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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2014 18:15:58 GMT -5
Okay I'm feeling better and have questions! (Thanks for being patient while I got some much needed rest and recovery though!)
So first: The ferrets have been eating less. Like sometimes by almost 50% less. I used to make sure to give them at least 8oz of whatever I was giving them. Now that seems to be way too much. I could put in 2 whole chicken wings and they would go through them but now they leave up to 2-3 bones with meat on. Is this because they are not growing as much? Or could it be because their schedule has been altered since I've been sick? But really I noticed it before I got sick.
Ok so since they haven't been finishing what I've put out I've been giving them a little more time to finish (sometimes they do eat more and sometimes they dont) but then I feel like our schedule is getting "off". What is the correct thing to do? Should I just throw out what they leave and start the next meal? Or wait and l see if they will eat more? Does it depend on what meal it is?
While I was sick and getting help to care for the ferrets they got an extra chicken wing meal and skipped the heart meal so I gave them heart today. So can I give another 1.5 heart meals by the end of this week or will that be too much in 7 days? I will post the meal plan that includes the extra heart meal and see what you think.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2014 18:51:28 GMT -5
I left the last bone meal blank because I was going to see how much they were eating this week and then see if I had extra thawed out. Let me know what you think about the extra heart meal or if I could maybe do 2 full heart meals and leave out the 1/2 meal instead...? I don't know just a thought. Thanks! Glad to be back to somewhat of a routine (big sigh)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2014 20:07:24 GMT -5
Welcome back to the world! Glad you're feeling better. Now onto the menu and questions....
The ferrets have been eating less. Like sometimes by almost 50% less. I used to make sure to give them at least 8oz of whatever I was giving them. Now that seems to be way too much. I could put in 2 whole chicken wings and they would go through them but now they leave up to 2-3 bones with meat on. Is this because they are not growing as much? Or could it be because their schedule has been altered since I've been sick? But really I noticed it before I got sick.
They've been on this new "diet" for quite some time. Most of the time, ferrets will overeat at the beginning and then readjust. Sounds like that's what your guys are doing. Also, the spring season is upon us and ferrets generally eat less food than they would during the fall/winter season. Think of them in the wild, it's getting cold and the only way to keep warm is to bulk up and have some fat stored for the winter. When they winter is over, they begin to eat less. It's perfectly normal. Although, there are some ferrets that have their seasons out of whack, so they'll eat more during the spring but eat less during the winter.
Ok so since they haven't been finishing what I've put out I've been giving them a little more time to finish (sometimes they do eat more and sometimes they dont) but then I feel like our schedule is getting "off". What is the correct thing to do? Should I just throw out what they leave and start the next meal? Or wait and l see if they will eat more? Does it depend on what meal it is?
Since they're eating less, you can keep what they haven't eaten on their bowls and add on whatever is next on the menu BUT make a note of how much their leaving and readjust for the next time you feed the same meal. For example, lets say an entire heart meal is 4 chopped up hearts, but they're leaving about 1 whole heart.. for the next meal feed only 3 or 3.5. Enough for them to leave a few in between pieces. Remember that they won't eat anything that has gone bad. [Just in case you forgot: Ground meat is good for 8-10 hrs, boneless chunks are good for 10-12 hrs although it depends on the thickness of the chunks. Finally meaty bones are good for 12-24 hrs.]
While I was sick and getting help to care for the ferrets they got an extra chicken wing meal and skipped the heart meal so I gave them heart today. So can I give another 1.5 heart meals by the end of this week or will that be too much in 7 days? I will post the meal plan that includes the extra heart meal and see what you think.
You can proceed as normal. The PM 2/16/14 meal of pork hearts can be the 9th meal of bone-in. It would take a few months of them not eatting hearts for them to show deficiency.
Like I said, take note on how much they are eating and readjust the future meals. If they're eating only 6 oz of 8 oz... give 6.5 - 7 oz. If you have a scale, you can weight before feeding them and after. But, that's just my tendency to love numbers and accuracy.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2014 20:47:23 GMT -5
Sounds good! They look so healthy! I just weighed them and Dottie is about 2.3 lbs and Strax is about 2.6lbs. Well thats as close as i could get with them wiggling all over! I was shocked at how fast little Dottie has caught up to my big boy! She is solid muscle though! So proud of them! And of me for sticking with what's best for them! I will work on adjusting the amount of food per meal and track what they eat and how much is left over in my notes. Glad to know that it is a normal response.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2014 20:47:48 GMT -5
Everyone is doing ok today. I'm charting the amounts they are eating and i will post it at the end of the week. Let me know if there is something else I should be doing at this point. I've heard about oils or supplements but not sure about how to use them other than when I need to make organs taste better! Hope you guys are having a good week!
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Post by katt on Feb 12, 2014 0:01:12 GMT -5
Just one quick note to add to J's post yesterday. If you miss a meal of something you CAN skip it, though I ansolutely wouldn't recommend doing that very often, OR you can double up. Keep in mind that the menu is a guideline, not something stuck in stone. So they didn't finish their chicken wings in one meal, and it ended up equalling two meals. Just count that at two bone-in meals, and then swap a future bone meal with the missed organ or heart meal. Part of the motive behind making you create menus is to help you learn how to make adjustments and substitutions. Organ and heart are important, so if you miss a little one week then double up the next. And a week is really Just a unit we use - your week can begin or end anywhere. If you have to double up, just be sure to space it out with other meals IF the extra organs cause too much soft poop. Hope I am making sense here. I know I'm rambling a bit, sorry. Basically I would avoid skipping heart or organ in any one week and if you do, make sure to make up for it so thy are still getting balance. You're doing great!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2014 15:19:17 GMT -5
Okay that makes perfect sense because sometimes they do draw out the bone meals, etc a little bit even though I feel I've given a good amount. I hate to waste what I've put out there. Usually just giving them a little more time solves the problem. But they also have this habit of running up to the feeding area when I come in to see if I've brought in fresh meat, which is what they seem to like best. So I like knowing that I can wait a little and let them know they need to finish what I give them wihin reason first. I feel like it's going well overall
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Post by katt on Feb 14, 2014 17:38:22 GMT -5
You are doing great - I'd say you are getting pretty close to graduation. Are there any questions you have/had that we have't addressed yet? Remind me again - what organs do you have access to besides liver? How are they doing on eating organ and heart Chunks? Do you feel comfortable with the balancing and making substitutions and adjustments as you go each week? If not, what specific areas are you the most uncertain about?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2014 21:23:31 GMT -5
Thanks for the positive feedback! I've been working so hard to get this right and keep it up despite all the other, well, I'll just call them a series of unfortunate events! And there have been so many lately I questioned whether I could pull this off! But then I look at those sweet little babies and they deserve the best I can offer them. I believe the raw diet is just that. And I know things will settle down in my life sooner or later. The meal planning has gotten so much easier. But today I do have a poop question. Strax seems to be fine and his poop looks normal but Dottie is acting a little lethargic. Nothing drastic but enough to where I noticed it this evening. And her poop is a light color. Of course I took a picture! Could this indicate a deficit in something? I'm wondering if she is not eating as much bone or liver something like that? When I looked through it there was nothing in it, meaning no foreign objects. When I put out liver and heart yesterday they ate all of the heart and left some of the liver until it was finally time to move on bc it had been out too long. So maybe she didn't eat enough of it. Any thoughts? (And they will be going to the vet this coming week. Last week I was completely overwhelmed after the hospital and what not.) To answer your questions above: For organs besides liver I have pork kidney on hand. That is always available at the Asian market and when I go I always look for others. They eat pork and chicken heart with no problem! The liver and kidney is not as appealing so I usually add either egg or a few drops of ex virg. Olive oil or a little soup cube. Then they typically eat it. I am feeling pretty comfortable with the weekly meal and making adjustments since that last post/ "conversation" about it. The last question I have is about any supplements I should or should not be giving. I think we talked about it a little in the beginning but instead of back tracking I'd rather have a another conversation about it now that I've been doing it for a while with fresh ears. If that makes sense?
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Post by katt on Feb 15, 2014 4:05:06 GMT -5
Makes perfect sense! I'm trying to leave the posting up to J. But I will address the poop very briefly, with some questions. I do NOT want to alarm you, but we had a recent incident with a MF kit so I am just on high alert. How old are they again? When did you bring them home? That poop looks pretty solid - have their poops been better or still soft? Lethargy isn't good, so keep a super close eye on her. It could be I am overreacting and she is just bored. It could be just an off day or a tummy bug or anything. Normal that poop wouldn't really alarm me at all, I'd say she ate something like chicken or turkey that gives other poops and maybe had some extra fat. If the poop is pretty hard and/or dry it could mean she is getting Too Much bone. The only reason I'm concerned is there was a recent SUSPECTED (note - NOT proven yet, still waiting on tests to tell us more) case of FIP in a kit from MF. He had pale poops. Initially he had diarrhea, followed by poops that looked like cream of wheat, followed by some pale but otherwise normal poops, followed by blockage like symptoms including projectile vomiting. I DO NOT want to stress you out. I'm sure your baby is fine. But because I'm on high alert right now I will say watch her VERY closely. Make sure she is eating and monitor her lethargy. If she isn't improving, shows any unusual symptoms, etc to the vet. Also when you say lethargic - can you describe that in more detail? Is she truly lethargic, doesn't want to play? Is she alert when she is playing but getting tired earlier than usual? Is she less active when she is awake, and just meandering instead of playing? Does she seem bored? Etc.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2014 12:56:57 GMT -5
I was about to post that I thought it was too much fat before I read your post so hopefully that's it. Here is the pic that really made me think so. In person it looked a lot like the consistency of fat. Ok for some reason it's not loading! So this morning Dottie was actively waiting for me! They had eaten all of the rabbit and chicken meat over night and she was ready to eat! I brought her down stairs with me and she was active and excited I was preparing food. Once I had everything cleaned out and ready I brought her up to eat and she was less than excited to see it was liver and kidney. I put an ice cube of soup with it. She ate just a little bit and then went to sleep pretty quickly. Strax on the other hand was ready to play again soon after. The set up I have for them is a ferret nation cage and 2 play pens that are connected around it with tunnels that run outside the pen area and into boxes and back into the playen pen. At night i usually shut them in the ferret nation cage. Then I bring them downstairs to run and play when I can supervise them. I have 2 large dogs as well so I never leave them alone. Anyway, Dottie actually wanted to stay in the FN cage and sleep. To me that's the ultimate seclusion because its where they get "shut in" with less freedom. When I go in to check on her she looks up at me but after I pet and kiss her she curls back up to sleep. This is what I mean about being a little lethargic. She will seem ok and then not ok. Maybe it is her tummy still adjusting after the chicken fat? I hope! i am worried and I am keeping a close eye on her. Especially with the info you have me today. How awful would that be. The poops were getting normal and always similar to Strax until this time. That's what really stuck out to me and the fact that she is just not as active. She is waking up now so I will see how active she is. So far she looks good! Thank goodness I have you guys! Aaaahhhh! Trying not to over react! i will check back in if anything changes or gets worse, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2014 13:01:36 GMT -5
Forgot to answer your questions: They are about 4 1/2 mos old, born in October. I brought them home the end of December. Their poops have been normalizing for a while now, meaning they are good with bone meals typically and then adjust to the other meals accordingly.
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Post by katt on Feb 15, 2014 13:41:05 GMT -5
If it looked fatty that it probably what it is. She is a few months older than the ferret I was talking about, so that's good. It *sounds* like the suspected cases (note: all only suspicions at this point without testing) were all from a younger batch of kits. Keep watching her. It could be she is bored. You have a great set up, but ferrets always want more. So maybe she's a little snob lol She should be wanting to play though at her age. She could also just be fighting a minor bug. I wouldn't be alarmed just yet, but keep watching her activity, intake, and output closely.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2014 6:24:53 GMT -5
Hi Shannon! Sorry I haven't answered the food question.. been sick (I think) since Thursday evening and I've been avoiding bright screens, light, and sound like the plague. Feeling better, finally, just have a very sore throat that doesn't want to go away (headwall). On to the questions...
For organs besides liver I have pork kidney on hand. That is always available at the Asian market and when I go I always look for others. They eat pork and chicken heart with no problem! The liver and kidney is not as appealing so I usually add either egg or a few drops of ex virg. Olive oil or a little soup cube. Then they typically eat it. I am feeling pretty comfortable with the weekly meal and making adjustments since that last post/ "conversation" about it.
Didn't know you had kidneys on hand! That's great! Remember that their organ servings are half liver and half other organ. I've heard that some ferts are not big fans of liver... but then again all ferrets are different. Bribing the way you are currently doing is good. (giggle) There is another oil that other ferrents use, it's called grizzly salmon oil, don't know if you wanted to have an additional oil on hand to alternate. But EVOO (ex. vir.. oil)_ is good! I used EVOO as well. Since we spoke last, readjusting the amount of food is going good? Are they leaving enough until their next meal? I think planning meals is pretty awesome, if something goes wrong, you already have it preplanned, hopefully separated already and all you have to do is pick out the bag, thaw and serve. You don't neccessarily have to feed them exactly 12 hrs apart, if they have a few pieces from their AM or PM meal, they'll go and finish up the leftovers until they get their meal. of course this is for healthy ferrets.
The last question I have is about any supplements I should or should not be giving. I think we talked about it a little in the beginning but instead of back tracking I'd rather have a another conversation about it now that I've been doing it for a while with fresh ears. If that makes sense? Supplements... if they're fed a completely balanced diet, there is no need for supplements because everything they need is found in the meals they are eating. Remember that frankenprey is us emulating a whole prey diet, which ferret normally eat in the wild. Think of it as just that, if a ferret is lacking something... they'll most likely eat more of it. They're self regulators! Just like us, if we're lacking a vitamin, we'll actually crave it. Interesting stuff, huh. I know some ferrents add on a supplements, such as dry bone meal, taurine, Co-enzyme Q10, etc but that's probably because their meals are lacking something. Commercial raw product sometimes have no bone-in, so they add on bone meal or crushed egg shells onto their raw. If you're wondering on the taurine and CoQ10, theyre supplements to help avoid cardiomyopathy.. well one type of it at least. Taurine is found in blood rich organs such as hearts, lungs, muscle.. so as long as they're gobbling up raw hearts, there's no need to add on an additional supplement to their diet. It's one of the main reasons why we advocate in a completely balanced diet, if their meals are not balanced out they'll eventually become malnurished and have a deficiency in whatever it may be that is lacking. So everything we do and try and help you with is to avoid that.
Glad to hear Dottie is active, I got a bit worried when I read she was being lethargic. 4.5 mo old kits should be running wild, but should be a minor bug. Ferrets are resilient and bounce back. Even though you may be graduating soon, we'll always be here to answer your question! Don't forget that! We're always a personal message away.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2014 14:29:18 GMT -5
I hope you are feeling better! No worries here! I'm feeling pretty comfortable with the weekly meal plan. I feel comfortable enough to where I don't feel I have to be so rigid anymore, meaning I can see what they have eaten and adjust to increase for more bone - or a more lean meat in the case of Dottie and the fatty chicken...I switched to rabbit because it is much leaner than the chicken I had planned to give her. I have plenty of crushed eggshells just in case, I have a good source for chicken hearts and liver and a second good source for pork heart and liver and kidney and other things. I have a question about chicken feet. I saw them at the market and wanted to try them next time I go. How do they "work" exactly? I mean there is no meat on them really right? Do you add some other meat with it or how do the ferts usually handle them? Dottie is doing fine when she is out to play she is active and curious, etc. I think she is slowly becoming more "content" and she has become the most lovable or I'm not sure what to call it- she is so content to be with me and wants me to hold her and wants to sleep in my lap, etc..more than any ferret I've ever had. So sweet! I can't believe it considering how flighty she was initially but Strax is your typical crazy kit. He us so funny and follows Dottie alot when they are out. She is definitely the one in charge. They are so different. So maybe that's part of what I'm seeing. She is still having some loose stool it's getting better but still a little gooey. Color is more typical though. Appetite is fine too. Yes so glad I will still have you guys even when I graduate. I will also probably post on the FB page more once I'm done here. So maybe I'll catch you there as well
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