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Post by fretki on Feb 14, 2014 14:09:38 GMT -5
I'm glad Fred's poops are within the normal range! As long as they don't get really funky poops, with a lot of color change; projectile or diarrhea, it is fine. Organs and also hearts tend to bring darker poop, a lot of fat intake may come out very greyish at the other end... How many different protein are you already feeding? CGH, chicken and lamb? Don't rush with the variety, their digestive systems still need to figure out how to digest different proteins properly I've been asking for treats/oils, because sometimes a bit of a favorite oil on a piece of organ or heart my help to motivate them to at least lick it off the meat. Oil is also a natural flavor enhancer so eating meat with oil makes it more tasty. Or if they have a favorite freeze dried treat, you can stick it in a chicken heart, so they have to pull it out to eat it... the main thing is to get them involved in food even if they won't eat it first. Yes, of course you can feed them fish; if it is not their main diet, they can have almost every fish in small quantities. I can't recommend feeding a lot of fish, mainly because of the heavy metal contamination and the chemicals involved in fish farming... but mine love fish, crunching fins seems to be fun, one of my first ferrets loved sea food, crunching a shrimp was a beloved treat Wow how cool is that! What a good girl, Daisy! (dance) Give her some extra cuddles for doing this, it is a step in the right direction! ...but be prepared this bears potential heart attack risk for humans: I already found 2 of my ferrets asleep with food in their mouth, gnawing on it was so exhausting, they fell asleep! Fist was Martin with a chicken leg in his mouth, I thought he choked and died, I almost had a heart attack (headwall)
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Post by fretki on Feb 15, 2014 10:12:41 GMT -5
Ahh, another treat I forgot to mention: egg! Especially quail egg seem to have the perfect serving size per ferret It can also be used as a hairball preventative. I don't give egg often, because my ferrets get day old chicks weekly, and a chick still carries the egg yolk, so my ferrets get enough yolk by feeding chicks. If your ferrets like egg, you can coat meat with egg... if they never had egg, start with a small quantity and watch their poop before increasing the quantity. you can freeze egg for using later, when I get goose egg I freeze the scrambled egg into ice cube trays, in summer my ferrets get egg-"ice cream"
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2014 11:23:06 GMT -5
Sorry it's been a bit since I replied. Between Valentine's Day and a 5K I had this weekend, things have been hectic! All their feedings are the same with one exception, I added the organ soup to Fred's diet and he seems to be okay with that. I cut his muscle meat (chicken thigh) into chunks and put the soup on that and he took a bit to try it but once he did, he was cool with it =) I have been doing what you suggested and making the pieces for the other 3 into different sizes and I also have been making their soup thicker, more like a paste consistency. They seem to be okay with that, although not too thrilled with the adjustment. Right now the 3 are getting 2 proteins (chicken and duck) and Fred is getting chicken, duck, and lamb. I was thinking about looking for some rabbit but wasn't sure how they would take to it. I have tried beef with them and unless it is the calf liver in the soup, they want nothing to do with it! =) Also, I have been trying to keep their teeth brushed to make sure I keep down on the tartar. I know I need to brush the 3 more than Fred bc he is eating the bone very well. How often do you suggest doing his? I am not sure I can get quail eggs but I can try them on regular eggs. I read that the yolk is really the only thing you should be feeding them bc the white can hinder absorption of needed nutrients? Just wondering what the next step is for my hard heads? They are really going slow with their transition and I read on the FB page that it shouldn't take them as long as it has..... I am so new to this whole raw experience that I am afraid I am doing it wrong. I do offer them the same meats as I do Fred and they sniff and lick but ultimately go right back to the other =( I just don't want them to be on soupie in the next few months still. I have really cut back on the amount of soup I use on their slivers bc I felt like it was becoming a crutch for them. A batch was only lasting me a day or so before and now I am getting a few days out of it so I know they are eating more meat than soup but I just feel frustrated that I might have hindered their progress! Tell me that there are other newbies out there that are having a hard time too and it's not just me. Okay, sorry. Pity party is over now. I just really want them to be on the healthiest diet possible but it gets a little overwhelming at times
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Post by fretki on Feb 17, 2014 3:11:52 GMT -5
No worry, as long as you post every second day, you're still within the formal requirements for the mentoring program. If you are busy and need to be absent longer, please notify me in advance If there is something urgent I can give you my e-mail, I have Facebook and Whatsapp as well; so you could contact me outside this forum? Great, so Fred took to the organ soup-sauce for his meat without much opposition? That's a very good thing! Basically you can start every new meat and/or organ as soup, this should work with him. Well, I guess Bonnie, Daisy and Clyde are eating small pieces now? Regarding teeth this is much better than soup only, so check their teeth, and if necessary brush every 3rd day. Do they still get 3 meals a day or two now? Is every meal with soup? Yes and no, I need to smart butt about feeding eggs, if you're not interested about the background just read the first sentence: if fed in a moderate quantity whole eggs are perfectly safe for ferrets. egg white contains avidin, avidin binds to biotin (also known as vitamin b7 or vitamin h), an egg white only diet would lead to biotin deficiency. if, for whatever reason you feel like you need to feed egg every day: feed the yolk, if it is 1-2x week feed the whole. you can cause deficiencies with almost every food if it is the only thing they get to eat As far as I see, your ferrets have been on soup, no kibble for about 2 weeks now? they started to eat slivers about a week ago? I'll answer the rest of your post in a few hours, have to work a bit now. Just on last thing: don't let others or other switches discourage you, persistence is the key, and you really do this great! we'll bring a bit more structure in this switch, I'd like you to keep a log, so you'll see yourself that you really did a lot of work in short time, and I hope when this is done, you'll look back on it with a smile and a feeling of beeing proud of yourself for all the things you accomplished. And for all the ups and downs in between you have me!
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Post by fretki on Feb 17, 2014 12:00:49 GMT -5
I pm'd you my e-mail & co, just in case how about following the suggested weekly questionnaire? so you can keep track of their progress, we can also split it, post the weight once a week and 3) to 6) twice a week, if it is easier to keep record this way? holisticferret60.proboards.com/post/681. Ferret's name: 2. Ferret's weight: 3. Ferret has eaten "X" amount on average per meal. 4. Stools on various proteins: 5. Activity levels: 6. Weekly menu: you have access to rabbit? you make your mentor really happy (dance), I consider rabbit bones one of the easiest to get ferrets to eat, I hope your ferrets will agree with me, when time has come for... I feel like I have to comfort you a bit: It is hard to say in advance how long a switch should take, and even if they are perfectly fine with raw you will encounter moments where you will still feel like a beginner; ferrets are always good for surprises! Funny thing with switching ferrets, sometimes it makes me feel slightly schizophrenic, because on the one hand you have to be creative and imaginative to trick them, on the other hand you have to act like it is normal, you're absolutely fine with it and perfectly confident of what you are doing, even if you have no clue And one thing about the soup: you might have the impression that you hindered progress, but staying longer on soup has also advantages: the more fractioned meat arrives in the digestive tract, the easier for it to be analyzed and absorbed, the body has to figure out how to digest and has to build enzymes for each nutrient for this purpose in a very limited amount of transit time. And good news: I don't think we'll stay on soup for long anymore, we'll do a few trials in different directions as next step. Could you write a list of all meat you would have access to? An example, I have acces to: rabbit: whole butchered, front quaters, legs, head, kidney, liver chicken: whole butchered, breast, wings, legs, necks, gizzard, liver, heart etc. (you don't need to have them on hand, but it would be good to know what would be available to you)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2014 13:23:37 GMT -5
Thanks so much for calming my fears =) On the questions about the soup: Bonnie, Clyde, and Daisy are all eating the soup and slivers. I increased the size of the slivers by a smidge and they seem to be okay with that. Also, if they eat the soup but leave the slivers then I leave the plate out for the day and they will gradually go back and eat them as they get hungry. But they only get 2 servings of soup a day. I was quite surprised yesterday when I was in the kitchen preparing some meat for the next couple days and Clyde came in begging at my feet. He actually ate 2 small pieces from my hand with no soup on them =) He has been venturing toward the bigger pieces the last couple days and so has Daisy. Bonnie is still being a little picky. They have had no kibble at all for 2 weeks =)
I bought me a little notebook so I can keep a more accurate account of their progress and I will be happy to post as often as needed. I'm headed to pick the skin kids up from school and then I'll gather all the other info you asked for an get that posted by this evening. Just for good measure, I'll go ahead and get all their weights again too!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2014 21:13:07 GMT -5
I will be keeping a more accurate record and next Monday I will report on this weeks journal entries but for now I will report their weights and the proteins that I have access to:
Fred: 3lbs 5oz Clyde: 3lbs 8oz Bonnie: 2lbs 1oz Daisy: 1 lb 9oz
No change in any of their weights
Proteins are: chicken: liver, hearts, whole(frozen) and quartered, gizzards turkey: necks, whole, ground, and breasts, legs beef: liver, cheek, tongue, cuts duck: liver frog legs all forms of seafood CGH (whole frozen) and I can order from Hare Today which will ship to my house. It offers a variety of proteins in all different forms including grinds which have bone, muscle, and organ in them. The chicken, beef, and turkey are the ones that I have easy access to and I should mention that none of these are with their skin. I hope this was helpful =)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2014 21:27:38 GMT -5
this is the size pieces that they have been eating, that's my thumb in the pic. The plate had several pieces with a tiny bit of soupie. Just thought a pic might help you know where we are in the transition
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Post by fretki on Feb 18, 2014 9:02:22 GMT -5
great! thank you for the photo! please try to doubble the size of the pieces in the length, don't cut them larger, just longer and see what they do with it. And if they eat it, enjoy watching their first attempts, this is so cute when they bend their heads and try to eat on their back teeth, in the beginning they will do it in a very clumsy way.
how are their poops and energy level? everything ok?
that's very good, Clyde seem to like his food as well :banana:
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2014 11:58:47 GMT -5
their poops are a little runny but the last time I made the soup, the pieces were very fatty. I checked them this morning and they all seem to be firming up a bit. I will make them longer at the next feeding. Also, since they have been eating more meat and less soup they seem to be hungry in the middle of the day. Is it okay to feed them a little bit or should I just keep to the morning and evening schedule?
I have noticed that Bonnie's coat has gotten much fluffier and she has changed colors as well! I am thinking the color change is due to season bc Clyde had markings around his mask and they are starting to fade some as well. Fred, Daisy, and Bonnie have never lacked energy and they seem to be about the same with the only change being that they are staying awake longer in the mornings. Clyde is my biggest change! I actually had him tested right before we started our mentorship bc he was being lazy and not wanting to play but they screened his blood and did all kinds of exams and he came back 100% healthy. That scare was what prompted me to get serious about raw diet bc I had read so many things about how they would feel better and have a higher chance of staying healthy. Long story short, he has been playing with Daisy as if he were a baby and not 2 =) This morning, I actually watched him scale the back of a chair to get to the window to see out! I am so happy to see him dooking and chasing the others and not just laying around <3 And all 4 of them are getting such soft, pretty coats!
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Post by fretki on Feb 18, 2014 14:57:45 GMT -5
You can try a small pinch of eggshell powder on the pieces to see if the poops firm up, and yes they can have food in the middle of the day. If you have time to feed them inbetween that's fine. Don't be surprised, when they take to raw they may eat like gluttons, I offer "all you can eat" in the beginning, they adjust and cut back by themselves after a while. A meal in the morning and one in the evening is just easy to "calculate" the menu of a week to cover the nutritional requirements; but for that you should have a rough idea of how much they eat per day. afterwards you can choose how many meals you want to give, with 2 meals it is easy to figure out the amount of meat, organ, heart(s) and bone in meat. otherwise you have to do the percentages and divide into meals. I have no sense of orientation and I'm a zombie in the morning, but strangely I have no problems with ratios: >10% of edible bones 10% of heart 10% of organ (50:50 liver:other) to me this makes perfectly sense. In meals it is also easy (on the basis of 2 meals a day, 14 meals a week): 1.5 meals organ (half liver, half other) 1.5 meals heart 8-9 meals edible bone in meat 2-3 meals muscle meat I'm happy you already see positive changes! Clyde was also the one begging for food, right? This boy knows what's good for him sometimes it may be something "simple" like hydration which changes much in a ferret. imagine yourself drinking not enough day after day, you get tired, you get a headache, you'll feel weak, maybe even get an upset tummy... and getting a decent amount of amino acids (raw contains much more) works wonders, I have a comparative somewhere, I'll check and post it, it is shocking how much gets lost through processing. My two youngsters are soon 5 years old, and these girls are very small (1lb 7oz nice fatty winter weight!!), so when I have visitors they believe they are babies because of the silky soft fur and the energy
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2014 10:20:25 GMT -5
I wanted to send you a quick "yay" =) I cut the pieces into longer strips and they took it all! I see what you mean by feeding more than 2 times a day. That could get confusing. I am going to make sure I write out the menu at the beginning of every week so that I don't have to worry. =)
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Post by fretki on Feb 19, 2014 15:12:46 GMT -5
YAY!!! :boing: Well, I encourage you to vary your feeding habits when they are settled on raw and you feel comfortable with frankenprey; but I think it is easiest to start with 2 meals; what you can do is hold back a small amount in the morning so you have a few pieces for snacking during the day, and do the same with the evening meal? Thats actually what I do in summer, when temperatures are high: they get one larger meal in the late evening, and semi-frozen or even frozen in the morning and when I get home from work; but I know how much they should eat per day, I prepare portions in small food storage containers and freeze them, my ferrets should eat 2 containers per day... they have labels in different color for heart, muscle meat, organ, bone in, whole prey and miscellaneous, to make sure I grab the right one in the morning for their evening meal
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2014 19:47:42 GMT -5
today I tried just 2 meals but did like you said and held some back for them to snack on during the day. For some reason they are trying to leave the slivers again =( But I am leaving them on the plate and not putting anything else out until the evening feeding and they are slowly coming back and eating them throughout the day. I figured if they get hungry enough they will eat. I just can't sit and watch all day so I am not sure how much of that Fred is eating since he likes chunks without the soup anyways....
On a bright side, all the poop is firming up but Fred also hasn't had any lamb chops in a few days bc they ran out at the store. Tonight we are going to try turkey neck and I am going to see if instead of slivers, maybe the other 3 would eat ground chicken. If I can get them to eat that, then maybe they will eat the grinds that have bone in them too (I can order several proteins in this form)
I bought some extra light oil and I am going to be near a health store tomorrow and will be looking for salmon oil. If I can get them to like an oil then maybe I can start using it instead of soup to coax them to try new things?
I'm having a hard time keeping accurate weights on their food since they are so quick to eat off someone else's plate =) But I think I will start separating them at feeding time and that should give me a better idea. There is never any left at the next feeding with any of them. I never have to take anything away =) But does that mean I should up the amount I feed them?
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Post by fretki on Feb 21, 2014 8:00:30 GMT -5
as long as all is gone until you offer the next meal and as long as the weight is stable, everything is ok, meaning they eat enough to keep their weights stable! yes, try to give a little more if they eat all per day, just to see if they would like to eat a bit more I hope they will like the ground chicken! I'm not familiar with the "extra light oil", what is it? olive oil?
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