Aggresive Dogs

[ttfr]

Hey everyone,


So I need some advice on a territorial dog that will and has bitten people going up to them.

How have you guys delt with the lunging, barking, nipping additude of a medium but hefty sized dogs?

ttyl
cara

[lauren]

Hello
Guess this is going to be my 1st post rather than an intro thread

First of all, you need to figure out why the dog is biting? Most dogs bite out of fear, and because IT WORKS!
If a dog is scared and bites someone out of fear, then they learn that biting = scary people going away. So the very first thing you need to do is make sure the dog is never EVER punished for any signs of fear/aggression (ex/ growling, showing teeth, barking, snarling) because they will then equate scary people = being punished. This may get rid of the barking/snarling/teeth (through suppression), but as soon as the dog gets pushed over threshold they are just going to skip all the signs that they are uncomfortable and go straight to biting. You say this dog has already bitten, but what signs does he show before he bites? Look at the body language. The more often he gets to practice biting, the more habitual it will become and the more effective he will get at it.

I have a 5 year old fear reactive dog and these are his signs:
-ears back
-whale eye (seeing the whites of the eyes)
-mouth closed and hard
-holds breath
-ears back

They can be super subtle and he can move through them FAST. I'm talking 2 seconds, and then he goes to barking and lunging.

What were the people doing before he bit them?
How close were they before he reacted?
What did his reaction look like?
Where did this take place?
Where did he bite them, and how hard?

With my own dog, nobody is allowed to pet him, because he simply does not enjoy attention from strangers. And that is a-okay, I'm not going to make him meet people he does not want to meet.


My suggestion would be to get the dog evaluated by a behaviorist or by a positively based trainer with a lot of experience with aggression/reactivity.

Since I'm new my qualifications ( ) are living with a fear-reactive dog and I spent quite a bit of time apprenticing a dog behaviorist who specialized in aggression/reactive dog cases. Also maddiesmom knows who I am (and recommended this forum to me!)

[ttfr]

Thanks! and right now I can't afford a trainer. My pay checks are slow and gas is high.

but as soon as I can, or if I can't help this sitanuation myself, than I will.

Basic History about sim: He was kept in a shower stall from birth - 4months. He didn't get any socialization and was afraid of everything. Than I did the stupid thing of just putting him in a situation with three small, fearfull but aggressive like dogs. :stupid mee: I punished him for barking, growling etc.
And now that I'm changing my ways, I have the big hurdle to fix the problem I have created.

His first two bites were from the same chick leaning over him and trying to give him a hug both times was in the dark. Yet he knew her from when he was a puppy.
Second was when I was out for the day, and they had the kids over. Usualy he's put up but this time he snapped at my little nephew whos 2. D'on't know what triggered that problem but from what I heard cam fell, walked, stepped, something around him and he just niped and ran.
Third when a freind was visiting and tried to get him to play by going over top of him. Stupid.
Fourth was today when my room-mates son wasn't paying attention and got bit. Not sure what went down but Simba does NOT like him.


What simba has been showing is a mix of territory and fear. He goes fine when we are out for out 5-6 mile hikes with a few other people and their dogs. But he does get barky when people come up to the group depending on if the other dogs react.

The other part of him is when he's in the yard and someone comes in or around the gate. He'll bark, bare teeth, lunge, etc. It's a problem waiting to happen. He listens to an extent. If I tell him to go to the bedroom, he will. If I call his name while he's in a barking fit in the yard, He'll come. He LOVES his leash to the point that people aren't even there when the leash is in site.

Perhaps have new people come with his leash and try to get everyone to be associated with good?

I have a shock colar coming because I need to get under controll and it's one of the last things I havn't tried.

[Heather]

Send the shock collar back. This will create a whole new issue with a fear dog. You're already dealing with enough. Dogs like this are sometimes difficult to reach. Do you know anything of his breed history...and no I'm not going to bash pitt's or breeds. What I want to know is if either of his parents were fearful. Some of the problems that we deal with with fear/aggression is genetic. You really, really need a proffessional trainer. One that can train you (not your dog, that's useless) to handle your dog. This is far deeper than something that can be reached by simple clicker or treat measures. Some dogs can take abuse and isolation in stride they come out of some of the most horrific situations imaginable with their heads high and their tails wagging...others do not. I dealt with one of those. Your dog has already bitten...4 times. That's a pattern and it's escalating. How old is your dog now? Being isolated and not socialized for 4 months though detrimental isn't permanently damaging. I'm going to vote for a professional, even then you're walking a fine, fine tightrope and if anyone tries to tell you differently they're dreaming. This is not an issue to be taken lightly. Your dog has already figured out that he gets his point across by biting....he's going to seriously hurt someone. Those are small children he's dealing with and at the right age for serious dog bites. Dogs do not like dealing with children that can look them in the eye. Small children have a total lack of being able to read body language and don't read the hints that the dog is offering. This dog should never be allowed to be with small children, ever.
I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but like I said I've dealt with a fear biting dog. I fought (using various methods including a couple of professionals) for years for this dog. When it all came out in the end, I should have followed my instincts .
ciao

[Deleted]

Classes with a trainer may not be as expensive as you think, if you shop around. I live in a mostly rural area, and a behavior or agility class is $10 an hour.

[ttfr]

I wasn't the one that kept himp locked up btw! Just the one that just ignored the problems in the end.

I am trying to get a hold of a freind at the moment to talk about sim so wish me luck!!

[Heather]

Never thought you did Rescue comes with all sorts of responsibilities. Many of them not very pleasant Some people look at it as a way to get a free pet....it's not because they come with baggage and often health issues. For every success, comes failures, the ones that you fail to reach...that's the heartbreak
ciao

[lauren]

Definitely agreed on sending that shock collar back. Best case scenario it will only suppress behavior and you will end up with an even bigger problem than you have now.

Until you can afford a trainer you really need to be managing this situation. The dog should in no way be allowed to meet people at this point. You are going to need to be working on behavior modification, not just training, you need to change the way that he views people.

My only suggestion at this point is management and possibly start working on some counter conditioning. Keep the dog under threshold and treat when he looks at people and does not react. This is usually a really difficult balancing act (keeping the dog engaged, but sub-threshold) and you are really going to need some professional help to keep everyone safe and to help the dog effectively.

I wish you luck, it's not an easy road.

[Deleted]

Leadership is huge with any dog problem. You pretty much have to take control of all the dog's activities. Feeding time, you control. Sit stay until you let him eat. Toys, treats, any luxury has to come at a price with this type of dog. Single word commands are crucial, body language even more important. Dogs are very visual and respond well to subtle movements and communication. Do not allow your dog to come in contact with children and other poeple until you have a clear leadership role with thids dog. Children add a dynamic that is too risky if the dog have behavioral issues. You are at the beginning stages of behavioral management and need to start with yourself and your relationship with him/her before you expose other people. Shock collar I agree is not appropriate for this usage. E mail me if you have questions [e-mail] I am not a behaviorist, however I will help you with your dog.

[vhoey39750]

My name is Vanessa and I am training to be a professional dog trainer. Dealing with a dog who is aggressive towards people is one of the most sensitive and difficult types of training you can possibly deal with. Because I am still learning I will offer some sound resources you can turn to to get the help you need. That being said, I will say that the advice in the first response was excellent and that you should be warry of advice well meaning people, even many professional trainers may offer. The truth is that behaviour modification for aggression is so complex requiring a high level of knowledge about positive dog training and tons of experience with reactive dogs that there are few individuals will offer advice that helps the situation and actually end up making the situation worse. That being said I will recommend two things you can change immediately. First, I would put a muzzle on your pooch until she gets the help she needs. This is so important because you are ensuring not only the safety of your loved ones but also your dog. You are also protecting your dog from being put down should she hurt someome. Two, if your dog is wearing a choke collar, prong, or martingale I would change this immediately as it teaches your dog to be aggressive over time. If you have a problem with pulling there are a few things you can try: halti/ gentle leader, or easy walk / sensible harness.

I see that you don't have money for professional training at the moment. There is a great video from the 'father' of positive dog training, vet and behaviourist Dr. Ian Dunbar. You should buy the video 'dog aggression: biting'. You can download it for $15 from the website www.dogstardaily.com/storefront. This dvd had been recommended to me as the best and first place to start learning about dog aggression and how to modify the behaviour humanly.

In addition to this it would help if you can seek the help of an 'apdt' certified dog trainer. It is important to seek the help of trainers registered with this organization because they have undergone rigorous testing to ensure they know that they are doing and trust me, a friend of mine just took this test a few weeks ago and it is pretty difficult because you need to have a huge amount of knowledge about animal psychology and behaviour. So while I'm sure there are some equally qualified trainers out there without this certification, most great trainers do these days and you don't want to take a chance getting help from someone who might not be well qualified given your situation. In addition, you want one of these apdt trainers who also specializes in aggression because you want someone who deals with this stuff all the time. Now, not to despair about the cost, some may do pro bono work. My friend who is awaiting apdt certification does this for people who approach her who can't afford the full price. She says she would rather give away the training for free than have a dog out there who is aggressive towards people or dogs.

The way you find these trainers is through the website www.apdt.com and do a trainer search under the heading 'for pet owners'. Make sure you do an advanced search so you can specify you are looking for someone who deals with aggression and or behavioural modification. You also wanna make sure you click the box that ensures the search is only among certified apdt trainers. Now, I did a preliminary search for you in VA (not sure where exactly you live) and found some great news! The richmond spca has a certified trainer who heads up the training department. The blurb states that they have a helpline which you could call if you dont live in the area or if you do it says they also offer public (free!!) classes. It mentions they do deal with aggression so they would be a fantastic place to start, after buying that ian dunbar video of course ) Anyway, I hope all this information helps! Also, trying to deal with a case like this often takes months and months, often years of hard work to rehabilitate the dog. So good luck! Oohh, I almost forgot, if you find an apdt trainer who does aggression and dresses up in a padded attack suit thats awesome. My friends business partner does that and apparently they are hard to find but sooo useful because you can train your dog while attempting to provoke your dog but in a safe environment so should she attack, nothing will happen. Because like the first reply mentioned, you want to train your dog in such a way that their comfort zone is push to the point right before they become fearfull/aggressive. Unfortunately this carries the risk of the dog attacking, hence the importance of having a 'safe' and qualified trainer.

Bye for now!! Let me know what happens with your apdt trainer search and the richmond spca )

Vanessa

[xeopse]

Leia used to be very reactive/afraid in certain situations when we adopted her. Couldn't figure it out FOR THE LIFE OF ME. It seemed totally random. We several months not knowing what would trigger her - if a new person or certain person came up to pet her (but not all people, and not all strangers) she would put her tail between her legs and hide behind me, sometimes growling, other times whimpering. She never tried to bite BUT the growling and the bizarre behavior was concerning, especially since she is a pit bull.

After several months I realized what it was. A light went off.

I had her on my lap (the 40-lb lap dog, spoiled rotten!) and I noticed that she had a lot of scabs on her neck that weren't growing any fur back. Then I realized, those aren't scabs not healing, those are SCARS. And those scars were the size of pencil erasers.

I figured it out - the person that had Leia before me was putting their cigarette butts out on Leia's neck (she was only 8 months old when I adopted her, so presumably for most of her life before the shelter) and that's why it was only SOME of the people that came up to her. Not everyoen that pet her was a smoker, so it explained why she was scared of people only after they went ot touch her - because she could smell the smoke on their hands from holding their cigarettes and it probably triggered her to protect herself when she saw a hand that smelled like that coming towards her.

After then we just politely told everyone that we knew smoked, or asked strangers if they smoked to just not pet her and explained why. Everyone was pretty cool with it, most felt bad for her, and about a year after I adopted her she was totally over it. No issues whatsoever. Still couldn't smoke a cigarette around her, but she was okay being touched after smoking. Now she doesn't care one way or another, no big deal at all.

Moral of this story even though my dog has never bit anyone - sometimes the strangest thing will trigger a dog. You really have to look and think about if there's a pattern. Since I don't smoke and nobody else in my family or my boyfriend at the time's family smoked, that was the farthest thing from my mind. We couldn't figure out what the heck was wrong with her and worried she was always going to be nervous and afraid of people like that.

Once we figured out what we getting her upset, we could work with her on getting used to what bothered her over time. You however need to change these behaviors now - and a shock collar is not the way to do it, sorry to say. I know it seems like such a drastic measure will help this situation given the severity of it, but it *will* only make it worse.

[Deleted]

I agree with Vanessa about the muzzle. what we did when we had our fear biter is bought a wire cage muzzle from morrocopets.com because dogs seem to not be bothered with them as much. it is also good for you at the same time. that is because it will make you more relaxed which will make him relax more. we would put the muzzle on her and take her somewhere every day where there are animal friendly places like pet stores. we brought treats and asked people to give her treats and eventually to pet her. we explained to the person that she is a fear biter and the muzzle is for everyones safety and that we were trying to socialize her. even with her being a pit bull, most people were willing to help. do not try this without the muzzle until the dog has had appropriate behavior for a couple of months. this will be a long process but well rewarding. everything that I am telling you is what our trainer had me do. also don't forget to reward your dog with lots of praise when it presents proper behavior.