell powder PER every 8 oz of meat to their meat if they're being "lazy" about getting the meat off of the bones.” So… would that be only to the bone-in meals or all meals? Thanks for looking into the feeding box thing. They’re ok now but if I did something like chop a Cornish hen in quarters I would definitely need something like that. They all really like eating in empty soda 12 pack boxes but I have to throw them away after a little while so it doesn’t get all smelly and filled with bacteria. And I can only drink so much soda, lol. Thanks for separate contact info, I may just use it lol. I’m in Chicago so I’m actually only about an hour different I think. I am a full time nursing student and volunteer part time at a ferret shelter near me so I take my free moments when I can get them lol. I usually read what you write pretty quick but actually sitting down to type a response sometimes has to wait until the evening.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2014 21:03:22 GMT -5
Can you also give me a weekly diet that would not include the stew? I plan on doing some shopping this weekend and hopefully get all or most of the things they would normally be eating. Thanks!
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