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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2014 12:33:38 GMT -5
Ok. So other than the mail order places is there somewhere I can get these other sources of meat so I can start right away? When you say game hen, exactly what is the difference between that and chicken? I think I underestimated the amount of variety of meat I will need with bones. I've been just going to the grocery store and picking up what they have there.
I agree I think I am not providing enough bone in their diet. So maybe that's the place to start while in get these other sources. I do have ground turkey and I can pick up some turkey with bones. Meanwhile I will get on the mail order sites and see what I can find. Do you recommend one in particular?
Also is there such a thing as giving too much soup? So if I give a little each day to supplement with eggshells would that be too much? I've been freezing it in ice cubes and then thawing for quick access. So giving an ice cube each day per ferret??
I am having trouble getting pictures to post. I am using an iPad so could that be the problem?
I did not take them to the vet yet. When I lost Baby it was due to a badly handled blockage (diagnosed as insulinoma) and this is by the best ferret doc around here, known for his expertise. People come from all over to see him. I ended up taking Baby to a different vet to finally get the right diagnosis and emergency surgery but his intestines had ruptured that day and we lost him. I made an appt with the first vet to show him the records and express how upset I was with how things were handled, his staff not listening to my concerns and not giving me access to the doctor and obviously the misdiagnosis. He apologized and said there would be changes, etc. The second doctor immediately took action and cancelled all her appointments to do the surgery. she was very attentive and empathetic. but i really dont know how experienced she is even though we did get results with her...So now I am confused about who I should take these guys to and it is making me hesitant to take them in. Also because there is no ferret vaccine for distemper or I haven't heard that there is more yet so I can't get them vaccinated to protect them. Input on this situation is welcome bc I am really struggling with it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2014 12:50:35 GMT -5
I almost forgot to answer some of your questions... We started this process Dec 28th but we started more aggressively switching around January 10th. Before that they were getting kibble a lot! Their poops were fine when we came home for a few weeks at least. Only when we were switching did they get bad like this. About the peanuts - this is only available when they are "mostly" monitored. Dottie did try to chew one at first but I haven't sen her do it since. They like to sleep in them now. The other thing is, both ferrets have the bad poops and Strax doesn't eat bedding or anything like that. I hope I didn't miss anything. Thank you so much for this help! I really need it and appreciate like you wouldn't believe! I almost freaked out when I saw that I had missed your initial contact! I have a young adult son so has autism and we are in the transition process...stressful! I also have Ankylosing Spondylitis so sometimes I get flare ups and horrible fatigue. So with all of that I had not logged on trying to just deal with everything in front of me. And yes that includes poops! You won't have that problem again. Oh yes....what is denim? one more question... The skin on the meat? I've been taking the skin off. Am I supposed to be leaving that on?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2014 18:55:50 GMT -5
Since I'm still learning, I could answer a few of your questions (Katt will fill in the blanks on the raw).
You can buy a variety of meats at asian or ethnic supermarkets. Not sure if you have any in your area , you may have to google. You can try a local butchershop? I've seen ferrents become bffs with their butchers (the butcher will hold specific organs and what not for them).
Regarding the soup, I'm going to go with yes. You don't want them depending on a soup constantly. You want to build up jaw strength in order for them to chunks of meat, bones, etc. But you also want them to recognize their soups in case they get sick.
Poop Picture! I use photobucket to get my pictures on here. You upload the picture on their site (you can resize, crop, edit, etc) and they give you an image link that you just post on here and should pop a picture up when you preview/ post it. Poop pictures are very helpful because it's probably the best way we can see what's going on in them. Don't be afraid of posting them, after a while you'll become a poop expert.
Denim is the material used to make jeans. They won't like the texture of denim on their teeth. They tend to grow out of this eating bedding at some point.
Regarding the vet. You can always interview the 2nd vet regarding ferrets and their views on raw food, vaccinations, etc. Doesn't hurt to get information ahead of time. I asked because since they're young, they can set a baseline for them (sometime to compare to in times of crisis- Full cbc, x-rays, blood glucose, etc). Where do you live? We have a list of vets by state. Maybe we have a vet in your area? I think it's on facebook right now, I may have to get the link to the lastest one and add it on the forum.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2014 20:36:48 GMT -5
Oh denim! I thought you were talking about a supplement of some kind! Lol jeans! Got it! I will try photobucket because I do have some great poop pics! And today after all the chicken wings they were a little more formed but had a lot of white pieces ( of bone?) in it. So I thought that was improvement. But I will post when I can and show you the worst and best Thanks for the input about the vet. I think I will call and have a chat with the second one. Trying not to name anyone on here. The first one is prob on your list.
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Post by katt on Jan 23, 2014 21:01:02 GMT -5
Ok. So other than the mail order places is there somewhere I can get these other sources of meat so I can start right away? Like Jocelyn said Asian and Ethnic markets are the best place to look. They always have the more unusual meats and a lot of organs. Also check out Halal markets, they tend to carry goat and various organs. When you say game hen, exactly what is the difference between that and chicken? I think I underestimated the amount of variety of meat I will need with bones. I've been just going to the grocery store and picking up what they have there. Game Hen and Chicken are two different birds. Like... a Canary vs a Cockatiel. While they are both poultry meat, they DO count as different proteins. That being said, you don't want a diet of all poultry. So while *technically* a diet of say chicken, game hen, and turkey would be covering your minimum 3 protein types, that still isn't enough variety. Same goes for bone, and your current menu. Technically you have your minimum 3 covered - beef, pork, chicken. The problem is that right now, their diet is MOSTLY chicken, and chicken is their only bone source. It's best to have at least 2 bone sources, though 3 or more is even better. Same goes for the protein variety. A minimum of 3 is required, so beef pork chicken is okay, but more is always better. You can always stretch out the more expensive meats by feeding them less frequently, and still be able to increase their variety. It keeps them from getting bored with their food too. I agree I think I am not providing enough bone in their diet. So maybe that's the place to start while in get these other sources. I do have ground turkey and I can pick up some turkey with bones. Meanwhile I will get on the mail order sites and see what I can find. Do you recommend one in particular? A picture would help. As J said, the easiest is to upload to photobucket and link the pic here. It is very possible that they are still adjusting to the new diet too since they really only started about 2-3 weeks ago. Also, with all of the inedible delicacies *ahem blankets* they have eaten, they easily could have upset the natural gut flora in their GI tracts. I would try some kefir. I'll have to check on dosage for you as I haven't used it - I use powder probios, but live cultures are generally better. If the poops are pretty bad and/or they don't resolve soon, they will need to see a vet. A checkup wouldn't hurt anyways. I'll respond RE your vet questions in a min. Also is there such a thing as giving too much soup? So if I give a little each day to supplement with eggshells would that be too much? I've been freezing it in ice cubes and then thawing for quick access. So giving an ice cube each day per ferret??Yes. It is good to feed them soup occasionally so they don't forget that it is food, but they should not get it daily for a number of reasons. For one it is bad for their teeth. Also, they can and WILL become dependent on that "soup gravy" over their meat and you'll be looking at going back a few steps in the switch to get them used to eating whole meats without soup. For the calcium, you don't need to give them soup. Simply sprinkle the powdered eggshell of bone meal over their meat chunks. The meat is wet, so the powder will stick to it. Also, I don't think you are THAT deficient in bone. It sounds like you are offering 7-9 bone-in meals, but that some or all may just be a bit light in their actual edible bone content? Clarification on what a "bone-in" meal for them is, how much of the bone (and what types of bones) they are eating, and whether the whole meal or only part is bone-in (i.e. half chicken wings half ground pork vs a full meal of chicken necks). For clarification a "meal" on a menu generally refers to a 12 hour period. Most people feed twice a day (am and pm meals) and leave the food out for free feeding. So since you are filling their bowl as it empties, anything they eat during the day is one meal, and everything they eat overnight is another. Make sense? I did not take them to the vet yet. When I lost Baby it was due to a badly handled blockage (diagnosed as insulinoma) and this is by the best ferret doc around here, known for his expertise. People come from all over to see him. I ended up taking Baby to a different vet to finally get the right diagnosis and emergency surgery but his intestines had ruptured that day and we lost him. I made an appt with the first vet to show him the records and express how upset I was with how things were handled, his staff not listening to my concerns and not giving me access to the doctor and obviously the misdiagnosis. He apologized and said there would be changes, etc. The second doctor immediately took action and cancelled all her appointments to do the surgery. she was very attentive and empathetic. but i really dont know how experienced she is even though we did get results with her...So now I am confused about who I should take these guys to and it is making me hesitant to take them in. Also because there is no ferret vaccine for distemper or I haven't heard that there is more yet so I can't get them vaccinated to protect them. Input on this situation is welcome bc I am really struggling with it. Go to who you feel comfortable with. It sounds like you were (rightfully!) much happier with the second vet and honestly, I can't say I'd ever be going back to the first after an experience like that. Honestly, I find that vets with less ferret experience are generally a lot nicer to work with as long as they are open minded and willing to learn and do their research. What happens with a lot of ferret "experts" is they become very set in their ways and refuse to change, refuse to acknowledge different ways of doing things, and refuse to accept new treatments (Des for example). A vet who is open minded and willing to learn is much better IME. They will research the new stuff, and will respect YOUR knowledge and experience and listen to your input. I see one vet (I have multiple) who while she sees ferrets, isn't super experienced in them. It's great because she knows I have done a TON of research and she respects my knowledge. I essentially get to dictate the treatment my boys receive, but I have her veterinary knowledge and experience to fall back on. We work as a team. As it should be. Now I'm not saying ferret experts can't be this way as well. The key is being open minded and willing to learn new things. It sounds like you had a good experience overall (except of course your poor baby being so sick already by then) with the second vet. If you feel more comfortable with him, I wouldn't think twice. J's suggestions of interviewing the vet about raw diet and/or looking around for other vets to try are good suggestions too. Keep in mind, you may NOT find a vet that is okay with raw. You just have to stay strong and keep in mind that YOU know it is best, and you are doing the right thing by feeding them the diet they are evolved to eat, and remind yourself that most vets are unfortunately very set on kibble - it's what the vet schools and AVMA push. As for the vaccine - do you take your ferrets outside? Do you live in an area with a lot of distemper? If the answer to those questions were no, then I really see no need for the vaccine. There is a very high risk of reaction, and when they occur reactions to the distemper vaccine can be very violent. I take my boys out a lot, but we don't have much distemper in town so I don't bother with the vaccines. Not worth the risk in my book. People have varied and strong opinions on vaccines. I suggest doing some research on it yourself so you can decide for yourself and feel confident bout your choice. Either way, they should still get in for a checkup.
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Post by katt on Jan 23, 2014 21:06:16 GMT -5
Their poops were fine when we came home for a few weeks at least. Only when we were switching did they get bad like this. Honestly it sounds to me like they are still adjusting and are probably a bit low on bone. It can take a while for their GI system to adjust to the new diet. About the peanuts - this is only available when they are "mostly" monitored. Dottie did try to chew one at first but I haven't sen her do it since. They like to sleep in them now. Just keep an eye out. Thank you so much for this help! I really need it and appreciate like you wouldn't believe! I almost freaked out when I saw that I had missed your initial contact! I have a young adult son so has autism and we are in the transition process...stressful! I also have Ankylosing Spondylitis so sometimes I get flare ups and horrible fatigue. So with all of that I had not logged on trying to just deal with everything in front of me. And yes that includes poops! You won't have that problem again. No worries, just glad we got you in time! one more question... The skin on the meat? I've been taking the skin off. Am I supposed to be leaving that on?Yes, leave the skin on. The skin has subcutaneous (literally means under-skin) fat that is very important for them. Ferrets get most of their energy from fat so it is a very important part of their diet. It may take them some time to get used to chewing it since they haven't been eating it prior to this. You may need to cut it into pieces to start and increase the size of the skin chunks and then stop cutting it entirely. Or being kits, they may dig right into it. You can use a knife to "score" the meat - just make cuts into the meat but leave the skin and meat together. This gives them a starting point to work from as they are learning to eat skinned and larger pieces. ETA: for the turkey bones, you may have to crush the larger pieces of bone to give them a starting point. The wing tips most ferrets can handle okay, but the larger wing bones, and other bones need to be crushed a little. Also I forgot to answer your question about online meat sources. HareToday is probably the best site for commercial raw grinds and other commercial meats. Lots of various grinds, lots of organs to choose from, and a lot of other whole meats too (i.e rabbit chunks, chicken feet, etc).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2014 10:38:08 GMT -5
<a href="http://s163.photobucket.com/user/Sldnytx/media/ferrets/729AEEC4-C359-46B1-B6E8-2FF61BC9066A_zpsqt4rmpdw.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/Sldnytx/ferrets/729AEEC4-C359-46B1-B6E8-2FF61BC9066A_zpsqt4rmpdw.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 729AEEC4-C359-46B1-B6E8-2FF61BC9066A_zpsqt4rmpdw.jpg"/></a>
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2014 10:47:19 GMT -5
Oops that didn't work! I tried using photobucket and still can't get it to load! Maybe I need to get my daughter to help me! Lol the younger you are the better you seem to figure out this stuff!
I lost my last response trying to load the pictures...ugh!
But basically I said a huge thank you because that was great information! Understanding that a meal = 12 hours makes a huge difference!
I am going to work on getting the probiotics and find different markets this weekend. I gave them ground turkey sprinkled with eggshell and you would have though Dottie was being poisoned! She gagged and spit! After hours of waiting I ended up putting some chicken chunks in with it and then they chewed down. Where do you get Kefir?
SO glad I can leave the skin on!!! It was such a pain trying to get it off with my stiff hands! So that's great news!
I will keep working on the photo thing but they seem to be a tad better! Hopefully on the right track now. But I will be taking them in for a checkup soon. Lots to do!!!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2014 19:21:24 GMT -5
When you upload the pictures. you have to go to your gallery and it'll give you, i believe, 3 links. One for emails, im, ht something and an image one (IMG) use the latter. I have a question, How do you grind your eggshells? I used a coffee grinder. Made it into very fine powder. Just curious on how you're grinding the shells.
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Post by katt on Jan 26, 2014 5:06:44 GMT -5
Popping in for an update
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2014 11:05:50 GMT -5
My car is in the shop! Apparently the brake pad on the left just fell off for some reason! They are trying to figure this out.
I am using a coffee grinder as well for the shells. It does a pretty good job but does else about 20-30% a little bit more than a powder. I have put it back through but seems to be the same no matter what.
Yesterday they ate liver and hearts with egg yolk on it to make it more appetizing. I sprinkled about 1/4 shell powder just to keep them supplemented until I can get more meat with bone in it. Last night I went back to chicken wings (with skin on but cut up) because I needed to use them up and they love them. But I woke up to Strax choking on something. Not sure if it was bone or skin or what. I stayed still because I didn't want to startle him. He was wheezing badly and gagging and then made it over to the water and drank a to of water. It really scared me because its not the first time he has choked. Is there a way to make things more "choke proof" ? I'm kind of skittish after losing Baby and it makes me anxious!
I found a few meat markets and called. One of them keeps lamb chops on hand but couldn't help me with anything else. No organs except maybe every 3 months or so. I found an Asian market I am borrowing a car to go to today. Hoping I can find what I need. I didn't get an answer when I called. But the website looks promising.
I looked on Hare today and have a few questions. If you get the ground (rabbit or other) whole with everything in it how do you keep track of what they have eaten? What do you normally order for a good bone in meal? Organs I can figure out. But the bone is my main concern.
I noticed we are on opposite time zones (for the US anyway) so 4 hours a part I think. I will most likely post around 10 am here (eastern) on the week days and then possibly after 3 pm and then weekends get a little crazy.
I will try the photo again but in the next message so I don't accidentally delete my message again! They had more runny poop after eating the liver. They did that last time too. Is it ok to spread the liver out into multiple meals? I have made a weekly chart that has what I am supposed to give them so I can checkit off as they get it. That way I can see it visually (I'm a visual thinker) and easily see what I am missing.
As always thank you so much!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2014 11:13:36 GMT -5
This is the worst it had gotten... This is last week I think... This is when it started looking better After wings the other day
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2014 11:42:33 GMT -5
And behold.... Look at these poops! They look so much better today!!! (After a night with chicken wings!) What do you think? Are these ok? I'm feeling happy!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2014 16:16:10 GMT -5
So I made it to the Asian market!! I felt a little out of place at first but it didn't take long to figure my way around I was able to get fresh pork liver and kidney and frozen pork hearts. I also got 2 frozen rabbits that are about 1 1/2 lbs a piece. I am thawing one of them out and I portioned out all of the other stuff into ziplock bags. A question about the rabbit...I am assuming I can feed them all of the bones and all, excluding intestines if those are still in there. They are skinned and no head but I'm not sure what else is going on in there! Lol And chicken...they can eat any non weight bearing bone including ribs and any I find in there? I have been splitting and breaking the leg bones and they will go after them. It just scares me that they might choke if they try to swallow a piece that I've broken off. Advice on this? So if I am giving them pork only as heart, liver and kidney does that count in the overall count of different kinds of protein? I forgot my list when I went so there were other things I could have gotten but didn't. But I am running low on freezer space too. But they had pork rib tips and I saw that on the list. Do these have bone in them and can they eat these? I am so glad to have you guys! I was wishing I could call you on speed dial or text you WHILE I was at the market!!! And here is a shot of my 2 babies! Strax is the blaze male and Dottie is my little girl. I fell in love with Strax initially and felt he needed to be rescued because he was deaf but Dottie is just the sweetest baby girl and has my heart! We took her too because they seemed to be bonding but she was a spaz! Well, she still is but she has built such trust with me and loves to cuddle and sleep in my arms. I never thought she would be the one that would be like that! Ferrets are so amazing aren't they? Now I can't just stop without bragging about my big head Straxy! I love him so much too! He is such a good eater and the roughest toughest dooker around! He is a little more timid when it comes to new things and its obviously harder for him to understand what's going on sometimes due to his hearing. But he is soooo sweet and also will sleep in my arms. So thank you for helping me get them as healthy as possible! I'm hoping they both live a very long life! I've only ever had a ferret live up to 6 years before disease or in Baby's case accident, has taken them from me. I thought I was cursed or something until I found you guys and this diet. I believe in it! It makes total sense!
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Post by katt on Jan 26, 2014 17:37:10 GMT -5
I was able to get fresh pork liver and kidney and frozen pork hearts. I also got 2 frozen rabbits that are about 1 1/2 lbs a piece. I am thawing one of them out and I portioned out all of the other stuff into ziplock bags. Fantastic! A question about the rabbit...I am assuming I can feed them all of the bones and all, excluding intestines if those are still in there. They are skinned and no head but I'm not sure what else is going on in there! Lol And chicken...they can eat any non weight bearing bone including ribs and any I find in there? I have been splitting and breaking the leg bones and they will go after them. It just scares me that they might choke if they try to swallow a piece that I've broken off. Advice on this? They can eat the entire rabbit. You can GIVE them the intestines, but odds are they won't eat them and it will just stink like crazy so it's generally best to remove those - leave the other organs though. For the bones, they absolutely CAN eat weight bearing bones. Give them the entire animal. You just have to break open some of the bigger bones (like chicken leg bones, turkey bones lager than wingtips and ribs, etc) to give them a starting point. As long as the bones are all RAW, they are perfectly safe. Yes, they might eat too fast and choke - but that is going to happen far, FAR more often eating kibble than any form of raw. Sure, they can get something caught between their teeth and they will hack and claw to try to get it out - but we do the same thing. Think bout how much it sucks when a popcorn kernel or other piece of food gets caught between your teeth. It's unpleasant, but it's not deadly. They are usually able to get it out on their own without too much trouble. You can always scruff them and run your finger along their teeth to help them if they aren't getting it easily on their own. I help my boys when I see them, but I am also aware that they can typically get it out on their own too. It's what they do in the wild, and what they do when it happens when I'm not home. Anyways, moral of the story is - raw bones are perfectly fine, you really have no reason to worry. So if I am giving them pork only as heart, liver and kidney does that count in the overall count of different kinds of protein? They should get pork muscle meat as well. It's good to have a variety of hearts and organs (esp because what happens if one runs out, or someone develops an allergy?), but they still need variety in their muscle meats too. Think about it - in the wild they wouldn't eat all of the frog muscles and all of the rat organs, and leave the rest behind. They get variety of bone, muscle, and organ. Also, feeding 3 meals a week of heart and organ (1.5 meals heart, 1.5 meals organ), and 7-9 bone-in meals still leaves you with some boneless muscle meat meals. That's where you can fit in the pork, beef, lamb, goat, etc. I forgot my list when I went so there were other things I could have gotten but didn't. But I am running low on freezer space too. But they had pork rib tips and I saw that on the list. Do these have bone in them and can they eat these?Yes pork rib tips have bone in them. Some ferrets can eat them and some cannot - it just depends on their jaw strength really. It most certainly doesn't hurt to try. Also something to keep in mind for variety...if it is RAW meat, that is NOT seasoned, NOT processed, NOT preserved in saline or other preservatives, and comes from a reliable (aka clean) source then they can eat it. Pretty much any human grade meat is going to be good (again - unseasoned unprocessed unpreserved uncooked), and many commercial raw pet food providers are good too - like HareToday, RadCat, RodentPro, Columbia River, etc. I am so glad to have you guys! I was wishing I could call you on speed dial or text you WHILE I was at the market!!! I'm glad you joined the forum! Do you have facebook? Both J and I are on FB and you can reach us there more often than not. I'm Katt Crouch on the FB group. And here is a shot of my 2 babies! Strax is the blaze male and Dottie is my little girl. I fell in love with Strax initially and felt he needed to be rescued because he was deaf but Dottie is just the sweetest baby girl and has my heart! We took her too because they seemed to be bonding but she was a spaz! Well, she still is but she has built such trust with me and loves to cuddle and sleep in my arms. I never thought she would be the one that would be like that! Such cuties! I love little blazes. As for Dottie, for one she is female for two she is a kit, and for three it sounds like you are seeing her in comparison to a very likely Waardy ferret (Blazes are often Waardys, and considering he is deaf I'd say it's almost certain - and Waardy's are often much more mellow) so I would say she is just a normal spazzy female ferret kit. She probably just seems more extreme next to a more mellow little Waardy boy. Not to say Waardy's can also be huge spazzes. My Kenai is a Waardy and he is a total spaz - but he is also a major snuggler. Ferrets are so amazing aren't they? Now I can't just stop without bragging about my big head Straxy! I love him so much too! He is such a good eater and the roughest toughest dooker around! He is a little more timid when it comes to new things and its obviously harder for him to understand what's going on sometimes due to his hearing. But he is soooo sweet and also will sleep in my arms. Brag away! That's part of why we are all here after all! He sounds like a sweetheart. My Kenai is pretty timid about new things too - especially outside. Koda on the other hand is an explorer. So thank you for helping me get them as healthy as possible! I'm hoping they both live a very long life! I've only ever had a ferret live up to 6 years before disease or in Baby's case accident, has taken them from me. I thought I was cursed or something until I found you guys and this diet. I believe in it! It makes total sense! I'm glad you found the forum and that we found you. You are a great ferret mom! Unfortunately because of the long time poor breeding in ferret mills, many of our babies are taken from us too young because of genetic issues and/or cancers. Your babies will be so much healthier and stronger on raw though, and at the very least you shouldn't have to worry about that horrible insulinoma! And if they do get sick, they will be much more well equipped to fight it with their stronger immune system and better hydration and better nutrition. I hope that they have many long and healthy years ahead of them. They are lucky to have you as their ferrent. Oh, and poops look much better! I'd say they were still adjusting to the new diet. I can definitely see improvement over time in your pics, and the last one looks good for a meal of chicken wings.
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