looks good. I take it when you state "Chicken Thigh or Drumstick" it is bone in? How is copper doing with eating bones? Is he chewing them up himself or are you smashing the bones a bit to make it easier for him?
Have you looked at the poop chart? One of the biggest adjustments new raw feeders have to make is how variable a raw ferrets poops are. Kibble ferrants are taught that any change is potentially bad while a raw ferrent has to have a muck larger poop "vocabulary".
Yes the drumsticks and thigh are bone in. Cooper eats bone really well. With his chicken wings he eats them completely down to the smallest bone but I always remove those from the cage because they look sharp lol. But he does eat basically all the bone in wings.
So for a meal, is 2oz of soup 2 times a day enough, or should I try to squeeze in maybe a third time in the middle of the day? I think they were super hungry today and are a lot because they did a hunger strike yesterday lol. And I have seen the poop chart, but I will be looking at it again now that I'm raw feeding to check. Sometimes it's hard to tell which poop belongs to who in the cage lol!
Also, I'm trying to get more bone in meats. I have pork necks, pork shoulder, beef bone, chicken thigh, chicken wings, chicken drumstick, and turkey drumstick. I recently found a meat market near me that has a ton of variety so I'll be looking there for more things to get. I'm trying to find things similar to chicken wings, as that is currently his favorite. I also think I need to start smashing the bone as you mentioned. What tool would be best to do this with? I don't have a cleaver but I can get one. I've never chopped bone before lol
As for the other two, 4 oz a day is actually quite a bit. My 2 girls eat that between the two of them. The only way we can know if it is a enough is to keep an eye on their weight but my guess is that they are fine eating that much.
Bone in meats mean bones they can actually consume. If they can't eat the bones then they don't count. Basically poultry is what you are stuck with. You can try pork button bones or rib ends but generally they can't eat those until their jaws are stronger. Try looking for quail or Cornish game hens in your grocery store's frozen meat section. They are perfectly sized for ferrets.
Smashing the bones up is really only necessary if they are just learning. Copper doesn't sound like he needs it You can use the back of a heavy knife / cleaver or even a hammer.
Last Edit: Mar 4, 2014 11:17:09 GMT -5 by bitbyter
Thanks for answering all of my questions. It's helping me so much and making me feel more confident about this process.
And good to know about the bones for cooper. I'm so proud of him, but also of the others for eating a good amount today. Finley ate off the plate at both his meals today. I did have to get him started with the spoon, but he finished it from the plate. Oliver I'm still giving the spoon to, but I am trying to lower it slowly and put it on the plate. But he didn't fight me about eating either time so that's good lol. I'd say they each ate about 3 - 3 1/2oz today, which is really good considering they normally don't want that much. I've been trying to make them more hungry by playing with them a lot and burning energy.
Cooper of course ate well too. I'm not sure if this is ok or not but for his PM meal I put his food in the cage around 8-9 PM and he sometimes just goes to sleep and doesn't end up eating it until the middle of the night into early morning. Is that normal? Should I feed it to him earlier?
Sounds like things are progressing well for the soup eaters . As for Cooper, yes let him eat on his own schedule. I actually only feed once a day in winter (am / pm alternating weeks) and then twice a day in the summer (cuts down on how fast things go bad). Sometimes they eat right way, other times they take a few licks and then come back to eat later. This is why getting know how much they normally eat is important. You only feed them that specific amount and then if you get left overs for two days in a row then you know something is up and can start looking into who isn't eating / feeling well. You just have to keep reminding yourself that as long as they don't have insulinoma, raw fed ferrets can go much, much longer without food than kibble ferrets.
Wait until they start getting difficult and trying to manipulate you into only feeding what they want (skipping meals they don't want to eat, hiding less favourite meats, etc). They are just like toddlers sometimes when it comes to food. They will actually skip meals to try and make you give in to what they want to eat.
Last Edit: Mar 4, 2014 11:24:12 GMT -5 by bitbyter
Take a closer look at Coopers meal plan. You really need to weight everything you give him and weigh any leftovers. I have a sneaky feeling you might be feeding to much organ (live & kidney) but we can't know that until you have zeroed in on his daily amount. Remember that organ only needs to be half a meal a week (a meal being how much he eats a day). So for example if he eats 4 oz a day that is 1 oz of liver and 1 oz of other organ per week.
Thanks! Today Finley ate off his plate again inside his cage, so that's good. Oliver I still had to spoon feed/convince, but he is getting better and easier to feed every day. Lol sneaky ferrets! I can already imagine that my ferrets are going to be very manipulative with this process, as they already have been a bit lol.
And for the weighing Cooper's food. So, for example, if I give him a chicken drumstick, I should weigh it before he eats it and then once again after he is finished to see how much is left/how much he actually ate? I actually switched a few small things on the previous meal plan for this week. I realized afterward that I had not added in a meal of heart (which I think I read it necessary to have one full meal of heart). So I added that in. I will keep the organ info in mind. Definitely don't want to feed him too much of it.
Yes, weigh everything you give them in a day and weigh any leftovers. That is the only way to know how much they are eating and get a good sense of what is "normal" for them. As Cooper is still a kit, he is basically a furry tummy with teeth. Don't be alarmed if he suddenly starts eating less. Also, the amounts they eat vary from season to season (more in winter, less in summer). Some ferrets can also have their seasons backwards (depending on when they were born). My Wilma is a backwards ferret (eats lots in summer and has a long coat, eats less in winter and has a short coat).
It is really a good idea to keep a log of their food weights and actual body weights. Even once you are graduated, keep recording food weights for a few weeks each season. This will give you valuable information to compare against in the future. It is also good practise to weigh them at least once a month and record it to know what their seasonal weights should be.
From my experience with my girls I know 4 to 4.5 oz is what they need each day regardless of season because Wilma is backwards. So in summer Socks generally only eats a single oz a day and Wilma polishes off the rest. In Winter Wilma only eats 1 to 1.5 oz and Socks eats the rest. You really can see how much their diets vary from winter to summer.
Last Edit: Mar 5, 2014 21:56:34 GMT -5 by bitbyter
Kk so I started weighing last night. I gave Cooper 3oz of chicken breast, and this morning I removed it from the cage and there was 0.8oz left (a small chunk of meat). So he ate the majority of it. I actually put his liver/kidney meal in the cage this morning but it's now the afternoon and he hasn't eaten much of it.
Right now the other two are eating about 4oz a day, but i'm going to continue weighing their soup if they end up leaving leftovers. Still working on them eating off the plate. Finley was eating off the plate for a few days, but I still had to get him started and dab a bit on his mouth. Oliver I am still holding and spoon feeding. I don't want to push him too much and stress him out, but I also want him to eat dang it lol. He eats about 2oz in the morning and night of soup (4oz total for the day, sometimes slightly less), but he still seems really uncomfortable with the food lol. Like he gets physically nervous about eating when I bring the soup in the room lol. He also shivers sometimes when I'm feeding him.
Oh yes and I should also mention they haven't had any kibble in about 5 days now. Just eating the soup twice a day at the moment.
I went to the market today and they had some things they don't normally have that I grabbed for the ferts (mostly Cooper lol). I grabbed beef ox tail, beef liver, and beef marrow or something. I'm not sure if they can eat the last item, as it looks like primarily bone and very, very thick lol. Can they eat the marrow part of chew on it? Or is that a no go? I can post a picture of it if needed.
Ok Oliver sounds a lot like my Socks at the beginning. Socks was totally a private eater. She absolutely refused to eat in front of me or even if I was holding her. She'd talk a lick of soup into her mouth and then struggle to go eat it somewhere private. You might want to make a feeding den for Oliver. It might help. I'll post a video of the ones I made for them.
Ox tail is fine. The bones are to hard for them but the meat is fine. Beef liver is fine. Marrow bones they can only eat the marrow but it is an awesome source of fat. Also, if you've never tried marrow bones, pop a few in the oven, roast them up and then spread the marrow on some nice crusty bread toast. Yuuuuumy!
Here is a video of my girls during their switch eating out of feeding dens I made. You don't have to make anything like these. A cardboard box secured to the sides of the cage or where-ever you feed is fine. Alternatively you could just put his plate in a larger box with him and see if that works.
Wilma looks awfully thin in this video and Socks (on the left) had rat tail then. This was back when I was just starting to figure out Wilma's digestive issues.
Last Edit: Mar 6, 2014 14:33:53 GMT -5 by bitbyter
Thanks for the tip. Yes, I think Oliver is going to be a more private eater. When he was eating kibble, he would take one piece and run away to eat it elsewhere. I actually planned on making a feeding den but wasn't really sure how to go about it. I tried using a plastic bin and I cut a hole in it for them to go in and out but they started using it as a litter box lol. I'd like to try making one within the cage and attaching it somewhere. Not sure if I'm up for some marrow lol! I actually don't eat much meat so this has all been a learning experience. I'm not a vegetarian or anything, just never took a big liking to meat. Just the basics lol chicken and hamburger meat haha.
I noticed today that they tend not to want their soup if it's cold. I don't want to microwave it though. Are there other ways to warm it up? I have put soup in a bowl and put the bowl in warm water for a few minutes. Also, I almost feel like they don't understand that it's meal time. I still have to hold them and spoon feed them for the most part, and I've been doing this twice daily for like two weeks now lol. I'd like to start being able to put the soup in their cage on different levels and have them just go at it, but they either don't understand that it's food still or don't know that it's meal time. Finley eats off the plate a little bit if I really work at it, but still overall acts funny and pulls away when I'm trying to feed him lol. I don't mind spoon feeding them, but just curious about when they will understand/actually want the food lol.
I've also been weighing Cooper's food. Last night I put a 6oz chicken drumstick in the cage for him for dinner, this morning I weighed what was left. There was 2.5oz left. Didn't really seem like he got to the bone much either. Also, out of his 4oz of chicken liver and pork kidney, he left behind 2.3oz. This is confusing lol! I'm just paranoid that I'm doing something wrong somewhere haha.
Ok, with Cooper just keep weighing. Once you have a week or so of data you'll be able to tell if you are feeding to much or not. If you are, just scale back to exactly what he is eating or a little bit more.
For the other two, you can try some type of meal signal that it is food time. I put their food on the upper level of the cage and then thump the floor of the cage. They soon learned the that sound meant there was food on the top floor of the cage. You could try a squeaky toy, a bell, knocking on the wall, etc. Anything to get their attention. Also, if you are overfeeding in the morning then they are going to be less interested in the evening. Maybe try cutting back a little bit in the morning and feeding an hour or two later in the evening to see if that peaks their interest.
A switch is slow going sometimes. It can feel like one step forward and two steps back. Mine took approximately about 1.5 months from start to finish. I found it was all about observation and thinking about how to work with them during the switch. It is all new to them and you so you have to figure out together what works best for them. Not to be discouraging but some switches can take a loooong time...up to a year. I'm not seeing any signs that is going to be the case here but you have to be aware of that.
Another thing to keep in mind is that they aren't going to starve if you skip a meal. If they generally don't seem interested, don't force them. Leave it with them (during the day or over night) and see what happens (Oliver may eat it on his own when in private). I really only suggest scruff and stuff if they have skipped a meal and are refusing to eat the next because it can associate negative experiences with meal time.
As for the soup temp, I found room temp or a little above was fine. What is the consistency of your soup? I noticed in the videos you posted in your other thread it seems a little thin. Starting out it should be the consistency of thick cream and you slowly increase the thickness over time (until it is like a thick pate). If it is to thin they end up filling up on mostly water.
Last Edit: Mar 7, 2014 11:47:24 GMT -5 by bitbyter
I really like the idea of a signal for meal time! I am also going to try feeding a bit less in the morning in hopes that they will be more hungry at night. Right now my soup is probably a bit on the thin side. I have to make another batch today and so I'm going to try to make it a bit thicker. Right now with the last couple of batches I'd say it's probably a thick cream consistency, but I feel like they might be ready for a "thick pate" as you mentioned. They've been eating the same creamy consistency for awhile now so I think it's time. I also noticed both Oliver and Finley trying to bite the spoon a bit if I am spoon feeding them. They started doing this the last couple of days. Could that mean they are starting to instinctively try to bite at/chew as if it were actual meat or is it just a habit?
As for the soup thickness, I am using the standard soup recipe from the thread on here. Do you have any recommendations for the amount of water to thicken it up (i.e. how much would be too much, etc.)? Also, I'm going to try to get going on a feeding den today as well.
I should also mention I have a lot of time at the moment as I am not working. I recently received my bachelor's and have had trouble finding work in my field (English) and so I've sort of been laying low while my husband is working lol. So I have lots of time that I've been dedicating to the ferts and their progress.